Hethwill Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Regarding a ship organization, granted there is a similar structure but remember that a war commissioned vessel has more officers and more specialized artisans, carpenters for example. So wages and prize cash is higher. Another big difference is the maintenance and outfit of a trader or a war ship. One will minimise costs, the other will minimise chances of losing a battle. A trader ship exists to make profit. A warship exists to destroy the enemy ships. A privateer exists to disrupts enemy trade ( doing profit from looted cargo ) and also to destroy any enemy ships feasible. A pirate ship is like a privateer except everyone is a enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 the captain need to be sure what were is going ( i presume you understand why ) everything need to pass trough the eyes and the hands of the captain ( in our modern times there is daily , weekly and monthly information notes needed to be signed by the captain to be sure that he read them and know what is going on - even the menu for the cook , similar forms was used by the navy and the merchant ships at XVIII and XIX centuries ) , when you backer ask - were are the money for the 6 month voyage you need to show him how is spent . There is so many things are missed and give completely wrong picture , but on ship no matter what you can not have debates other way everything become ( how to express my self better ) disarray . But this is what I'm telling you. Caribbean pirates did vote on the destination of the vessel and did have debates on aspects of shipboard life/organization. And this was possible precisely because pirates did not have backers to answer to. Neither did they 'voyage' in the usual sense. They had no destination except prize money, and any area of the ocean with prey was destination enough. They could also steal new sails and entire ships at any time, so no real need to keep up the current vessel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigand Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I don't think 'democracy' is the correct term, because it (nowadays) holds certain presumptions about equal vote weight, not being allowed to intimidate other voters, etc. etc. Yet, there is more than enough evidence that pirate ships where a far from the autocracy found aboard non-pirate ships. Each pirate had a say in things and if the majority of a pirate crew thought the captain to be a coward, it was their 'right' to relieve him from command (methods varied). I'm a bit sceptical about how a bunch of half drunk (there is more than enough evidence on the rum-drinking part) criminals would allow for dissenting opinions on such matters, but that does not take away the fact that the 'pirate society' aboard a ship was a lot more egalitarian than any other society in 'the civilised world'. So a pirate crew, as mentioned by @maturin, had a say in just about anything, from where they would be cruising to when they would next sail into a harbour. (Between 1650 and 1680 Tortuga for example did become a free-haven for buccaneers, which was not in a small part because of the English governors of Jamaica the time). There 'rights' where not uncommonly written down (although one has to keep in mind that almost none of the common sailors could read or write) in a code of conduct, now known as the 'pirate code', some have even survived to this day and are now in museum. ~Brigand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William the Drake Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Each pirate had a say in things and if the majority of a pirate crew thought the captain to be a coward, it was their 'right' to relieve him from command (methods varied). I'm a bit sceptical about how a bunch of half drunk (there is more than enough evidence on the rum-drinking part) criminals would allow for dissenting opinions on such matters, but that does not take away the fact that the 'pirate society' aboard a ship was a lot more egalitarian than any other society in 'the civilised world'. One of the pirate codes of Bartholomew Roberts was that his crew was not to be found drunk (on duty). Although not incredibly liked by the crew, if they agreed to it, they (tried) to follow it. Anyway, while, yes, should you compare pirate ships to modern day connotations of democracy, you will find little to be comparable. However, for a time and world ruled by absolute monarchies, the emergence of even pseudo-democracies was something to be considered. Places where sailors otherwise considered slaves were allowed to sail equally (again, not completely equal, but enough to be considerable for the time). And even compare this to the predecessors of Athens, where only the Land owning Male Athenian who could prove his citizenship AND his parents citizenship (and their parents citizenship, and so on) could vote, and then the Roman iteration which was slightly more lenient (differing levels of voting power and citizenship), take all that into consideration, and you have a type of democracy that is quite unique to the western world. The same goes when comparing Golden Age and Later Pirates to Modern day pirates; the mentality and stigma attached to each is both very similar in some ways and very different in others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWili Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I don't think 'democracy' is the correct term, because it (nowadays) holds certain presumptions about equal vote weight, not being allowed to intimidate other voters, etc. etc... ...There 'rights' where no uncommonly written down (although one has to keep in mind that almost none of the common sailors could read or write) in a code of conduct, now known as the 'pirate code', some have even survived to this day and are now in museum. ~Brigand ...Anyway, while, yes, should you compare pirate ships to modern day connotations of democracy, you will find little to be comparable... ...The same goes when comparing Golden Age and Later Pirates to Modern day pirates; the mentality and stigma attached to each is both very similar in some ways and very different in others... I'm very puzzled, at first theres posts about pirate code to be compared to constitution, then a law, now it seems that this code didnt even exist as a common set of rules, it was just a random agreement between captain and sailor. And it was the captain who build the rules (some might be negotiated, but I haven't seen any documents about things being so, so I assume it was captain who build the code), which crewmembers had to accept when joining? Or did I miss a point somewhere? Sorry for quoting myself, but somehow I let myself think, that some players on this thread were hinting that this pirate code and democratic agreement meant that pirates could build/buy/steal big fleets with some/many 1st rates and stuff which normally could be considered as "strong nations" only. "Atleast in those silly hollywood movies pirates are portrayed as lonely rangers, wild dogs or boars at best. Like a pack of hounds, running together, but biting each other if they saw an opportunity. I'm puzzled about these posts, which seem to portray pirates as a community builders with common rules and values trying to build a society which might have formed later to a nation with great fleets and democratic values? It's pretty much against everything I thought pirates were about. I would love to get information about plans, how pirate captains cooperated or how the societys of pirates worked? How they act as a fleet, build ports, hospitals for wounded pirates, who could use their compensation to medicate themselves, banks and shipyards etc. It sounds really interesting." I really would like to play as a pirate, if that kind of social/communal support was really available for them at some points. If they were lonely hunters who couldnt cooperate and build the needed infrastructure, then I'm not interested in life of piracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Loe Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Here is a book with all the info about pirate ships: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wuco7cnjzi7jo06/AAACXC1z5osb2xqcmwZMGZABa?dl=0 Enjoy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Loe Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 List of all historic pirate ships and captains. SHIP NAME SHIP TYPE GUNS & CREW DATELINE SHIP CAPTAIN Adventure Sloop 10 cannon 1718 Edward Teach (Blackbeard) Adventure Galley Merchant 34 cannon /150 men 1697 William Kidd Adventure Prize Merchant unknown 1698 William Kidd Bachelor's Delight unknown 40 cannon 1684 John Cook & Edward Davis Black Joke unknown unknown 1827 Benito de Soto Blanco unknown 6 cannon /80 men 1718 LeBour Bravo Guineaman unknown 1760s John Power Cassandra East Indiaman unknown 1719 John Taylor Charles unknown 10 cannon 1705 John Halsey Charles Brigantine unknown 1703 John Quelch Cinque Ports Galley 16 cannon /63 men 1703 Charles Pickering Cour Valant unknown unknown 1668 La Vivion Delight Sloop 12 cannon 1720s Francis Spriggs Delivery unknown 16 cannon /50 men 1721 George Lowther Desire unknown unknown 1586 Thomas Cavendish Duke unknown unknown 1708 Woodes Rogers Fame unknown unknown 1703 John Pulling Fame's Revenge Guineaman unknown 1726 William Fly Fancy Man of War 46 cannon /150 men 1694 Henry Avery Fancy unknown 34 cannon /180 men 1720 Edward England Flying Dragon unknown unknown 1719 Christopher Condent Flying Horse unknown unknown 1719 Robert Sample Flying King unknown unknown 1674 John Rhoade Fortune Sloop 10 cannon 1720s Edward Low Fortune unknown 26 cannon 1720 Bartholomew Roberts Fortune Slave Ship 40 cannon 1683 Laurens de Graff Gift unknown unknown 1602 John Ward Golden Hind Galleon unknown 1578 Sir Francis Drake Good Fortune Brigantine 18 cannon 1721 Bartholomew Roberts & Thomas Anstis Great Ranger Warship 32 cannon 1722 Bartholomew Roberts Happy Delivery Merchant 16 cannon /50 men 1721 George Lowther Indian Queen unknown 28 cannon /90 men 1720 Oliver LaBouche Jacob unknown unknown 1690s William May La Fortune Unknown 14 cannon /100 men 1684 Michel Landresson (Breha) Le Hardy Unknown 50 cannon /300men 1685 Sieur de Grammont Le Neptune Unknown 54 cannon /210men 1600s Laurens de Graff Liberty Unknown unknown 1690s Thomas Tew Little Ranger unknown 10 cannon 1722 Bartholomew Roberts Margaret unknown unknown 1699 Samuel Burgess Mary unknown unknown 1721 Philip Roche Mary Anne Sloop 8 cannon 1716 Samuel Bellamy Mocha Frigate unknown unknown 1697 Ralph Stout & Robert Culliford Morning Star unknown 32 cannon/100 men 1721 Thomas Anstis & John Fenn Most Holy Trinity unknown unknown 1681 Bartholomew Sharp & John Watlins Night Rambler Sloop unknown 1725 Cooper Oxford unknown 34 cannon 1668 Edward Collier Pearl unknown 16 cannon 1693 William May Prosperous unknown 36 cannon 1702 Thomas Howard Queen Anne's Revenge Guineaman 40 cannon /200 men 1718 Edward Teach (Blackbeard) Ranger Sloop 10 cannon /60 men 1720s Charles Vane & George Lowther Revenge Sloop 10 cannon /70 men 1717 Stede Bonnet Revenge Merchant 20 cannon 1724 John Gow Rising Sun unknown 35 cannon /135 men 1717 Christopher Moody Rover Sloop of War 32 cannon 1720 Howell Davis & Bartholomew Roberts Royal Fortune Frigate 42 cannon 1720 Bartholomew Roberts Royal James Sloop unknown 1719 Edward England Saint James Unknown 26 cannon 1718 Howell Davis San Pedro unknown unknown 1670 Manuel Rivero Pardal Scowerer Sloop unknown 1722 John Evans Sea King Brigantine 30 cannon 1721 Bartholomew Roberts Sea Nymph Sloop unknown 1725 Philip Lyne Snap Dragon unknown unknown 1710 Thomas Goldsmith Soldado unknown 28 cannon 1696 Dirk Chivers Speaker Guineaman 50 cannon /200 men 1700 George Booth & John Bowen Speedy Return unknown unknown 1702 John Bowen Sudden Death Man of War 70 men 1700s John Derdrake Sultana unknown unknown unknown 1717 Sam Bellamy Tigre Frigate 26 cannon 1679 Laurens de Graff Two Brothers Sloop 18 cannon /90 men 1730 Henry Johnson & Pedro Poleas Victory Galley unknown unknown 1719 Edward England Victory Sloop unknown 30 cannon 1721 Oliver LaBouche & John Taylor William Sloop unknown 6 cannon 1720 Calico Jack Rackham Whydah Guineaman 28 cannon 1717 Samuel Bellamy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Loe Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Just got this kit today from my friend. True pirate ship. Jolly Roger http://www.internetmodeler.com/scalemodels/flships/Lingberg-s-Jolly-Roger-Pirate-Ship.php 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonar Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Will we see Letters of marque ingame? Could be the best way to play as "pirate"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Will we see Letters of marque ingame? Could be the best way to play as "pirate"... Yes, Privateers have been said to be in the plans for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakota Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Complete list of all historic pirate ships and captains. SHIP NAME SHIP TYPE GUNS & CREW DATELINE SHIP CAPTAIN Adventure Sloop 10 cannon 1718 Edward Teach (Blackbeard) ….. I wouldn't quite say it's a complete list, for example its grossly missing pirates from the pre-Spanish Succession-Peace of Ryswick interim, i.e. Van Hoven, Kelly, and Elding, Lambert, Kercue, Samson to name a few. Rather, it could be said this ais a completel list of pirate ships and captains featured in Johnson's General History of the Pirates. Overall tho, a very good list that gives a comprehensive idea of what they sailed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5KnuckleChuckle Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Hey William, to get back to your original post, I would think there are going to be modifications available to anyone in the game. As someone else said, I don't think any of these would be pirate specific per say though it would be interesting to know what modifications there were in comparison to say which ones merchants would actually dole out the cash for. Please tolerate my lack of knowledge but I'm not sure how much military captains modified their ships or even if they were permitted to do so. I guess what I'm saying without actually knowing, I wonder how many modifications were made by pirates just because it made more sense for them to do so because of reason A or B etc. What I do know from a fair bit of pirate research over the years is that many, if not most, ships taken and kept by pirates were retrofitted. At the very least every cannon that could be added were added. Someone mentioned pirates wouldn't want to damage ships thus they never needed lots of cannons. Pirates are like criminals today, the more firepower the better whether you need it or not. It seems they wanted as much as they could get just in case they needed them, probably for defense or to bring a defiant merchant to heel etc. Someone also seemed to dress pirates up as more gentlemanly than they were. Just from the "rock star" pirates which are written about most often, many have documented cases of cruelty to captives, killing captives, killing whole crews, stealing ships and burning ships after they had been looted. I believe that in the early days of Caribbean pirating it may have been a rule for some pirates to treat captives fairly so their reputation spread as a decent pirate thus prizes in the future may give up more easily but when the times changed to pirates being hunted by privateers, many of which were ex-pirates, and navies they would kill crews and burn vessels so as to not leave behind evidence of the crime and evidence of their whereabouts. Edited March 11, 2015 by 5KnuckleChuckle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPyrate Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 For a lot of good information on piracy, including great discussions with actual experts (not just internet "experts"), I'd recommend people check out http://pyracy.com/. There you'll find years worth of discussions, so we don't have to do all of it here. There are probably more myths pervading about piracy than actual known facts. Thanks to literature and hollywood glamorizing pirates, there has been a move to find anything that might be good about them and inflate it. For example, few pirate vessels actually practiced any sort of democracy on board. They did not treat everyone, regardless of race, equally. There were very few female pirates (which is why the few that there were are so popular), and often they were expressly forbidden on ships. There was no 'pirate code'. In general, each pirate ship was run differently, so it's impossible in most cases to say "pirates did/did not do _____." Many pirates were hanged, many were pardoned, many died of disease, some were very religious, some were not religious, some had political connections, some had political leanings that affected their actions, some ended up being knighted and governing their own islands. Heck, John Paul Jones was called a pirate by the British, who didn't acknowledge their colonies' ability to appoint him as an officer, but he's now considered the United States' first Naval officer. Both sides were technically correct. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agin Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I can't seem to find an internet version of my preferred source, which was the History Channel's Modern Marvels: Pirate Tech. http://www.stopmove.com/video/viewvideo/636/pirate-tech.html?template=orient__screen_blue you are welcome:) enjoy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas aagaard Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 List of all historic pirate ships and captains. That is a bit of a statement... All? with no limitations on time period, geographical area? In that case I do think you list is missing some somali pirates... Generally this topic have a near total lack of sources. What to make statements about history? back it up with proper sources. Like books that itself use sources that can be looked up and verified... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William the Drake Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) There are probably more myths pervading about piracy than actual known facts. Thanks to literature and hollywood glamorizing pirates, there has been a move to find anything that might be good about them and inflate it. It's true that the information that we do have about piracy is very subject, and that Hollywood no doubt does "romanticize" and distort the images of pirates (as it does with pretty much anything it portrays), however there is also the fact that often times there is some truth to myth. Many things deemed "Hollywood-esque", such as eye patches, peg legs, and the rum swilling pirate, all have basis in historical prevalence. The second issue is to understand that most primary sources from the era are most often times biased against pirates and piracy, and with good reason! These accounts were usually written by the powers that were actively hunting pirates down, so they would most likely not want to paint pirates any any type of redeeming light. (We know that Herodotus most likely embellished his account of the Battle of Thermopylae in order to have the Spartans successful against greater odds initially, in what is today considered one of the earliest instances of fudging facts for propaganda-ish effects) With any historical study, it is key to understand that a text is not always 100%, and that by using multiple sources and accounts, we find the things most common are usually the closets to the truth. Archaeological evidence used in tandem with literary ones can paint a completely different picture than the literary supplies alone. There was no 'pirate code'. In general, each pirate ship was run differently, so it's impossible in most cases to say "pirates did/did not do _____. As discussed earlier, while there was no single, universal pirate code, each ship and captain had their own code, and often these had similar elements as others. Again, a romanticized idea that has historical roots. Many pirates were hanged, many were pardoned, many died of disease, some were very religious, some were not religious, some had political connections, some had political leanings that affected their actions, some ended up being knighted and governing their own islands. Heck, John Paul Jones was called a pirate by the British, who didn't acknowledge their colonies' ability to appoint him as an officer, but he's now considered the United States' first Naval officer. Both sides were technically correct. I agree with this whole-heartedly. It is my general observation that we are often presented with two images of pirates: the Hollywood Pirate and the Heartless Cutthroat Pirate, and are told that we can only agree that one or the other is the truth, with no in-between. This, in my opinion, is a fallacy, and that in truth, the majority of the average pirate did in fact populate the middle ground between these two images (although most probably leaning heavily in the cutthroat direction). The blurry line between pirate and privateer also did not help this concept. http://www.stopmove.com/video/viewvideo/636/pirate-tech.html?template=orient__screen_blue you are welcome:) enjoy Ah bless you my lad! I been searching high and low for this! Generally this topic have a near total lack of sources. What to make statements about history? back it up with proper sources. Like books that itself use sources that can be looked up and verified... The above was the main source that I used for this piece, however I used some others in its place (again, avoiding wikipedia at all costs). I also point to the common themes throughout the sources as the biggest factor. While I do not have the written books to back it up (I'm in the process of reading a few primary sources now, however, as a university student, my free time is limited and heavily strained), I believed the testimony by professors in the videos would approach a descent substitute. Edited March 12, 2015 by William the Drake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPyrate Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) For written sources, I would recommend the following as good places to start. I've added the amazon links just because it's easier than doing a full bibliography. The three sources I've chosen are good examples of the three ways we know about pirates: primary sources, secondary sources, and archeology. Sure, some stereotypes are accurate about pirates: many did suffer from venereal disease for example, but without some evidence to back up the claim, it's completely unverifiable and likely blown out of proportions myth. Of course, for my example, there are plenty of contemporary accounts of ports frequented by pirates having plenty of less-than-virtuous ladies, and we know that Blackbeard once blockaded Charleston, SC and demanded medicine as ransom, and we know that urethral syringes were found at the Queen Anne's Revenge's wreck site. Put that all together, and we can say with confidence that many pirates likely suffered from venereal disease, and possibly even Edward Teach himself. However, the other side of the coin that needs to be watched for is looking for evidence that backs up a myth. For example, saying that pirates were in favor of equality for all is completely false. For example, some people claim that Blackbeard left Topsail inlet in Revenge with a 'crew' of 40 white men and 60 black men. However, many sources make it clear that the black men were slaves, not crew. Additionally, just because something may have happened once or twice does not make it 'normal among pirates'. General History...Notorious Pirates, by Capt. Charles Johnson (primary source, though with its inaccuracies as well. Often considered a good first place to look). Sometimes attributed to Daniel Defoe http://www.amazon.com/General-History-Robberies-Murders-Notorious/dp/1599219050/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426135381&sr=1-1&keywords=general+history+of+the+robberies+%26+murders+of+the+most+notorious+pirates Pirates of the West Country, by Ed Fox. http://www.amazon.com/Pirates-West-Country-Ed-Fox/dp/0752443771/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426135243&sr=8-1&keywords=ed+fox+pirate X Marks the Spot, ed. by Prof. Russel Skowronek and Charles Ewen http://www.amazon.com/Marks-Spot-Archaeology-Perspectives-Maritime/dp/081303079X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426135592&sr=8-1&keywords=X+marks+the+spot Lastly, the history channel is not known for it's amazing history these days. Though satire, there is much to this video's claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us52tqtn7TA Although the History Channel does have some very good, well researched documentaries, there are three words that put their credibility on shaky grounds..."Ancient Alien Theorists" Edited March 12, 2015 by AKPyrate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingerad Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I tend to fall into the camp of folks that find pirates to be vastly over-romanticized by modern audiences. Every schoolkid seems to want to be a pirate, because you know "screw authority". In reality we know pirates were not quite exceptional. They were people, just people. Everyone seems to be getting worked up over how awesome pirate democracies were. I'm not. These guys were bands of highwaymen. Do you really think no where in the world some group of bandits didn't get together and talk things over? That suddenly, you put bandits on a ship and they get smacked on the head by a brick that says "LIBERTY" in big bold letters? I suppose, since they were relatively large groups something could be said for holding some vestiges of democracy. But well, better informed minds than I have pointed out that not every pirate ship was great soil for democratic ideals. Again, I think this is a case of pirate inflation. A few pirates were democratic, so suddenly they all are! This is sort of what disgusts me about modern views on pirates. Don't even get me started on the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, I to this day have yet to be able to sit all the way through any of them. For all your references to pirate kitting out of a ship, well, as folks have pointed out, none of it is terribly special. Though often I find some of the goals at odds with each other. For instance, if you add guns, you add weight, and are going to sail slower. Certainly, there was a prime emphasis on speed often, but these ships were customized to the crew/captain's satisfaction with what materials are at hand. Though I do guess that if you are only planning a very short voyage, you don't need quite as many stores as if you were making a longer one with no landfall. So perhaps a tiny bit of speed from this. But I'm not sure it really is trying to increase a ship's cargo hold space as a goal. I would also remind you there is a major drawback to this method. You can't choose always what is at hand. That can mean somewhat a mish-mash of parts. It also means your ship isn't going to get the high class maintenance naval vessels get. All this can lead up to a sub-par sailing vessel. Long story short, pirates were not magic. They were small ships that hid from bigger ships, mostly found in the more remote corners of the world. I also have to question to some degree your assertion that these men would often be fine crews due to them being the now un-employed castoffs from the navies. I have no doubt that many of such men were good seamen, I'm sure they could do all kinds of ship board tasks quite satisfactory. But there are many things that make a smart ship. Part of performing excellently is in fact, proper discipline and drill. Do you really picture pirates doing gun drills to any sort of intensity compared to a proper fighting ship? This goes too for handling, part of sailing smart is good attention to detail and practice. I contend that as fine as these seamen once were, I expect there performance may have actually suffered a bit. And this doesn't include any poor souls that lack much training at all, but find themselves reduced to piracy. As brutal as a navy ship was, what it did do fairly well is work the men into wonderful fighting shape. I'm sure these men were to some degree capable sailors. But to think they were crack teams just seems a bit absurd to me, certainly nothing compared to a real fighting ship, especially one at peace time where the officers could better chose men and were not reliant on the press or jailbirds to man their ships. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas aagaard Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Lastly, the history channel is not known for it's amazing history these days. Though satire, there is much to this video's claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us52tqtn7TA Although the History Channel does have some very good, well researched documentaries, there are three words that put their credibility on shaky grounds..."Ancient Alien Theorists" I actually never seen their shows about Aliens. I do have a show they made about the vikings, and it is so filled with unsupported statements and exaggeration that I have very hard time trusting them, if they say that the earth is not Flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Sure, some stereotypes are accurate about pirates: many did suffer from venereal disease for example, but without some evidence to back up the claim, it's completely unverifiable and likely blown out of proportions myth. 'Myth' is an odd choice of word here, in my opinion. 'Common sense,' might be nearer the mark. Because the prevalence of venereal disease among seamen, including naval seamen who were often confined to the ship for years on end, is very well-documented. The presence of such diseases among pirates scarcely needs verification if you are studying them in the context of the maritime world they lived in. Of course, therein lies the problem. 90% of popular knowledge concerning pirates is fed to people in perfect isolation. The internet is full of pirate experts who couldn't provide you with the barest of facts on the culture and politics of the rest of the world at that time. Read a book from someone like Marcus Redicker, and you will get the proper emphasis on historical context. It can't be stressed enough that an Atlantic pirate is just a disgruntled seaman. Same habits, same worldview, same dialect, and often enough the same dress. Piracy was in many ways a very predictable and reasonable response to the conditions seamen were expected to live in, under invariably predatory authorities. I do agree that the customs of the Caribbean 'Golden Age' pirates (most of whom were all 'related') are too often applied to pirates as a whole. But it's also unfair to minimize the importance of pirate democracy, because in such arrangements they were harkening back to a more egalitarian, collectivist mode of maritime labor relations from the medieval era. They were reclaiming a sort of freedom that had been lost. In the process, they were developing a system that was not to be found anywhere else in the world at the time. Certainly, any band of highwaymen can vote on important decisions. This is not terribly impressive. But it is a different matter when all the finest minds and richest men of the civilized world ignore such ideas, and the highwaymen are ahead of the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axralis Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 And it shows. The History Channel is junk. I know, my best friend's parents made plenty of documentaries for them. There was nothing unique as pirates vessels. As your second sentence immediately demonstrates. They weren't purpose-built, but captured. And neither did you mention any unusual retrofits. Studdingsails were used by naval and merchant vessels routinely. As for increasing firepower and cargo capacity, wouldn't naval and merchant vessels already sail around with maximum firepower and cargo space, respectively? I agree with sir Maturin on this one 100%. I try to find any writen document about pirates building their ships by them selfs any could not find any so as sir Maturin said they where captured ships, or let say bought ships and those ships where standard build ships not some special ships that goes faster,better turning and so on . Some of you here are saying that some pirates ships where faster and better in handling by a little bit and that is also true. But those ships where not some sort of special seacret pirate design they where normal ships like any other . What did they do then to go faster and a little bit better in turning. They razee or retrofit their stolen,captured ships reduced the number of total guns they reduced the poundage of the guns , they throw away all unnecessary heavy things to reduce the total weight of the ships later maybe even add copper platining below waterline so that underwater line was much cleaner from the alges and rest of sea garbage that apply to hull and therefore make the ship slower. Maybe im wrong about this but i really cant find and resource about pirates making their own super fast ship with super tack abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingerad Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I agree with sir Maturin on this one 100%. I try to find any writen document about pirates building their ships by them selfs any could not find any so as sir Maturin said they where captured ships, or let say bought ships and those ships where standard build ships not some special ships that goes faster,better turning and so on . Some of you here are saying that some pirates ships where faster and better in handling by a little bit and that is also true. But those ships where not some sort of special seacret pirate design they where normal ships like any other . What did they do then to go faster and a little bit better in turning. They razee or retrofit their stolen,captured ships reduced the number of total guns they reduced the poundage of the guns , they throw away all unnecessary heavy things to reduce the total weight of the ships later maybe even add copper platining below waterline so that underwater line was much cleaner from the alges and rest of sea garbage that apply to hull and therefore make the ship slower. Maybe im wrong about this but i really cant find and resource about pirates making their own super fast ship with super tack abilities. I was always led to believe this was a relatively expensive process that would require access to specialized materials (rolled copper) of which I'm not sure how available they would be in general let alone to a wanted criminal. It is important to remember that the typical geographic locations that pirates would really thrive in tended to be far from centers of manufacturing. Yes, you can chop down a tree for a mast, but rolling copper and such would take special tools. When the US went to first equip it's first frigates it actually imported the copper from England. Certainly pirates wouldn't need the sheer amount of a frigate, but I have some degree of trouble believing that this would be a common cheap material. I also understand this is a fairly labor intensive process, it probably could be done on a small ship by a band of pirates perhaps, I'm not sure. You certainly would need a good safe anchorage. I don't know if you would need specialized facilities or not. Seems more likely pirates would switch ships around rather than always do this kind of maintenance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I was always led to believe this was a relatively expensive process that would require access to specialized materials (rolled copper) of which I'm not sure how available they would be in general let alone to a wanted criminal. It is important to remember that the typical geographic locations that pirates would really thrive in tended to be far from centers of manufacturing. Yes, you can chop down a tree for a mast, but rolling copper and such would take special tools. When the US went to first equip it's first frigates it actually imported the copper from England. Certainly pirates wouldn't need the sheer amount of a frigate, but I have some degree of trouble believing that this would be a common cheap material. I also understand this is a fairly labor intensive process, it probably could be done on a small ship by a band of pirates perhaps, I'm not sure. You certainly would need a good safe anchorage. I don't know if you would need specialized facilities or not. Seems more likely pirates would switch ships around rather than always do this kind of maintenance. I believe this requires a dry dock and specialized skills and materials that are not readily found floating about the rolling main. Most pirate ships ended up rotten hulks just a few years after their capture if what I've seen is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingerad Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I believe this requires a dry dock and specialized skills and materials that are not readily found floating about the rolling main. Most pirate ships ended up rotten hulks just a few years after their capture if what I've seen is true. That was what I thought was true as well. I didn't want to say it couldn't be done because I wasn't sure how feasible it would be to roll up a side of a small ship and tack on copper sheeting. I know even large ships could be keeled up in semi-makeshift conditions, but I don't know if it would be done well enough for you to re-copper a bottom. I honestly would expect that sheer lack of the copper sheeting would for the most part remove this as an option for the crew of even a very small pirate. Not even mentioning the difficulty of the procedure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPyrate Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 'Myth' is an odd choice of word here, in my opinion. 'Common sense,' might be nearer the mark. Because the prevalence of venereal disease among seamen, including naval seamen who were often confined to the ship for years on end, is very well-documented. The presence of such diseases among pirates scarcely needs verification if you are studying them in the context of the maritime world they lived in. Of course, therein lies the problem. 90% of popular knowledge concerning pirates is fed to people in perfect isolation. The internet is full of pirate experts who couldn't provide you with the barest of facts on the culture and politics of the rest of the world at that time. 'Theory' would have been a better word, admittedly. However, my point was that it could be conceived as a myth until the evidence which I followed up with supported the idea. You brought up other good evidence with regard to the sailors' health in all stations in the maritime world. So, with this evidence at hand, we can confidently conclude that many pirates had VD. However, few said 'Arrrgh!'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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