When does a game in development lose its way?

[SYN_Bloody-Bandy]

Some very fine posts and perspectives in this thread since I departed.  Much to reflect on and be positive about.

 

As I mentioned earlier (and which seemed to be swept under and lost by the rash of ugly posts) I put my neck out somewhat and highly recommended NA to my squadmates.  About a dozen so far have made the jump on board and we're having a lot of fun, even in alpha (and many swore off buying yet another alpha...), so I'd hate to see them disappointed after my encouragement. 

 

The apparent rise of opinions/posts wanting to see no consequences to loosing their ship in the persistent world (as well as other more gamey bits) was a bit of a shock after where I thought NA was going.  Then to read from admin that they "hadn't decided how it would be handled" was more shocking.  Then this thread popped up and I swallowed the hook.  So forgive me for my aggressive stand in defence of more realistic game mechanics, though many of you have posted likes for my posts here, so I cannot be too far away from the core community.

[Cuthbert Collingwood]

In terms of dumbing things down to please a wider audience and ruining the game my experience of that was the Silent Hunter series. SH4 great and also can be damned hard... SH5 Oh God Why !!!!! Needless to say I still play SH4 and try not to think about SH5.

 

  What would I like to see ? Ok in an ideal World a game that could give the player a variety of paths to take, Keep it real. A brig is a brig, if you don't like it sail a different class of ship. For those who like the Ship Of The Line have the big battles and bun fights. Keep the sailing mechanincs accurate, it is what makes it so different from other eras. Keep the ship classes accurate each has their advantages and disadvantages. Yes the Constitution is damn near as powerful as a third rate but the Trincomalee is faster and nimbler not to mention cheaper to build.

   Also have different ways of making a living. For frigates and smaller how about comerce rading and prize money.

Perhaps a trading mechanism for those who want to build a fortune as a mercantile marine captain or trader. That could also provide an income stream fort a bit of piracy or privateers, which in turn could provide a policing role for naval frigate captains and the like.

It is no small challenge but as in the likes of Eve Online I would hope it could be possible to provide a World in wgich there is diverse interlinked ways of existing.

[AlabastarEpic]

This has been really mild and we'll run compared to the POTBS board. Just wait until some of those players find their way here.....UGLY it will be.

AND SO,We shall Go to War!

Quote:Pirates of the Carribean At Worlds End

[Meraun]

As this game ramps up and more and more "noise" is added to the development stages and more and more diverse and conflicting ideas come to the fore. There is a good chance that the original game plan will change and turn from its original intent turning the original community against it. 

 

I have just been reading how this happened to POTBS.... a lot of the BETA and original crew thought they were getting one thing and as the wider community joined the game turned much more arcade like. 

 

I believe it is important to stay true to what the games original intent is and be very very careful about turning it away from it's original script. The temptation is that it will not be realised what harm some of these seemingly harmless ideas can do to a community.

 

I point to nothing in particular but am seeing a rise in people asking for a game more on the side of a disney adventure than a game with real mechanics and an open world. This game should be like no other. Achieve what no other has and stay true to it's historical base. 

 

* I don't want a stats based MMO. I don't want to careen my vessel and have it give +10% speed. I want to be able to careen    and try it out after to see how much faster it makes me. I basically do not want the starcraft boys making excel                          spreadsheets to work out the best builds. Leave things human and the stats hidden. 

* I don't want to win battles single handedly with my sword when boarding

* I don't want to see ridiculous colour schemes

* I don't want to see fantasy and magic

* I don't want to see pirates in first rates

* I do not want to see cartoon like avatars

* I do not want to see +1 and +2 floating up from my ship while the crew aim the guns for me

* I do not feel the need to walk into town and tell stories about gold and how tough I am

* 

 

* I do want it to be fun

* I do want to see the thousands of possible historical ships

* I do want to see realistic customisation and options

* I do want to see organised navies

* I do want as many sailing mechanics as possible

* I do want to see diverse maps that include storms, rocks, tides, depth soundings and varied bottom depths

* I do want to see varied wind maps, gusts, speed increases and decreases etc

* I can handle a little compromise WHERE NECESSARY for current technology and the base level of player skill but expect      the          most basic things to be kept in game. I would hate it for instance if being taken aback was taken out because of players    not                 understanding it. It is encumbant on the player to understand things that make sailing, well, sailing. Players must be willing to do more    than expect to drive a car in the sea as in black flag. Otherwise the core player base will most likely move away because the game becomes just another "theme" based game like world of tanks with no base in reality and thus no point playing. May as well play something else that is not just skinned with a theme but plays like any other experience and could have a space ship skin just as easily.

* I would like to see lookouts and crew repeat orders back so you know they are understood.

* I want to be able to have my crew managed and become more experienced. 

* I want to be able to choose how many of each type of crew is in my ship - gunners, topmen, waisters etc and what proportion I have stationed where in the ship.

* I want to be able to include marines in the crew and have them fire muskets

 

There are basically two schools of thought here on the forums.

The earlier more technical schools of though focussed on sailing mechanics and battle realism and the later population that has more of a proportion or role players and more character focussed play who like to dress things and run off on their own. I like a game with a feeling that you and your crew are human but personally do not feel the need to be portrayed as the centre of attention - i.e. a hero.

 

Don't get me wrong. I like a human element. But I personally at least do not want the game to get out of control in that direction and leave the main part of the game, sailing, to rot.

 

Just some random thoughts as I see the population now creating a lot of noise in a lot of directions with a lot of different expectations. It is easy to lose your way in this sea of noise and end up with an arcade game as I am told POTBS was - even though it seems like it was the only game in town forcing many to play it.

 

What do we want to bring away from the game. What will we say when we finish putting hours of game time in? I learnt something, that was different, that was fun or just another MMO like all the others. Level ups and upgrades grinding with a fun party theme?

thats quite a lot of  "i want" and "i dont want"

 

some people will have different pictures for the game in their head. you gotta respect taht.

 

but, i personally agree with most of waht you said.

 

but i disagree with the following:

 

- pirates not in a first rate ship  = yes but obviously only for NPC pirats

-i dont like cartoon charaterks neither, but thats ever players own choice.. you cant just forbit animepic just because you dont like them (i fucking hate them). Its a player choice.

-i personaly woud like to walk around in towns, because i make me feel the game better

-i woud prefer as many manually sails functions as possible with a bonus on speed and manouver, but also with an automatik sails system (basicly the it is now)

[Destraex]

Meraun this is what I mean. The vision has to stay the course no matter how many diverse opinions are put forward.

The mission statement must not err or we end up with something that tries to please everybody.

 

My impression is a game vision is one that plays like an Aubrey novel (an impression given by the devs from the beginning). Historical but being able to make ones own adventure within it. Everything in the world as it should be historically without any disney non-sense. Everything working according to it's physical limits according to the laws of nature. So no brigs being balanced, just brigs working according to historical accuracy. It is what it is.

I imagine if anime avatars turned up in an Aubrey novel most people would be like WTF? 

 

This game could be definitive if it does not lose it's way. But so many expect a game that is not special but that plays like WOW or WOT or War Thunder. Endless balancing and another faceless MMO with standard classes and rock paper scissors. Not a game about sailing. 

 

I actually think it would be cool for the devs to publish a mission statement so we know what the end game is. But it has also been stated that the game will evolve with the community. Which is why I fear we are in for a slow devolution.

[Meraun]

Meraun this is what I mean. The vision has to stay the course no matter how many diverse opinions are put forward.

The mission statement must not err or we end up with something that tries to please everybody.

 

My impression is a game vision is one that plays like an Aubrey novel (an impression given by the devs from the beginning). Historical but being able to make ones own adventure within it. Everything in the world as it should be historically without any disney non-sense. Everything working according to it's physical limits according to the laws of nature. So no brigs being balanced, just brigs working according to historical accuracy. It is what it is.

I imagine if anime avatars turned up in an Aubrey novel most people would be like WTF? 

 

This game could be definitive if it does not lose it's way. But so many expect a game that is not special but that plays like WOW or WOT or War Thunder. Endless balancing and another faceless MMO with standard classes and rock paper scissors. Not a game about sailing. 

 

I actually think it would be cool for the devs to publish a mission statement so we know what the end game is. But it has also been stated that the game will evolve with the community. Which is why I fear we are in for a slow devolution.

 

 

i see your points and they are valid.  but you are an pessimist :-)

We will see,  i have faith in the Dev's, enspecial Darth, ,since i have been playing his mod for ages and saw how he stick's to accuracy. i believe

we wont see any kind of arcady game.

[Dagann]

It seems there is a group of players, wandering from game to game, in search of the Grail of historical games. I hope NA will be this very game.

Like many others, i come from War Thunder.

In fact i left World of tanks, disgusted by the "balance" and aracdish spirit, to join War Thunder, attracted by the promise of historicity and realism.

Hélas, promises only bind those who believe in them.

As a result, the ground forces release was a fiasco (even if a few improvements can be noted for a few months).

 

Historcal accuracy is the only way to go. Tempering with historical stats makes and insipid game.

But not only i hope NA devs will stick to historical sources and figures, but will also be careful and objective when examining historical sources.

Cause there are many ways to interpret sources, and it's quite easy or tempting to see whatever you want to see (as Gaijin did).

[admin]

We are not planning to dumb down the game. We don't have plans to cater to millions. We need to sell 100,000 copies and have 10000 live players to be happy, providing good income for dev team. We know that niche products can make good money (Porsche). 

 

There will be no +1 +2 flying numbers on the screen. But we are sure some modders will implement them. 

There will be no sword fighting - we don't have people who can do it well. 

 

But upgrades and better officers will be in game. You will be able to capture or craft ships from better wood, or forge better cannons from better iron. 

On the pirates in first rates we cannot guarantee it - we have provided the calculation in this topic http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/537-the-economy-and-1st-rates/?p=22625 

 

in 1800 Prices

Cost of HMS Victory (and it was kind of low on decor) was 64,000 pounds. Before Nelson got it it was refurbished and repaired for another 73000 pounds. 

 

approximate numbers

• Average pay for a ship of the line captain was 35 pounds per month.
• Average prize money for a non private ship was 275 pounds (sometimes more, more often less)
• Cost of salaries for a 1st rate were more than 2000 pounds per month

So using realistic 1800 prices you need to capture 236 average ships for the admiralty (cos they keep the ship) to support the cost of the 1st rate. + You need around 2000-3000 pounds per month to maintain the ship

 

If you are capturing for yourself (pirating)- and selling ships you will need less than 236 ships (eg you caught a trader with diamonds). One of the testers McDoran - has like 700 battles already. Probably he will be a solo pirate in game. He won 50% of them - meaning he captured 350 ships.

 

Thus - pirates sailing first rates is possible in the game environment. 3 months of daily gameplay and very active players can have a first rate cost equivalent in their pocket. Unless we adjust the pricing of first rates to make them possible only as National projects (a-la wonders in Civilization games)

 

Most of you have already seen more battles than an average captain of that time. Many of you want to have a first rate in the dock.. 

[SYN_Bloody-Bandy]

Thank you Admin for clarification on your team's position, it is sincerely appreciated.

 

Whether pirates can afford a 1st rate is one thing (and you've shown it is theoretically possible), but whether they can effectively keep it is another.  I imagine that once a pirate group acquires one they will be targeted and neutralized quite effectively by nations.  It simply can't outrun pursuing frigates, who will with shear numbers overwhelm it.  A pirate 1st rate is simply untenable, but people will try...  hell I might as well

 

It seems there is a group of players, wandering from game to game, in search of the Grail of historical games.

Like many others, i come from War Thunder... attracted by the promise of historicity and realism.

 

 

Off topic, but I don't understand why all the talk of 'War Thunder' as some mecca of historical accuracy, now fallen.  There are some really fine combat flight sims out there, Rise of Flight (since 2009), Battle of Stalingrad now, Cliffs of Dover (nicely patched up by 3rd party), DCS,  but you should get a joystick to be competive in them.  Is the joystick such a barrier?  No judgement meant, just curious.

[StaleMemes]

It will be an honor to be one of those 100,000 o7

[Hethwill]

Historical accuracy is not found on ANY mainstream games. EVER.

 

How many play HistWar ? Scourge of War ? Command Ops ? War in the Pacific ? All these are high water marks in historical accuracy at all levels.

 

There is a reason for it. They are very demanding on their learning curve. Therefore the population is low.

 

Historical accuracy and historical credibility are not the same thing.

 

Naval Action is highly credible, not highly accurate.

[Meraun]

Historical accuracy is not found on ANY mainstream games. EVER.

 

How many play HistWar ? Scourge of War ? Command Ops ? War in the Pacific ? All these are high water marks in historical accuracy at all levels.

 

There is a reason for it. They are very demanding on their learning curve. Therefore the population is low.

 

Historical accuracy and historical credibility are not the same thing.

 

Naval Action is highly credible, not highly accurate.

and it needs to be, if it want's to live as long as EvE

[Hethwill]

Sorry, not a point & click mouse pointer simulator fan myself so I fail miserably at connecting both games other than the multiplayer aspect.

[Dagann]

Off topic, but I don't understand why all the talk of 'War Thunder' as some mecca of historical accuracy, now fallen. There are some really fine combat flight sims out there, Rise of Flight (since 2009), Battle of Stalingrad now, Cliffs of Dover (nicely patched up by 3rd party), DCS, but you should get a joystick to be competive in them. Is the joystick such a barrier? No judgement meant, just curious.

I came for the tanks (in fact 18 months before the tanks) and for the "mmo world".

Historical accuracy is not found on ANY mainstream games. EVER.

How many play HistWar ? Scourge of War ? Command Ops ? War in the Pacific ? All these are high water marks in historical accuracy at all levels.

There is a reason for it. They are very demanding on their learning curve. Therefore the population is low.

Historical accuracy and historical credibility are not the same thing.

Naval Action is highly credible, not highly accurate.

Histwar is an amazing project, but the dev team so tiny and the lack of advertisement did not help.

When I was talking about historical accuracy, I was mainly talking about stats of ships, and so on

For example, I hope the gun stats will not be arbitrary, but taken from historical sources, penetration tables, etc...

[SchurkjeBoefje]

Sailing itself should be a big part of the game. Even today ships have tough time at some seas/weather. I don't want to sail through Drake passage like it's no big deal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't even mind to be pulled out of 'fast travel' and forced to handle a storm manually! Not to mention rounding the Horn....the Accursed One! 

 

 

 

(Agreed with everything OP said btw)

[SchurkjeBoefje]

We are not planning to dumb down the game. We don't have plans to cater to millions. We need to sell 100,000 copies and have 10000 live players to be happy, providing good income for dev team. We know that niche products can make good money (Porsche). 

 

There will be no +1 +2 flying numbers on the screen. But we are sure some modders will implement them. 

There will be no sword fighting - we don't have people who can do it well. 

 

But upgrades and better officers will be in game. You will be able to capture or craft ships from better wood, or forge better cannons from better iron. 

On the pirates in first rates we cannot guarantee it - we have provided the calculation in this topic http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/537-the-economy-and-1st-rates/?p=22625 

 

in 1800 Prices

Cost of HMS Victory (and it was kind of low on decor) was 64,000 pounds. Before Nelson got it it was refurbished and repaired for another 73000 pounds. 

 

approximate numbers

• Average pay for a ship of the line captain was 35 pounds per month.
• Average prize money for a non private ship was 275 pounds (sometimes more, more often less)
• Cost of salaries for a 1st rate were more than 2000 pounds per month

So using realistic 1800 prices you need to capture 236 average ships for the admiralty (cos they keep the ship) to support the cost of the 1st rate. + You need around 2000-3000 pounds per month to maintain the ship

 

If you are capturing for yourself (pirating)- and selling ships you will need less than 236 ships (eg you caught a trader with diamonds). One of the testers McDoran - has like 700 battles already. Probably he will be a solo pirate in game. He won 50% of them - meaning he captured 350 ships.

 

Thus - pirates sailing first rates is possible in the game environment. 3 months of daily gameplay and very active players can have a first rate cost equivalent in their pocket. Unless we adjust the pricing of first rates to make them possible only as National projects (a-la wonders in Civilization games)

 

Most of you have already seen more battles than an average captain of that time. Many of you want to have a first rate in the dock.. 

 

 

Have you guys thought about crew morale systems for pirate captains? There's some interesting stuff to explore.

[max_86]

On the pirates in first rates we cannot guarantee it - we have provided the calculation in this topic http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/537-the-economy-and-1st-rates/?p=22625

in 1800 Prices

Cost of HMS Victory (and it was kind of low on decor) was 64,000 pounds. Before Nelson got it it was refurbished and repaired for another 73000 pounds.

approximate numbers

• Average pay for a ship of the line captain was 35 pounds per month.
• Average prize money for a non private ship was 275 pounds (sometimes more, more often less)
• Cost of salaries for a 1st rate were more than 2000 pounds per month

So using realistic 1800 prices you need to capture 236 average ships for the admiralty (cos they keep the ship) to support the cost of the 1st rate. + You need around 2000-3000 pounds per month to maintain the ship

If you are capturing for yourself (pirating)- and selling ships you will need less than 236 ships (eg you caught a trader with diamonds). One of the testers McDoran - has like 700 battles already. Probably he will be a solo pirate in game. He won 50% of them - meaning he captured 350 ships.

Thus - pirates sailing first rates is possible in the game environment. 3 months of daily gameplay and very active players can have a first rate cost equivalent in their pocket. Unless we adjust the pricing of first rates to make them possible only as National projects (a-la wonders in Civilization games)

Most of you have already seen more battles than an average captain of that time. Many of you want to have a first rate in the dock..

But you could deny to pirate (or "outlaw") players the possibility of building new ships, if they don't own their personal shipyard of course

[Edward Vernon]

Well it has to be said, I have not agreed with much the OP has posted on these forums, but the sense of his OP here is spot on. I am also VERY impressed with what the devs have done to date and the responses we get from them. I have great confidence in their ability to stick to the plan and deliver the game we all hope it will be. Please do not forget that we in the community have a role to lay here by testing, bug finding and making reasonable suggestions to imrpove the game. I doubt that any suggestion not fitting in with the general direction and style of the game will be implemented, no matter how many arcade voices are raised.

 

Keep on the Straight and Narrow path...

[StaleMemes]

Cater to the few, not the many. Because the many will move on in a month, but the few will stay for years.

[Robert Danforth]

Historical accuracy is not found on ANY mainstream games. EVER.

 

How many play HistWar ? Scourge of War ? Command Ops ? War in the Pacific ? All these are high water marks in historical accuracy at all levels.

 

There is a reason for it. They are very demanding on their learning curve. Therefore the population is low.

 

Historical accuracy and historical credibility are not the same thing.

 

Naval Action is highly credible, not highly accurate.

 

Well, I dunno, Ultimate General is pretty accurate. Of course it's much smaller in scope, too.

[Guest raat]

and it needs to be, if it want's to live as long as EvE

 

I sincerely hope this game is nothing like EvE...

[Sophist]

If the designers intend to build a realistic, persistent, game world that focuses on the simulation effects, the community will likely be quite small and the gross revenues will match. Note I'm not talking an EVE type environment here, that is not a sim in any way, nor does it or any games like it really have a fit in this discussion). Realisitc combat sims such as Aces High are still around and have been so for many years. It IS a valid business model and there is nothing wrong with this approach if the commitment is to realism.

 

If the designers want to appeal to a larger audience, and a larger gross revenue model, then the game has to incorporate increasing degrees of arcade like qualities and likely stick with only the sandbox type instanced game play we are testing with currently. This is obviously the most popular approach for game designers of late...see War Thunder or World of Tanks as good examples of the effects of arcade-focused sims. And these games can bring in massive revenues, so it is obviously a pretty appealing business model.

 

From what I have read I cannot get a clear sense of what the planned direction is from the designers. Or rather, that there is a final decision on this. If I was going to lay odds though, they would be with the latter model, not the prior, simply because the design path is very easy, and the successful business  model is already laid out for you (follow WT or WoT).

 

Now that's not saying it is what I would like to see (I'd much prefer the realistic approach).

[Guest raat]

If the designers intend to build a realistic, persistent, game world that focuses on the simulation effects, the community will likely be quite small and the gross revenues will match. Note I'm not talking an EVE type environment here, that is not a sim in any way, nor does it or any games like it really have a fit in this discussion). Realisitc combat sims such as Aces High are still around and have been so for many years. It IS a valid business model and there is nothing wrong with this approach if the commitment is to realism.

 

If the designers want to appeal to a larger audience, and a larger gross revenue model, then the game has to incorporate increasing degrees of arcade like qualities and likely stick with only the sandbox type instanced game play we are testing with currently. This is obviously the most popular approach for game designers of late...see War Thunder or World of Tanks as good examples of the effects of arcade-focused sims. And these games can bring in massive revenues, so it is obviously a pretty appealing business model.

 

From what I have read I cannot get a clear sense of what the planned direction is from the designers. Or rather, that there is a final decision on this. If I was going to lay odds though, they would be with the latter model, not the prior, simply because the design path is very easy, and the successful business  model is already laid out for you (follow WT or WoT).

 

Now that's not saying it is what I would like to see (I'd much prefer the realistic approach).

 

The WT/WoT model is EXACTLY what most of us in this community (at least myself for sure) are running from.  I would dump this game in a heartbeat if it goes that way.  It would be no hard feelings to GL, I just can't support that trend in gaming.

[Crossfader]

The WT/WoT model is EXACTLY what most of us in this community (at least myself for sure) are running from.  I would dump this game in a heartbeat if it goes that way.  It would be no hard feelings to GL, I just can't support that trend in gaming.

Im here from WoT, not because its a bad game, its actually very good, and fun (got 10k battles in it, im blue for those that know wn8). The thing that is driving me away from WoT is the fact that the devs REFUSE to fix broken mechanics (arty) and many other thing, are adding more RNG into the game (accuracy nerf 9.6), and there last "big thing", the Individual Missions are complete shit.

 

I stopped playing WT/GF because realistic/sim battle are way too arcady. Realistic is just arcade light and Sim should be renamed to "WT/GF Minimap: the adventure"

[Kpt Beowulf aka Kpt Ahab]

Off topic, but I don't understand why all the talk of 'War Thunder' as some mecca of historical accuracy, now fallen.  There are some really fine combat flight sims out there, Rise of Flight (since 2009), Battle of Stalingrad now, Cliffs of Dover (nicely patched up by 3rd party), DCS,  but you should get a joystick to be competive in them.  Is the joystick such a barrier?  No judgement meant, just curious.

The reason why i mentioned WT is not because I want a pure simulation game but the fact that it started off as a good compromise between playability and historical accuracy both in matchmaking and flight models. And the superbe graphics engine made of course one big slice of the pie.

 

At one point WT gave up their concept of "Historic Mode" "Simulator Mode" and a very good tier system  and looked for a "balance system" which causes massive problems because the weakest players can rate a very good plane down to a state where let´s say an american Thunderbolt from 1943 fights a german Messerschmidt E-3 from 1940 just because the pilot of the far weaker plane flies his plane very good and the pilot of the far better has no clue about the strength/weaknesses of his plane. These are concessions made to a community of arcade headed players that don´t care about the theme of a game but only to level fast and easy. WT Dvs decided to cater this player base and did that not only in the Arcade section but also in their "realistic" and "simulation" mode. These modes are now an extension of the Arcade mode and the whole game has no direction or frame any more.

 

If a Dev Team decides to follow the part of players that cry for ships that respawn after being lost for poor decisions and skills or micro transactions for stat purposes the game will point in the pay to win direction.

 

If a game wants to go for a good game world and "story/history based" direction, the focus has to cater more the role-play aspect i would say. This would be my preference too and I don´t strive for the biggest gunship to dominate everything as my ego doesn´t need that. And i personally don´t want just another shooter as it gets boring to have the same concept in another environment.