Naval Action - Cannons

[admin]

PS - Wanted to post this asap so some pics are in russian - will translate soon.

 

Before next round of focus testing we will post a couple of articles discussing game mechanics. 

First post - on Naval Action artillery. 

 

Game has complete and realistic ballistics that takes into account all major elements of Age of sail naval cannon combat 

 

 

 

Current system takes into account the height of gundecks, angles of cannons to horizon and both potential trajectories - direct or indirect. 

For cannons and carronades we limit the vertical angles, allowing us to implement two types of artillery - cannons and mortars. 

According to sources, vertical angle could be raised up to 15 degrees, and horizontal angle could be turned 40 degrees. In our game we have reduced these parameters, as some of the testers did not like how they worked in gameplay. 

 

 

Firing mechanics depends on multiple elements: from the ship itself, to the crew to cannons. 

 

• Ship gundeck length determines the width of the fire sector and ability to turn cannons horizontally. 
• Cannons determine distance, accuracy and speed of cannon positioning (heavier cannons are harder to move around) 
• Crew determines speed of targeting, accuracy and cannon positioning speed. 

Depending on the length of the ship and the placement of cannons on the gundeck we calculate the length of the fire sector. Sector is used in the determination of the area where cannonballs land. We calculate the position of every cannon and cannonball spread, to determine where shots land. 

 

Circle (determined by cannons)

Ellipses (determined by gunpowder)

 

For the calculation of spread we use two parameters:

Horizontal spread at 100 meters is used in the cannon broadside calculation. For example with the spread increase of 5 meters every 100 meters we get 15 meters by 300. Gunpowder quality determines a vertical spread that increases or decreases the power of the shot - changing distance as a result.

 

For the multiple shot probability we use binomial distribution that looks like this for 2000 shots

 

Example of the shot from 4 cannons:

 

 

Dead zone

Because you can lower your cannons only to a certain degree and height of upper gundecks exceeds total height of smaller vessels, there is a deadzone for all gundecks except lowest one. 

 

As you can see below, heavy lineships do not fire effectively against small vessels, giving a small advantage for the latter ones. Moreover because of the gundeck length, a broadside from Victory will be even less effective: the length of the fire zone is longer than the length of a small ship for example Cutter. 

 

 

 

Elements described above can help us implement any type of cannon: cannons, carronades, mortars, land batteries. 

 

In case of drastically different cannons on different gundecks some of the decks will not fire if their maximum firing distance is shorter than the distance requested by the captain through the aim. 

 

Visualization of fire sector 

For the ease of understanding where you can shoot and to what distance, we draw a transparent sector on water, that shows (to the extent) the zone where the broadside could land. Because we don't want to draw multiple sectors the system always uses worst possible parameters for the visualization of the final fire sector. 

For example:

• Lower gundeck spread is 5 meters per 100m and upper deck is 10 meters per 100 meters
• Lower gundeck cannons get full aim in 4 seconds and upper gundeck in 2 seconds 

Because of this the sector shows - aiming 4 seconds and spread 10 meters per 100 meters. But of course your better parameters are taken into account so your best cannons get best spread

 

Heel (roll) affect fire significantly 

Ship heels and rolls depending on the hull position and open sails.

With the negative angle of the hull of more than 5 degrees you on average lose all vertical angle change potential. And thus you lose almost all distance potential. On the positive angle of the hull you can fire a lot further, but the cannon deadzone increases accordingly. In the latter case you will only be able to shoot the rigging of the ship close by.  

 

 

Types of cannons

Current cannons are the exact copies of the British standard iron cannons made by Armstrong factory. They are made based on drawings from http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fitting-English-1600-1815-Conways-History/dp/0851774512. 

 

We plan to have lots of options based on the historical artillery. 

Cannons will differ in damage, distance, spread and reload speeds based on:

• Length of barrel
• Quality of materials
• Factory making cannons (for example Swedish high quality iron long barreled cannons will be a lot better than similar barbary corsairs artillery) 
• Carriage and tackle

Cannons currently can be destroyed by receiving damage to hull. We have not made cannons explode, because we have not found sources that told about mass cannon explosions due to use. Also we consider that Admiralty somehow checks cannons before shipping them to the Navy. 

 

Damage. 

Damage depends on the ball weight and type of cannon. The change is not linear and is not final and will be reworked constantly while we are adding more ships into our line up. 

 

Ships does not have Hit Points (HP) and sink due to structural damage of hull that leads to leaks. 

Cannonballs after hitting the hull continue their way and can destroy or damage internal modules, crew, cannons and other side of the hull. 

We consider that ball disappear after touching water. 

 

Aiming

We have tested different options for the aiming. 

In the current version of the game we assume that:

• Cannon crews know how to set up cannon angle and know what distance that angle means.  For this we have lines on the aim showing approximate distance where cannonballs will land. 
• Captain can exactly determine the distance to the enemy ship. For that we show the exact distance above the target (but not further than ~800 m).

Previous versions of aim

In the early build versions we did not have aiming lines and did not show distance. The main goal of the player was to zero in on the target by shooting. 

In one of the future tests we will bring this aiming version to the build. This particular aiming type was closest to the real age of sail combat but it was considered very complex and extremely hard by many. 

 

The complexity shooting can be changed by us by changing the number of lines on the aim, or changing the quality of information given about the enemy ship.

 

One of the elements we plan to introduce is - the aiming shot - that will allow to shoot 1 cannon and determine the distance corresponding to the current chosen angle from the splash. Because there are a lot of cannons on the deck (except for very small vessels) players can zero in on the target very fast, giving distance information to the fleet that is waiting to fire. 

 

Switched off elements.

We have turned off some elements in the cannon fire mechanics.

In early versions of the game we had waves affect aim - awesome and very hardcore element of firing that was making our shooting 100% realistic.

 

Waves rolled your ship, giving you constant change of aim and because of that, the distance of firing could change from 0 to 1000 yards and back in 2 seconds. This was making ships fire only at pistol shot distance, because you had to catch the right moment and even if you knew angle and distance you still had to do a lot of thinking trying to catch a perfect wave for a shot.  Some of the players who learnt to use this feature well were able to land 2-3 broadsides from distance on rookies who were still trying to zero in on the target. 

 

end.

 

discuss, provide thoughts, ask questions... 

[fremen]

Awesome!

 

I remember reading about russian cannons exploding in line vessels in the Russian-Swedish Baltic wars between 1788-1790.

The intention of the designers is different cannons to different countries? 

 

One question: the firing is always a complete broadside? Can you firing only upper, middle, or below batteries at convenience?

 

Other question: The accuracy of the firing will be modify according crew level?

 

Thanks.

[Eul]

This looks pretty ossum, looking forward for it.

[Thomas Blackwell]

A very enlightening read. I'm sure this has been asked already in a previous thread somewhere, but will the height of the waves dictate whether or not I can open my lower gun-ports?

[Brigand]

Wow! These are a very likeable game mechanics! I'm really happy about what I'm reading here, and the promises it holds for the future.

Two things I would like to ask:
 

Damage.
Damage depends on the ball weight and type of cannon. The change is not linear and is not final and will be reworked constantly while we are adding more ships into our line up.

1. Why ball weight and type of cannon instead of ball weight and muzzle speed? Any reasons for this (such as ease of implementation for example) or just an arbitrary design decision?

I ask because you use real-world mechanics everywhere, except for this one thing. :-)

 

We consider that ball disappear after touching water.

 

2. Does this mean that it will be impossible to hit a hull below the water line?

 

 

All in all, once again, thumbs up big time!

 

Cheers,

Brigand

[CompassRose]

• Factory making cannons (for example Swedish high quality iron long barreled cannons will be a lot better than similar barbary corsairs artillery)

 

Is this statement a clue as to how in-depth you are hoping to make the economy?

[admin]

 

The intention of the designers is different cannons to different countries? 

 

One question: the firing is always a complete broadside? Can you firing only upper, middle, or below batteries at convenience?

 

Other question: The accuracy of the firing will be modify according crew level?

 

 

• There is no final decision on the country differences, but we know there were some differences in cannons from country to country.
• You can fire deck by deck. We need only to implement deck switches. Currently if one deck is not reloaded you will only fire from a loaded one.
• Accuracy depends on the patience (how long you wait for full aim) and will depend on crew skills once crew effects on ship parameters are implemented (currently it is very basic)

 

A very enlightening read. I'm sure this has been asked already in a previous thread somewhere, but will the height of the waves dictate whether or not I can open my lower gun-ports?

 

At this moment combat is complex enough to take it into account. We assume your deck officers know what to do and when (close open ports). But it is possible to have this feature. 

It for example also affects the potential feature of easing sail plan at extreme angles to wind - having too much sails in strong wind at 90 degrees could make you ship turn over. It is possible in the game but too heavy on the rookies. they will leave if they constantly die like in Potbs

 

Is this statement a clue as to how in-depth you are hoping to make the economy?

 

It is too early to tell

 

Two things I would like to ask:

 

1. Why ball weight and type of cannon instead of ball weight and muzzle speed? Any reasons for this (such as ease of implementation for example) or just an arbitrary design decision?

I ask because you use real-world mechanics everywhere, except for this one thing. :-)

 

2. Does this mean that it will be impossible to hit a hull below the water line?

 

 

1. Type of cannon determines muzzle speed - so long barreled 18lb cannon will have a different muzzle speed from light short barreled 18lb one.

2. It is possible, but if a large wave hides you from enemy then no. Also calculating complex water together with lots of cannonballs will stress the system too much.

[Barberouge]

The ballistic system is realistic and good. Not sure about the aiming system though.

 

 

1) The gunners are horizontally aiming. In the Dead zone paragraph, the picture shows parallel vertical shots. Are the gunners also vertically aiming (for each deck) ?

 

2) If the range of some decks is drastically shorter than others, the cannons won't shoot. But what about a broadside fired at point blank on a stern or bow (which widths are shorter than the lenght of the broadside) ?

 

3) The damage on crew could be higher when the ball would be fast enough to pass the planking but slow enough to create lots of wood splinters.

 

4) Maybe a simple water resistance parameter could be implemented to allow balls to hit below the waterline (as a modification of the speed of a ball, since you already know when it hits water).

 

 

About aiming, there's one thing you didn't mention which may help people understand the interest of the system: the balls travel slowly enough that it is required to apply an horizontal correction due to the ships speed (anticipation is required).

 

Also it isn't explained exactly how the horizontal fire sector visualization is working. In its initial shape, the transparent sector drawn on water is quite wide (bad accuracy). If we don't move the aim, the sector tightens during the timer needed to get the best accuracy (a few seconds). The more we then move the aim, the more the sector widens back (anticipation again).

 

 

5) "For this we have lines on the aim showing approximate distance where cannonballs will land." -> How does that distance change exactly, related to the real distance ?

 

 

My criticism of the aiming system is double:

 

6) The more time we spend aiming, the less time we spend looking at what happens in the battle. When we have to aim for each battery, we spend a lot of time aiming. I'd like to test a fully 3rd person aiming system which would enable us to look at the battle while aiming (aiming as a captain, not as a gunner). I'm thinking about melee fights mostly here.

 

7) I agree the system is a bit too simple with displayed distance of the target, distance on the notches, static deck and no wind correction. Very hardcore aiming as you described (non-static deck) would IMO be too difficult, especially if it would imply not only a vertical movement, but also an angular one (swell, roll and pitch).

 

 

EDIT: it's the aim movement which makes the fire sector widen, not the cannon movement.

[Pepper Spray]

This seems pretty realistic. I have the same question as someone above. Can you fire your decks in salvos or different times on multiple decks or is it complete broadsides? Can you mix type of ammo for each deck?

[Eul]

 

 

7) I agree the system is a bit too simple with displayed distance of the target, distance notches, static deck and no wind correction. Very hadcore aiming as you described (non-static deck) would IMO be too difficult, especially if it would imply not only a vertical movement, but also an angular one (swell, roll and pitch).

 

 

 

I totally agree here, it might become too difficult, resulting annoying after a while and too much intricate.

[Brigand]

May I suggest adding this post as a Developer's Blog on the Naval Action website?

 

It may get more exposure over there and not every potential player feels like reading through the forums.

 

~Brigand

[Ned Loe]

Very nice! 

 

---So, if I got 32 lbs on my ship it will take longer time for them to line up to get the max accuracy? (from full spread to 0 center spread). This means I will need to wait 5-10 more seconds compared to smaller guns, before I can order my crew to fire at optimal accuracy?

 

---Mortar shot will travel diagonal? so , this means we will need an aiming circle like in AC Black Flag?

 

---Where is a 100% accuracy on: 

Circle (determined by cannons)

Ellipses (determined by gunpowder)

 

is it a center of those 2? 

 

Circle (determined by cannons) - means the center of the circle is 100% accuracy and edge is 1%? same for Ellipse? or is it simply a cannon ball spread?

 

Red aiming point, will it be added to a game? Current aiming is very unclear, it is hard to determine the distance to a ship and where am I aiming. Not sure how others feel about it, but I would like to see a marker or a pointer that can be aimed first. Using an aiming pointer I then wait for my guns to line up for max accuracy. 

[Baggywrinkle]

Such such good information, thank you. General tone sounds very cool indeed, and displays the sort of approach that I'd love to see.

Some specific thoughts:

The fire zone sounds pretty spot on, but with aiming are there options to fire as a guns bear on the target? I'm thinking that much as I would enjoy personally aiming chasers, or longer range broadsides, I think in battle I would rather be thinking about vessel position and planning my next attack angle than worrying about split second timing on the fire button to allow for wave action. Which is not to say I think the 'hardcore' mechanics should be removed (I totally love that heel angle, waves etc make a difference, and think it's very nice to only have a ballpark figure, if anything, for target distance etc) but I wonder if there's a way to keep that level of detail with a little less compulsory micromanagement? A captain simulation rather than a gun captain simulation.

Loving what's been said about damage, music to my ears! I would be interested to hear whether bouncing shot off the sea (think the Wallis bouncing bomb) would be possible? I believe this technique was fairly popular, resulting in inflicting damage about the enemy's waterline.

Fantastic approach to gun stats and varieties. Do motors and land batteries mean that bomb ketches are on the cards?!

Keep up the good work, and the good communication. It's very much appreciated.

Baggy

[Johny Reb]

I would also like to see a "fire as you bear" feature. It allows you to use all your guns on a much smaller ship and is much more accurate to history i think. Other than that, I like what I am seeing so far. I would like to see how it works out in game play before I disagree on any of your mechanics.

[Chustler]

Very cool to see that these sorts of things are being taken into consideration.  I will echo others here.  The key here is going to be deciding how much is "automatic", and how much requires manual control.  Too much manual control is cumbersome and not fun, and too little is perhaps less fun game play.  This stuff sure looks great though 

 

Very excited to see things in action when the time comes.

[BrutishVulgarian]

I think I love you, Naval Action!   Thanks for the update, good news.

 

Maybe rookies could start with training wheels that keep them from capsizing when on a beam reach in a strong breeze.     Once they are hooked on the game, take away the training wheels.

 

I echo Baggywrinkle's question about skipping shot across the water,  I hope it's possible, because it sure would look cool. 

[maturin]

A "fire as they bear" command actually solves your two biggest problems.

Namely, how to rake a vessel's stern without missing shots, and how to time shots according to the roll of the vessel. Let the gunners decide the exact moment to shoot and you have effortless taking fire and realistic gunnery dependent on sea conditions.

Since you have such wonderfully detailed ballistics and mechanics, I would be very much in favor of basic gunnery being automated, like in PotBS or Total War.

And a note about waterline hits. Round shot doesn't travel through water well. The ship at risk to below waterline hits is the leeward combatant that is heeling. Otherwise, only hits right on or near the waterline will leak, when the vessel begins to heel or faces heavier seas.

[JaM]

from what i read, during 17-18.century, most captains just wanted to get as close as possible. Their guns were fired at no elevation. yet, even if ships were close, firing guns blindly into smoke was not very effective unless ships were literally right next to each other. It was not accuracy, but reloading speed capability that was highly praised in gunnery crews.

[maturin]

That was the British approach, anyway.

 

Most fleet battles never became a close-range melee, and success (if any!) hinged on longer range accuracy, which would have required elevating the gun or using the roll of the ship.

 

Reloading speed is king, but as Stalin never said, rate of fire has an accuracy all its own.

[BungeeLemming]

I have suggestion to do:

 

If we sail through the stern of an enemy let us shoot in divisions determined on the Numbers we have on the keyboard.

Lets say 4 or 5 guns per division so when I hit "1" tthe first 4 cannons fire, "2" the next 4 and so on.. As you intend on doing single shots to range the guns I guess this feature is not very hard to implement?

Right now we can not aim for proper stern rakes but this would hake things easier..

 

Firing per deck will be more interesting at nearer ranges than point blanc. cause I only want my lower decks to fire when the upper decks can not hit home. They may come into play when we disengage.

 

 

My personal experience on the aiming as it is now is: It needs some time getting used to but you can learn fast.

I would not mind a certain influence of waves to the aiming. Right now its practically no limitation at all.

The ranges displayed atm are very rookie friendly. I dont feel they are too much or too less.

 

About firing in general I will always agree on your own saying:

Dont make this game hardcore strategic but more intense.

I dont like to have the next game where I hit a button with my mouse and the cannoneers then shoot accurately.

This game must set apart from generic and oversaturated gameplay. And the way its going right now is good IMHO.

 

All your talk about cannon mechanics make sence. I totally like it. (I am aways eager to hear about game mechs. no matther wich game)

[JaM]

That was the British approach, anyway.

 

Most fleet battles never became a close-range melee, and success (if any!) hinged on longer range accuracy, which would have required elevating the gun or using the roll of the ship.

 

Reloading speed is king, but as Stalin never said, rate of fire has an accuracy all its own.

Not really... any gun fire at sea aimed at range greater than 400m was practically a waste of shot and powder... besides, large Ships of the Line had quite thick hulls, you needed heavy guns to penetrate them... everything below 18pdrs was considered inadequate to penetrate the hull of Ship of the Line...  shooting at greater range was possible, yet effects were minimal, mostly hitting sails.. French and Spanish usually opened fire at 400m, British usually held the fire until very close.. (pistol range)

 

And btw, rate of fire was what is actually mentioned with some exceptional crew... like for example crew of HMS Agamemnon  which was supposed to be able to fire 3-4x faster than French or Spanish crew... If you add to this their tactics to get close, their rate of fire was what decimated the enemy

[Oneironz]

I really like what I've read! Great approach to various kinds of cannons and their specifications, the aiming mechanics, show some information, but the user still has to rely on his own accuracy, that needs skill!

This is way, waaaay better than the cannon changes that are being implimented in Potbs, their idea is totally weird, relying on hard coded lines to control ranges... Not letting the cannons spcifications come into play, seriously, a 5 pdr can shoot almost as far as a 18pdr!

Anyways, good thinking and execution! Looking forward to the changes.

[Johny Reb]

That was the British approach, anyway.

 

Most fleet battles never became a close-range melee, and success (if any!) hinged on longer range accuracy, which would have required elevating the gun or using the roll of the ship.

 

Reloading speed is king, but as Stalin never said, rate of fire has an accuracy all its own.

Not to be knit-picky, but Trafalgar, The Nile, and Copenhagen were all at pretty close range. The battle of Copenhagen was considered at a longer range but that range was only 600 feet. The battle of Chesapeake Bay also looks like it was engaged at close range but I cant be sure since I never seen the range mentioned. Also, as you surely know since it was stated often enough in the Aubrey sagas , Nelson's philosophy was to go right at em.

[aristogato]

I really like what I've read! Great approach to various kinds of cannons and their specifications, the aiming mechanics, show some information, but the user still has to rely on his own accuracy, that needs skill!

This is way, waaaay better than the cannon changes that are being implimented in Potbs, their idea is totally weird, relying on hard coded lines to control ranges... Not letting the cannons spcifications come into play, seriously, a 5 pdr can shoot almost as far as a 18pdr!

Anyways, good thinking and execution! Looking forward to the changes.

 

I think pretty much the same. A game like this, so heavily based on combat MUST require a good amount hability, not becoming another mmo where the farming and gear (the ship in this case) is the only thing that matters. I would love to beat a far supieror ship because of my better strategy or aiming, not because my "level" or "crew skill" or "navycrafted cannons". Or worse, being forced to flee or doomed, because he farmed a better ship.

 

So thats why i dond understand pleople asking for an automated system. I dont like the idea of a random generator fighting my battles.

[Chilly Willy]

like what i see 

i like the idea of waves having an affect on aiming

one could fire at the crest of a wave and then hide in the trough

also what is the normal amount of time for reload, per cannon/broadside?