Ned Loe Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 What is depth of field? Depth of field refers to the range of distance that appears acceptably sharp. It varies depending on camera type, aperture and focusing distance, although print size and viewing distance can also influence our perception of depth of field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field What do you think about depth of field in Naval Action. Do we need it? DOF benefits : From my point of view I believe it can give players with mid range video cards ability to enjoy ultra settings. It will make textures on far objects (Mountains, water, textures etc.) smooth and could decrease gpu load. In this case you will have ultra details, textures etc.. on closer objects and your ship + high FPS rates. F32+ is current game setting. DOF currently used in other games. Please discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 No. It's realistic for still and motion photography, but the eye itself doesn't see that way. Your main eyepoint is always in focus, so having it in games makes them less "real" and more "cinematic" IMO. To wit - when I'm looking at something, it's in focus, even if the other focal planes are not. Those focal planes are in my peripheral vision though, so I can barely discern that they are not in focus. The moment my eye flicks up to something I want to see, that new item comes into focus. In the game, it doesn't know where I'm looking on the screen. So while it may have the decks nearby in focus, I really want to see the distant ship in focus instead. Having that ship out of focus doesn't make any sense. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) DOF could be great for telescope view (if historically accurate). Otherwise, I don't really see the point of it : most of the time, captains will focus on long range target. Edited April 20, 2015 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Loe Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 No. It's realistic for still and motion photography, but the eye itself doesn't see that way. Your main eyepoint is always in focus, so having it in games makes them less "real" and more "cinematic" IMO. To wit - when I'm looking at something, it's in focus, even if the other focal planes are not. Those focal planes are in my peripheral vision though, so I can barely discern that they are not in focus. The moment my eye flicks up to something I want to see, that new item comes into focus. In the game, it doesn't know where I'm looking on the screen. So while it may have the decks nearby in focus, I really want to see the distant ship in focus instead. Having that ship out of focus doesn't make any sense. But you can't see detailed ship a mile away, can you? We talking blur objects in far distances. Our eye can't pick details on far mountains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) But you can't see detailed ship a mile away, can you? We talking blur objects in far distances. Our eye can't pick details on far mountains. Isn't it a matter of size (of the object) and distance, and not of DOF ? Edited April 20, 2015 by LeBoiteux 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Isn't it a matter of size (of the object) and distance, and not of DOF ? Exactly. You reduce the model's detail at distance (to some degree, this is already done by the size of the pixels on the screen, but if you wanted to level the field for 1080p vs. 4k resolution viewers, you might "handicap" the detail) - but it's less a factor of "blur" and more a factor of just not rendering as much detail. The edges of the sails and hull are still crisp at distance (look at a mountain range that is 10 miles off on a clear day - you can see the mountain clearly), but discerning the number of gunports or the finer details is impossible (given that same mountain range, you can't see the individual trees at 10 miles away). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 depth of field works well in artistic games or movies. When you need to see a target clearly 1-2km away and see hits it might get tricky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) But you can't see detailed ship a mile away, can you? We talking blur objects in far distances. Our eye can't pick details on far mountains. I guess any weather condition plays a role too. Edited April 20, 2015 by LeBoiteux 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Loe Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 depth of field works well in artistic games or movies. When you need to see a target clearly 1-2km away and see hits it might get tricky What about open world only? I am not talking in battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Depth of field itself is completely pointless outside of a movie or photograph, and even then, DOF is only used in limited circumstances, namely to draw the eye to the main subject/character of the movie/photo. If you want to look out across a valley, do you focus your eye on a flower in the foreground? Or do you ignore that flower and focus your eye on the valley? Since the game doesn't know where you are looking at that moment, there is no way to intelligently control what is in focus. DOF is NOT a function of distance, it is a function of where you are focusing your camera. Your eyes flat out don't work that way - you don't look at a distant mountain while keeping your eyes focused on a nearby flower that is now in your peripheral vision. The reduced detail, not focus but detail, of a distant object is what makes the view true to life. Intentionally blurring part of the field of view in the game isn't a good idea. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) Depth of field itself is completely pointless outside of a movie or photograph, and even then, DOF is only used in limited circumstances, namely to draw the eye to the main subject/character of the movie/photo. If you want to look out across a valley, do you focus your eye on a flower in the foreground? Or do you ignore that flower and focus your eye on the valley? Since the game doesn't know where you are looking at that moment, there is no way to intelligently control what is in focus. DOF is NOT a function of distance, it is a function of where you are focusing your camera. Your eyes flat out don't work that way - you don't look at a distant mountain while keeping your eyes focused on a nearby flower that is now in your peripheral vision. The reduced detail, not focus but detail, of a distant object is what makes the view true to life. Intentionally blurring part of the field of view in the game isn't a good idea. +1. That's why I was talking about the telescope view : DOF could be great for telescope view (if historically accurate). But I don't know whether or not XVIII / XIXth-century telescopes generated DOF... Edited April 20, 2015 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) If it has a place in the game it would be telescope view only. The brain's image processing and constant refocussing of your eyes are hard at work to create an image that has no depth of field like a camera would. Having it in game would make it look unnatural; I doubt it would have much of a performance benefit either. I believe what the OP might have been getting at is a reduced level of detail (LOD) of more distant objects as an optimization - and by the looks of it Naval Action already uses it quite a bit. Edited April 20, 2015 by Snoopy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 What about open world only? I am not talking in battle. For ow we can experiment and add something to settings once detailed settings are provided 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 +1. That's why I was talking about the telescope view : But I don't know whether or not XVIII / XIXth-century telescopes generated DOF... That would be the only place it would have a use, and even then, only with regards to objects with disparate distance. E.g. you're focused on a distant ship, and a closer ship comes into your field of view - that closer ship would be out of focus until you refocused your telescope to account for the change in distance. It would be immersive to have a short delay before the differently distanced ship came into focus, but I'm not sure it's gameplay enhancing for now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) That would be the only place it would have a use, and even then, only with regards to objects with disparate distance. E.g. you're focused on a distant ship, and a closer ship comes into your field of view - that closer ship would be out of focus until you refocused your telescope to account for the change in distance. It would be immersive to have a short delay before the differently distanced ship came into focus, but I'm not sure it's gameplay enhancing for now. That's it. By the way, I think that would be just a cosmetic enhancement but a quite immersive one. Edited April 20, 2015 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 If you can change your focal point to see the distant ships without looking through a blur. Otherwise it will only be used for screenshots and trailers, and I think that time could be better used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 From my point of view I believe it can give players with mid range video cards ability to enjoy ultra settings. It will make textures on far objects (Mountains, water, textures etc.) smooth and could decrease gpu load. In this case you will have ultra details, textures etc.. on closer objects and your ship + high FPS rates. F32+ is current game setting. This isn't how it works. It makes your load more not less. Decreasing FPS, not increasing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B24LIBERATOR Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 In broad daylight your pupils will be very narrow like if you had your camera set to F:16 or so. Due to this, there would be very little DoF during daylight hours. If we had higher DoF during night time or a storm that might be cool, but I don't know how difficult it would be to code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galileus Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 In broad daylight your pupils will be very narrow like if you had your camera set to F:16 or so. Due to this, there would be very little DoF during daylight hours. Applying "BECAUSE REALISM!" to art is taking it too far. Seriously, all of ye, chill out with that "in real life...". I'm lacking words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Applying "BECAUSE REALISM!" to art is taking it too far. Seriously, all of ye, chill out with that "in real life...". I'm lacking words. This is a discussion forum sir. There is room for everyone's point of view. If you disagree with what has been stated, please make a case for this being "art" and logicallly refute the points made so far, or further explain why the suggested feature would create better gameplay, don't attack the people expressing their views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 In broad daylight your pupils will be very narrow like if you had your camera set to F:16 or so. Due to this, there would be very little DoF during daylight hours. If we had higher DoF during night time or a storm that might be cool, but I don't know how difficult it would be to code. There is more than you think. Try looking at a parking lot. Slowly bring your eyes from car to car, starting in the nearest row and working out towards the street, selecting a car that is quite near the previous one you're focused on. You'll be surprised. When it comes to extremely distant objects though (say, starting at 100 or more yards away), your eyes are almost focused at the equivalent of infinity - there will be almost no focus change as you look farther and farther out. This is a combination of the apparent F-stop, but also the apparent focal length of the eye (around 50mm or so for a 35mm image format, 28mm for a "DX" style 1.5 crop digital sensor) compared to, say, using a lens with a high degree of zoom such as a telescope. For those new to photography, depth of field is a function of the aperture (the size of opening through which the light is entering), the focal length of the lens (the more zoom, the "longer" the lens or telescope, the more potential depth of field is created), and the distance of the subject to the camera (the closer the distance, the more potential depth of field). Some of my shorter lenses, when the aperture is "wide open" on a subject that is 6 feet away, have just a few inches of depth which will be in focus. A fun image to illustrate: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeRuyter Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Interesting concepts and ideas, but I my comment at this point would be that it should be far down on the development/coding priority list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Loe Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 The effect also called Tilf-Shif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Tilt-shift is above all an effect for (2D) photography. As an artistic effect, it is a matter of taste... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt–shift_photography) So why not in NA as an option in the graphics panel ? Personally, I've disabled this option while playing Ultimate General Gettysburg... (Pictures : http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/ultimate-general-pre-release-patch-3) To me, it looks too artificial. The map of Ultimate General Gettysburg has looked quite "2D". And UG Gettysburg Devs wrote in patch notes : "Tilt-Shift: We’ve deployed the first version of our unique image filter that makes the battlefield appear more 3D" To them, it was a way of "enhancing 3D depth". Not sure that is necessary for NA. Edited April 21, 2015 by LeBoiteux 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B24LIBERATOR Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) As LeBoiteux said, tilt shift is an effect. I'd like the game to look realistic, not artsy/photoshopped. I'm not sure what Henry was getting at. Edited April 23, 2015 by B24LIBERATOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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