Game inbalances or cheating?

[Hethwill]

7 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

No one asked Devs for purple or gold quality ships, they decided to add it into the game I am quite sure everyone was happy with blue boats and no RNG crafting.

I am sure I was and I am. From 21 ships, 3 are purple, rest are blue, from 7th to 2nd rates. I am happy. And for me, that's all that matters.

But apparently many issues, like the one presented here, do impact the average gaming.

[Slim McSauce]

4 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

No one asked Devs for purple or gold quality ships, they decided to add it into the game I am quite sure everyone was happy with blue boats and no RNG crafting.

I would be happy if the RNG was the refits such as strong rig and very sturdy. Those are RNG and simulate well the randomness of some ships built of the same plans being better.

RNG for mod slots is where it falls apart, there's nothing random about getting 5 slots to put any combination of mods you want, or stacking more mods. It's outright advantage and there is no downside to it. It's more extreme measures to create mild interest with the cost of balance disruption.

It's very clear the game wasn't balanced around 5/5 ships, rushed decisions to bring back the mod meta, after efforts to reduce it. These devs need to think about these changes before they do them because every single feature they rush comes back to bite.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

Slim, these decisions are made for testing.

We are mere player testers in development cycle of tests.

Please remain calm and keep on testing. Your contribution generates data.

[Farrago]

7 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

I would be happy if the RNG was the refits such as strong rig and very sturdy. Those are RNG and simulate well the randomness of some ships built of the same plans being better.

RNG for mod slots is where it falls apart, there's nothing random about getting 5 slots to put any combination of mods you want, or stacking more mods. It's outright advantage and there is no downside to it. It's more extreme measures to create mild interest with the cost of balance disruption.

It's very clear the game wasn't balanced around 5/5 ships, rushed decisions to bring back the mod meta, after efforts to reduce it. These devs need to think about these changes before they do them because every single feature they rush comes back to bite.

Yes.

An occasion RNG refit to simulate that you sometimes ended up with a special ship but otherwise all ships should be 3/5.

3/5 allows for us to customize to our play style but 5/5 allows us to create almost an entirely different ship than designed. That’s not good. 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Farrago said:

Yes.

An occasion RNG refit to simulate that you sometimes ended up with a special ship but otherwise all ships should be 3/5.

3/5 allows for us to customize to our play style but 5/5 allows us to create almost an entirely different ship than designed. That’s not good. 

5/5 is actually better in my opinion for customization, you can reach many more aspects of your ship but mods aren't balanced around 5/5, as in mod stacking is still a thing and there's some mods that have such a large bonus that having two of them at once completely changes your ship. You're right 5/5 is not good as it currently is.

[Slim McSauce]

On top of that there's so many useless mods, or mods of the same status doing with slightly different bonuses. Muskets are the biggest offender of this. There's 5 or 6 different musket mods, when you only really need 2. Muskets tier 1 and muskets tier 2. Quality>Quanity

Edited January 12, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

Ofc 5/5 it is better in your opinion. Why shouldn't it...

 🙄

The same as the opponents of the OP... they also think it is much better...

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Ofc 5/5 it is batter in your opinion. Why shouldn't it... 🙄

Intrinsically, 5/5 equals a whole which makes more sense to my human brain. 3/5 seems lacking, even though 3 is a balanced number, most games have 3 pillars of design, ships have more and if you want to upgrade your sails, rigging, cannons, crew, and hull you need 5 slots or else you're arbitrarily limited against design.

[Hethwill]

Gameplay before realism when it suits me. Gotcha.

Let's keep on testing.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Gameplay before realism when it suits me. Gotcha.

Let's keep on testing.

Huh? how did you infer that. Realistically, if I was a captain and I had a ship I would upgrade all sections of my ship and not be limited. There's plenty of mods to make 5/5 standard, there's just too many good mods and mod stacking that makes 5/5 OP.

[do not say dlc]

2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Let's keep on testing.

What, exactly are u testing? and what type of feedback is required from you?

 

[MassimoSud]

47 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Okay. 5/5 - those 2 encyclopedias plus 5 modules plus 3 books on top of interesting wood choices.

I wonder the monster i could do with that and i'm average, let alone if i know how to sail a big ship like that.

You did not read my post, when I captured/sunk these "ships" they were all 3/5 teak / white oak and with basic refits.

[do not say dlc]

One has to BF special, to  make this work.

[Licinio Chiavari]

@MassimoSud and I had clashes in the past.

And I got too called cheater for how nicely I handle a Requin. Or how brutal (sometimes) my boardings were.

In a lot of cases is people having (almost) not a clue about what can be done by a ship nicely fitted and well handled.

So I am usually VERY suspicious about players seeing cheaters around. And therefore I am not supporting these statements 'ex ante'; usually the contrary.

STILL.

I am far less raiding and more often engaged in more 'competitive' PvP (with all related higher expenditures) and I (with other FENIX) crossed ships that looked too good. Too high speed, tankiness, reload, repair and turning (and having a musket mod too!).

Nothing strange finding a ship with one, a couple, three of these characteristics. It could happen (just to remember: gear MATTERS; it simply doesnt matter - almost - between a total noob and a veteran, but between two seasoned PvPers matters. A lot).

It was all these together that we felt strange.

Missing any proof I will not make any name nor I will call cheating around. And I am speaking about PvPers vastly superior to me, so I can suppose I was unable to see the skill in place of the gear (still reloading can be influenced not a lot by player, neither repairing).

Still there's something suspicious.

We will see with more proofs, video, practice.

So, in short: I do not say some cheating is around. But on other hand something weird does happen. Too often facing the same captains.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[Licinio Chiavari]

2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I felt a bit funny when Yordi asked me if my Connie that escaped FENIX 1v7 had Elite Pirate Rig Refit, while it didn't have it! On top of that, the ship was teak-teak, making them think it's super tanky and asking if it's LO/WO, Teak-WO with Cartagena, WO-WO etc. (Connies are naturally super-tanks). My ship was not gold quality sadly and its top speed was 13 knots. This shows how often misleading is player perception, players see "barricades" in every boarding they get beaten, they see elite spanish or elite pirate rig refits when they chase ships etc. etc. Even I do that sometimes, I felt on the stream that @OjK Christian had elite spanish refit, running away so fast from my speedy Bellona... After capturing it I realized I was wrong. When I get beaten by a better player, I simply know that I hello kittyed up, never considered that someone is hacking really. 

I wasnt there.

Still I decently know Connie. Yes, she can look very tanky often. Moreover people is not used to fight them often.

But, on gear matters topic, a 13 kts Connie with guns+some repairs means a Connie breaking 13.5 unloaded.

So a Connie with (at least) +15% speed bonus. Less than 4 (3.75) from wood. 3 from AoSH.

Then we have to look for another +8% speed. On 3 (was she 3/5?) available mods. Copper+NHR and we are still 2.5% short (v.fast trim?).

Gear matters. A lot.

Because we are speaking about a Connie running as fast as a nice Endymion (not superior one). And we all know what happens to an Endy ending side to side vs. a Constitution.

[Licinio Chiavari]

12 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

She was purple and had fast "trim". Her 13 knots was pretty average, I've seen Connies pulling about 14 knots and faster. She was built for speed and brawling. Makes it look super fast, super tanky, great DPS monster, perfect ship all around. Sadly I didn't have boarding hack when Yordi pulled me for boarding.

Connie indeed (IMHO), as Wappen, is a ship usually (and weirdly) subpar ingame that, granted high end quality (4/5+) and mods starts becoming a true powerhouse monster in right hands.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[Celtiberofrog]

I guess perks & mods are simulating ship equipment and crew/captain quality grades

Battles in a historical game such as NA should be fought by/with vessels with only light difference effects of their respective equipment and crew quality.

2 Surprise in 1v1 for example.

The lighter these simulated bonus/penalties the funnier will be the fight where players skill will shine over.

Existing perks & mods are fine but their effects should be reduced to improve game balance.

Surprisingly Dev's developped this large vareity of mods requiring more & more player expertize, while quest for cosmetics would have also attracted most players with no impact on gameplay balance.  

[Licinio Chiavari]

23 minutes ago, Celtiberofrog said:

Surprisingly Dev's developped this large vareity of mods requiring more & more player expertize, while quest for cosmetics would have also attracted most players with no impact on gameplay balance.  

Very very wise words here.

[Licinio Chiavari]

23 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

It still is handicapped by a terrible turn rate. Base speed of it sucks big time too, so you need quite a lot of speed mods to make it "work". Vanilla Connie is just very weak as it is about same speed as light Bucentaures or Bellonas and get obliterated by them.

It has been often pointed out (also by me) that Constitution is a subpar ship having a speed 0.1 kts inferior to Agamennon and a turnrate sitting at 2.8 (so inferior to Bellona one - 2.9).

As I said, she could be great (as IMO Wappen) only with high slot count and good trims, being able so to compensate her weaknesses (speed and turning) with bulkload of mods upkeeping her strong ones (sturdiness first and foremost).

More balanced solution would be keeping her pretty low on turning - like now, but making her base speed around 11.8-12.0, so still inferior to all 5th rates (Indef is sitting at 12.1) and still inferior (2.8 I'd repeat) turning wise to any 5th rate (Endymion sitting at 3.1 - and Indef at 3.2).
So able, as realistically, to smash a similar geared 5th IF she gets side to side, with a weakspot in slight inferior speed and inferior turning rate. BUT making her to, usually, outrun bigger ships (SoLs first and foremost - that she can now outrun only close hauling - may be).

[William Death]

Connie balance, in particular is tricky. Make her too fast and other 5th rates become obsolete. Too high a turn rate compounds this. Too slow (as she is now), and she's not viable to sail when you could just take a SOL thats the same speed but more firepower).

She should be fast in a straight line, with a sturdy hull and good firepower, but low turn rate, as @Licinio Chiavari suggests.

Much like @Banished Privateer, the only way I've found to make Connie viable for solo PvP in our current version of NA that contains Bellonas and Bucentaures that can go as fast as her, is to make her fir/fir or use one with 4+ slots and/or "very fast" trim. And fir/fir, while flimsy, is still tough enough to fight most average captains (who don't understand why they shot me and did no damage  [hint: angling hull; you {average captain} may think you understand it but I don't think you do])....

.....or ya know...I can just enable my pirate hacks and you can blame those 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Banished Privateer said:

I've done videos and and streamed on NPC crew space ships and even using mediums + basic mods, killing best Teak-WO with longs and meta-mods ships. For fun I made a Caguarian-Sabicu Pavel (from the Pavel Note, so I could choose best possible woods) and I put basic mods on it and mediums everywhere. So far I killed 3-4 players using it and it was never close to dying. 

If you can't PvP without best mods, than you have no skill.

who says the best players without good mods can't pvp with basic ships?
You still have 5 crafted book slots, and mediums are the best dps.
Also it's a pavel, it's bigger than 85% of ships in the game and can survive full broadsides from a 1st rate without taking damage to strucuture.
I would be surprised if you were close to dying in it unless you got ganked.

[Slim McSauce]

15 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I have just 2 slots on Pavel and started with 0 of course, never used it for PvE. Some players believe that it is not possible to PvP without best mods, which is bs statement. Same players think that it's not possible to PvP without 5 slots unlocked on the ship.

But you can't do the same on a frigate, you'll just get ganked. Plus that doesn't say anything about what you could have if you were using mods so it's kind of a moot point.anyway

Edited January 13, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Banished Privateer said:

Mods help and everyone knows that. But ships with best mods sink every day. All I'm saying is that statements as "you can't PvP without books, mods blah blah" are all simply bs. I've used NPC 5th rates, 6th rates, 7th rates too. Don't twist topics, Saucy.

No one said that, it's you who's twisting. It's not MODS, it's woods, mods, and books as well as purple and gold ships that create this imbalance that no one denies unless they're foolish.
What is being said is that there is less skill than there ever was in NA. You rely on all these stats boosts to create imbalance, and ganking is used to knock that imbalance out. It's the developers losing their minds adding more and more mods and repeating gold marine days, when ship imbalance is what set them to take those actions in the first place.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Banished Privateer said:

I do not support all the meta-OP ships/mods NA state, neither do I support ganking, nor fake statements that players can't PvP without those golden ships and master mods. 

Ok, I'll add you to the list of people who want mods and books to be less effective, and making ship and wood choice the most important factors in a ship.

We should probably do it quick, seeing the rapid growth of the playerbase. It's time to put the pedal down.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[greybuscat]

On 1/11/2019 at 7:42 PM, Lars Kjaer said:

Welcome to the game that is anything but skill based, but decided by mods and gold ships. 

See, to me what makes the game frustrating is that it is very skill based, but certain mods and skill books severely widen the skill gap. A bad player with good "gear" won't know how to make use of them, and a really good player won't need them to beat bad players. To me, the problem is biggest when average, competent players (know how to manual sail, tack, at least grasp the concept of angling, etc) come up against very good players with very good ships, mods, and books. They often get absolutely destroyed, or at the very least disengage feeling embarrassed and frustrated for having wasted an hour chasing a repair-fit ship, even when numbers are overwhelmingly on their side. Some may argue that good players will always come out on top, regardless of numbers (I've seen plenty of Patrol Zone screenshots [where hardly anybody risks good "gear"] that imply otherwise), but that still raises the question of why a top-tier player needed more advantages if they are already a dominant force.

In other words, the only people who have access to the best stuff don't need it, except to beat other top-tier players with the best stuff, whom they will rarely actually fight. The vast majority of the time, they turn what could be interesting, or even disadvantageous battles into exercises in seal-clubbing.