Passive Aggressive Pirates.

[TommyShelby]

A few minutes ago the pirates were trying to attack Puerto Del Padre. Several US frigates bravely attacked the pirate main fleet to delay the attack long enough for the US main fleet to arrive. The US frigates were sunk but held out long enough for the main fleet to arrive. 
 

When the main fleets were about to face off (atleast that's what it looked like) several of the US ships were tagged independently by smaller ships.

 

While the whole "Split up the enemy fleet if possible" is a valid strategy. Griefing is not. 

 

Imo. it's fine if someone splits up the enemy fleet and actually fight in these battle that they start. But if they have no intention of fighting but instead just want to sit far away and pepper you with shots that do no damage but keeps you tagged then that is what i see as griefing.

We sent our frigates in to actually fight the Pirate Flag Carrier, they all sank, but they managed to fight for long enough to let our main fleet arrive.

 

I was in my Santi and was tagged by a Connie and a Trinc. At first i sat there with my sails furled since i really just wanted to get out and help the main fleet. 

They stayed far away and downwind so that they could use the heel to have even longer range. After five minutes i got tired of them sitting there so i figured, i'll set sail and go towards them. As i started to come closer they immediately ran further downwind so that they again were at max range where they were unable to do any damage.

 

In my opinion this is Griefing, What does the community think?

 

Edit; Screenshot removed.

Edited January 8, 2016 by TommyShelby

[Scorpio Shirica]

Seems a valid strategy for smaller ships to keep larger ones engaged. They can dodge fire while distracting ships of the line. Infuriating, but a way for smaller ships to even the odds against ships of the line. Since SOLs are generally larger and slower, this would give smaller ships a more defined role and ensure that SOL's are not going to be the forever end all goal for people. 

 

From what I understand, these frigates were of the opposing faction and not abusing tagging or anything.

 

Maybe in the future, ensure SOL's are kept with frigate escorts so the frigates can drive off any enemy ships trying to keep it engaged?

[Captain Black]

This ins't the thread for a what does the community think topic, but it's a valid tactic however pointless.

[Westgate]

I agree with Scorpio. It is a valid strategy, albeit infuriating for the SOL player, and reinforces why SOL captains need to have an escort fleet with them.

[Kutai]

This has been made in an attempt to divert the fact that we have raised a Tribunal incident against Tommy Shelby. At no point in that picture do you see me stating anything that would be considered passive aggressive. 

 

Allow me to explain the entire situation.

 

The Pirate fleet was in the process of moving to cap another US town after we had just captured one. One of their cutters managed to drag in a large amount of our fleet along with several large NPC US ships. After we managed to get out of this we were slightly split and unable to get the flag to the port we needed to so we held up in a friendly port. Unable to leave the port, one of our ST Pavels attacked the US fleet in an attempt to allow our Santi and the flag to leave. Just as our Santi was leaving with the flag the US players managed to get out of their battle. The US has 2 Santis, A Vic and several frigates. Myself and my friend managed to single out Tommy Shelby in his Santi, in our Frigates and pull him into a battle almost at the same time that the US guys pulled our Santi into combat. So it split into two fights.

 

Shortly after we engaged the Santi, two US frigates with full NPC accompaniment joined. They chose to leave while we kept attacking the Santi attempting to demast it while staying at max range. Tommy then began to complain that we were griefing him and gave up trying to fight us as we managed to outmanoeuvre and out range him. 

[Scorpio Shirica]

Hey mate, he asked at the bottom of his original post what the community thinks, just responding to that. If it ain't wanted, then my apologies. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Scorpio Shirica

[Snoopy]

It pretty much is griefing because they are wasting your time.. if it had been an isolated incident I'd say it is not kosher, however, with a PB in play I think it becomes almost acceptable.

Their tribunal case is laughable though and they should be fined for wasting the courts time.

 

[manuva85]

How does it differs from me demasting someone and than tagging you from distance purposly to hold you in battle for whole timer. You say viable tactic i say asshattery. If someone did it to you, you wouldnt like it. I dont want meeting ppl in open world whoes whole idea of fun is keeping you in fight without any will to actuall fight.

[admin]

Lets again not mix up issues from another topic

 

I asked Tommy to discuss it separately because its important and this issue will come again and again in the future.

We have to design the ruleset and this is one of the rules that was not clear 

 

If you attack and do nothing. 

What is it? Kutuzov Strategy? Or something else.

 

Lets discuss. Without naming names, pirates, usa etc.. 

[Puchu]

It certainly is a strategy that uses the current tagging mechanics to keep someone out of a more important battle. 

 

The Pirates never had the chance to sink Tommy in his Santi, they didnt get into effective fighting range either (that's why full broadsides of them did 0 damage) 

The more players we have on the server, the more this strategy will be used to keep the important ships out of fights, without risking anything. 

It was tommys fault not to bring long guns, but even if he had, he also would not have been able to sink anyone of them at that range. 

 

I dont know what the exact definition for "Griefing" is, but in this instance someone was kept in battle, without anyone actually having the intention or ability of sinking or captureing the enemy.

 

If i would have been tommy, i would be furiously angry about the fact that this is 1possible, and 2ppl are using this strategy.

 

But again, as allways: If it's possible, it will be done. 

 

 

One way to solve this issue might be a distance based tagging system. (It would also make ships without chasers viable)

[Scorpio Shirica]

I maintain that it is a strategy, a lame and potentially infuriating strategy, but a strategy. It'd also encourage rate ships to not reinforce battles without an escort and give frigates or smaller ships a more defined role. 

 

I feel bad for those caught in it, but I think it would be poor form to force others into fighting with honor. If they want to be known as honorless knaves that will resort to cheap and underhanded tactics, then I think they should be able to do so.

[Kutai]

I am sorry but I do not see how I am being passive aggressive at all in this. We pulled in Shelby in his Santi and he brought with him 2 US players in frigates. The Frigates ditched him. We were attempting to de mast the Santi so that we could then out manuvour and attack him proper. What you are basically saying here is that because you are a higher ranked player in a larger and better armed ship, you should be immune to frigates attacking you? 

 

I have only been playing this game for a few weeks. So excuse me if I have broken a rule here in attempting to attack and sink something that may be out of my league. However I thought we were doing a very good Job in avoiding his broadsides while putting fire back into him. We used the wind to keep him away from us and eventually he gave up and decided to just sit there and whine at us in chat while we continued to chip away at his masts until he left the battle. If it had continued and we managed a demast then we would have split and approached closer in an attempt to cause more significant damage. However we were not about to rush a Santi while its masts were still up. This is a valid strategy and I believe one that was used in real life when attacking larger and less agile ships with smaller frigates. We are not going to duke it out at close range with something that could turn us to splinters with a single broadside. We were also not in cutters, we were in a Constitution and a Tricom. Both of which are capable of penetrating the Santi armour. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kutai

[Krists]

Tommi, your cutter, who was trying to drag our fleet into battle and then Consta, who shot and then ran away, passive or aggressive? It's just a game mechanic which all enjoy.

[B4NGSPL4T]

Splitting up a fleet to attack them independently is a great tactic. Starting a battle just to sit on the edge of range and keep someone in battle with no intention of fighting is not.

You can put a pig in a dress and makeup but it is still a pig. This is an abomination of a valid tactic and is in as many words, griefing.

[TommyShelby]

I am sorry but I do not see how I am being passive aggressive at all in this. We pulled in Shelby in his Santi and he brought with him 2 US players in frigates. The Frigates ditched him. We were attempting to de mast the Santi so that we could then out manuvour and attack him proper. What you are basically saying here is that because you are a higher ranked player in a larger and better armed ship, you should be immune to frigates attacking you? 

 

No that is not what i am saying Kutai. 

Over the course of 30 minutes you did 4% sail damage to me and killed 1 Crew. 

How do you ever think you would demast me within 90 Minutes? 

After 90 minutes we would have all left the battle, me having taken approx 12% sail damage. 

It had been something else if you were within effective range of your own cannons..

[Konali89]

You start a battle with the intention to have a fight/ destroy the enemy.

Any other intention is griefing.

Whether griefing in relation to PB's is ok i dont know

[Kutai]

No that is not what i am saying Kutai. 

Over the course of 30 minutes you did 4% sail damage to me and killed 1 Crew. 

How do you ever think you would demast me within 90 Minutes? 

After 90 minutes we would have all left the battle, me having taken approx 12% sail damage. 

It had been something else if you were within effective range of your own cannons..

 

At that range we could not see what damage you had taken. We were sure we were hitting your masts consistently because we were effectively keeping you in battle. Which means by your own words we were getting penetration against your masts. Also Sails do not give an accurate representation of mast damage as far as I can tell. Sails can be 99% then drop instantly to 50% with the demasting of a ship.

[Krists]

SOL does not fly alone !!!!!! ))

[Kutai]

You start a battle with the intention to have a fight/ destroy the enemy.

Any other intention is griefing.

Whether griefing in relation to PB's is ok i dont know

 

Again, The Santi brought 2 other US players with him in frigates who could have engaged us. They also brought NPCs with them. They chose to retreat from the battle and leave us fighting the Santi. We are not then going to retreat from the fight but instead we are going to do everything we can in order to inflict damage upon the ship we are fighting. 

[Scorpio Shirica]

Wait. They had two frigates with the Santi as escort to begin with? Why did they leave their Santi alone? Shouldn't they have made sure the Santi' got out before leaving?

 

I'm a bit confused as to that point.

 

I know my own guild has left me in my Consti behind to protect a First Rate  class ship. I sure as hell wasn't going to leave before the more important ship got out.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Scorpio Shirica

[Puchu]

Discussing the Tagging mechanics:

 

Do you guys think that a distance based tagging system might force people to be in effective gun range to keep someone tagged?

 

Maybe depending on the guns used? Long guns ofc would have longer effective range than carronades. It's just an idea, but it might be a way to prevent pure tagging instances.

 

If you want to keep someone in an instance you need to at least risk your ship and give the one that is being held out of the other battle an actual chance to fight himself out of that situation.

 

(Btw.: I aggree, that it's a valid strat to isolate a straggler that was sailing to a big battle by himself)

 

Edit: right now Kutai, there are Battlelogs you can look at and with those you can see if you are actually doing damage. The "hit" keeps you in battle, the "damage" keeps the enemy in battle. 

[Kutai]

Wait. They had two frigates with the Santi as escort to begin with? Why did they leave their Santi alone? Shouldn't they have made sure the Santi' got out before leaving?

 

I'm a bit confused as to that point.

 

I know my own guild has left me in my Consti behind to protect a First Rate  class ship. I sure as hell wasn't going to leave before the more important ship got out.

 

That is the thing. He had two frigates + accompanying NPC fleets with him. All of which left while he attempted to rush us to kill us. We out manoeuvred him. Our intention was to single him out from the rest of his fleet yes but it was not to try and keep him pointlessly in combat but to actually sink it. We are not however going to exchange broadsides with the Santi. We were aiming to demast it so we could get around his broadsides and begin raking him or punching through his armour at a closer range. 

[Prater]

It doesn't matter.  This is a tribunal case, not a discussion on why a player not part of Tommy's clan left the battle early.

[Kutai]

It doesn't matter.  This is a tribunal case, not a discussion on why a player not part of Tommy's clan left the battle early.

 

Yes it does matter. We picked a fight with ships that should have easily have been able to run us down and engage us in combat. They chose to leave while Shelby attempted to engage us. That is not our issue. If Shelbys team mates decide to abandon him then that is something you need to discuss with them. Not point the finger at the enemies and attempt to blame them. There are disadvantages to being in such a large and cumbersome ship, if he is caught without his entourage then he is basically caught with his pants down. 

[Puchu]

Prater, actually admin turned into a tagging and ruleset discussion