Wapen von Hamburg III buff to make it slightly more viable in OW

[Njord]

I found an interesting piece of information regarding the Wapen on this wikipedia article about the ship that is sadly only available in german:

"Das Schiff wurde nach dem Verkauf zum bewaffneten Handelsschiff umgebaut und war in dieser Funktion nachweislich noch bis 1757 tätig."

- "After being sold the ship was refitted as armed trader and verifiably served in this role until 1757."

This means the Wapen von Hamburg III actually saw service as trader for 20 years compared to only 2 years serving as Konvoischiff ( warship used only for escort duty ) - the role it was first built for.

I think a increase in hold capacity aswell as a very minor speed buff would help making this beautiful ship more viable in OW without actually making it stronger in combat.

Currently it only has 748 hold while even the tiny trader snow has 900 and with its crippling low speed and small guns it isn't viable in OW at all, facing faster frigates and much harder hitting and more durable Bellonas with the same speed. Increasing cargo hold to at least 1200 and maybe speed by 0.2 knots to make it a heavily armed semi trader could give the Wapen a role in the OW and would also be historically accurate. The Wapen should however not be able to enter enemy ports like normal traders.

I think this might be the best way to make one of the oldest ships in game viable / popular without having to make it competitive with more modern and advanced warships.

@admin

[Njord]

Currently even the older Ingermanland is more viable in OW due to higher speed, only slightly worse turnrate, capacity to carry higher calibre guns / higher broadside weight albeit less DPS and on top of that more armor hp AND thickness as well as a better sailing profile. Christian is a very nice ship and I am thankful but I really don't see the point of adding more and more ships without proper balance and place in the game for all of them. It isn't an easy task but there are plenty of stats to work with so it can be done.

[Njord]

On 11/7/2018 at 2:55 PM, Phaserburn said:

The Wapen was DESIGNED for the purpose of being a shallow water ship. If you could add trade space too it, along with making it shallow water, there could be a heavy escort role for it in the Bahamas.

Well it was planned / supposed to have low draught to be able to navigate the Elbe river but Jacob Mencke, the ship designer, kind of hello kittyed up and the Wapen still had a draught of 5.5 meters ( HMS Bellona only slightly higher with 6.02 meters ) which is considerable. 

Also there would be somewhat a balance issue with its decent turnrate ( for a ship of its size ) and facing only  brigs and sloops, I suppose... 

On 11/7/2018 at 2:55 PM, Phaserburn said:

Also letting it enter closed ports, as Hamburg was almost entirely a neutral city for years and years.

 

no matter what, the Wapen needs some love.

Letting it enter enemy ports is too much I think but there should definitely be some buff for it and something with cargo hold and trading seems most fitting. I would wish for it to be a slow but heavily armed trader with medium cargo hold ( less than LGV and Trader Brig but more than any other warship ).

Edited November 24, 2018 by Sovereign

[Sir Texas Sir]

There is nothing wrong with the Wappen, I know many a folks that actually use it effectivly in PvP.   Now we could use a bigger trade ship in game that has a bit more cargo and maybe some guns than the Indianman.

[Njord]

2 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

There is nothing wrong with the Wappen, I know many a folks that actually use it effectivly in PvP.

Well, "use it effectively in PvP" is rather vague and I asked in another thread for recordings or battle result screenshots of PvP matches where a player used a Wapen to great effect vs skilled players. I did not receive a single one. Any superiour PvP player can kill a bunch of scrubs in any ship, but it doesn't depend on the ship as much as the difference in individual player skill.

No doubt the Wapen can be a decent ship when used in a brawl vs similar sized and smaller ships but it is rather useless in the OW where speed matters. I have seen Ram Dinark using a Agamemnon several times but never a Wapen... why is that? Why are there no recordings of popular PvP players achieving great battle results in a Wapen?

2 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Now we could use a bigger trade ship in game that has a bit more cargo and maybe some guns than the Indianman.

You mean other than the Wapen? Would be nice but it has to have some downside to not make to Indiaman obsolete... maybe it would have to be significantly slower.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Sovereign

[Njord]

On 11/13/2018 at 5:14 AM, Phaserburn said:

Close brawler it’s decent, but it’s lacking compared to other 4th rates in first speed, then that ranged penetration for your top 2decks. Then also because of the height of those decks, fighting smaller ships presents a problem up close. You’ll just shoot over them, or because of the 4 total decks, the vertical dispersion causes you to get screwed

Well, yeah the Wapen has very smiliar hp and thickness to frigates but presents at least 3x the target size to shoot at - yet another disadvantage. And as you mentioned, when frigates move hull to hull up to it then you have no chance of hitting them with your upper decks, especially vs low profile frigates like the Essex for example. The Wapen being slower than a sea cucumber does not exactly help with avoiding this scenario by not letting the enemy frigates get under your guns in the first place. However I'd say the low calibre guns and their poor convergence are the least problem for the ship.

 

On 11/13/2018 at 5:14 AM, Phaserburn said:

It feels great sailing, but the top speed hurts and makes it a HUGE target.

I agree. The combination of low speed, weak hp and armor ( comparable to frigates like Endymion ) , while being this massive target, makes the ship a bullet sponge more than anything else. The Wapen also seems to bounce shots off its hull less than most other ships, which is most likely also due to its very oddly shaped and stubby hull.

I still think turning it into a heavily armed trader that sacrifices hold space ( compared to other traders ) and the ability to enter enemy ports in favour of much more firepower would be the best approach and historically accurate. The hold space should be very limited to keep the normal traders viable ( higher risk and higher reward ). I think 1200-1400 hold space ( Trader Brig has 1750 and can enter shallows ) would be balanced.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Sovereign

[Njord]

On 11/16/2018 at 12:37 AM, Phaserburn said:

Are there any plans to re-balance any ships? Is there anyway we could see the stat lines on current ships? Average damage taken vs done. Number of fights vs players vs AI?

I think complete ship rebalance was planned for end of 2018? Constitution will be buffed aswell, according to admin.

 Is there any ETA on that?  @admin

[Njord]

What are your opinions on the Wapen in PvP? What build would you use on it ( if you would use the ship in PvP at all ) ? Do you think some stats need adjustment and if so which?

@admin @Reverse @Liq @Palatinose @Moscalb

[Njord]

Some of the best / most well known PvP players aswell as admin don't care about the Wapen in terms of PvP. What a surprise. What is the role of the ship in game? When will we get a total ship rebalance?

[Vernon Merrill]

Wapen:

vs.

Constitution:

 

(Or at least the way it SHOULD feel...)

[Njord]

43 minutes ago, rediii said:

The ship looks too ugly for me to use it tho.

I like em thicc 

[Njord]

13 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

(Or at least the way it SHOULD feel...)

That is actually a very fitting comparison. Two very different machines of very different technological possibilities due to advances and development over time.

The question is, if they were to be put in a game like war thunder, what would be the reason for them to ever meet in terms of gameplay?

The 88 KwK 36 L/56 completely obliterated allied tanks that it actually faced during the war. Firing it at a A7V from WW1 would be overkill.

So who would play the A7V? Why should it be in the game, facing the vastly superior tiger tank? Unless the A7V got some perk that would make it worthwhile in some area, that would still make it viable enough to accept being target practice for the tiger tanks it regularly meets.

I mean what's the point of the A7V, when everybody is driving tigers anyways?

 

Going back to Wapen, giving it more hold space and maybe a bit more speed would still make it an easy kill for Bellonas or outrun by frigates but it could for example carry some cargo while escorting traders and maybe be cheap enough to build to still make it worthwhile. Also as per my research on the Wapen, it would be very historically accurate as it served as trader for most of its lifetime.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Sovereign

[Vernon Merrill]

Agreed.  Should be a poor-man’s Indiaman.  

Also I can’t help but wonder what new gameplay options and specialized ship uses true bathymetry would allow. 

Its good to dream.  

Edited December 25, 2018 by Vernon Merrill

[admin]

On 11/3/2018 at 10:39 AM, Sovereign said:

I found an interesting piece of information regarding the Wapen on this wikipedia article about the ship that is sadly only available in german:

 

@admin

wapen buff is overdue. yes its coming

[Sella]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

wapen buff is overdue. yes its coming

[Njord]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

wapen buff is overdue. yes its coming

Thank you very much, Sir. This is the best christmas present.❤️

[HachiRoku]

3 hours ago, admin said:

wapen buff is overdue. yes its coming

For the last 3 years we have been buffing and nerfing ships admin. What is your plan? Do you want real ship handling or balanced ship handling? My point is that you cannot balance ships of different sizes in game. It will be a never ending cycle of nerfing and buffing every ship because there will always be a useless ship. If you make the game real a ship like the wappen is useless against the rest of the ships. It is a relic compared to them. What do you balance her against? Connie? Inger? Both of them would tear the wappen apart and the only comparable ships to her are heavy 5th rates. If you buff the wappen I think it will be to strong. The turn rate of the wappen is already very high and increasing the speed could be to much. 0.5 knots can make or break a ship. I am kind of torn by this idea but maybe someone can convince me otherwise. 

[Njord]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

maybe someone can convince me otherwise. 

I mean I do love how the Wapen looks but deleting it from the game is always an option.

As interesting as the ship and its history is, there is no place in the game for it, if it has no use. Hence I suggested it to be turned into a semi trader, which is historically accurate but there may be other tweaks to give it a place in game despite its age.

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Do you want real ship handling or balanced ship handling?

This is indeed a difficult issue. To simplify it, let's look at the extremes.

"Real ship handling": We are all sailing the same ship, except for maybe a few who would sail other ships for roleplaying or because they do not know better.

"balanced ship handling": There is a diverse selection of ships viable for competitive PvP and RvR, all with their own strengths and weaknesses.

Now I don't know what admin will actually buff but with my idea of giving it a minor speed buff and a major cargo hold capacity buff we could have historical "real ship handling" accuracy as well as some more balance.

If the ship is fine, why is nobody who actually understands PvP and mechanics of NA on a deeper level regularly using it?

If people are fine with it underperforming and being obsolete due to better and more modern ships available, why do we need it in game?

I asked in another thread about any skilled PvP players having successful and good fights in Wapen. I asked to send me replays, battle reports or anything that shows Wapen is a valuable ship that any really good PvP player would use for any reason / purpose over other ships. Well I got nothing. A few "well, it has good turnrate and is a decent brawler" comments... well duh.

Pros:

- 4 bow and stern chasers

- superior turnrate ( hampered by terrible speed and speed bleeding during turn )

- superior DPS ( hampered by low calibre guns that lack penetration aswell as terrible gun convergence )

Con:

- Tallest profile in the game ( yes, it would be harder to hit an actual barn )

- The armour thickness and hp of a heavy frigate ( Endymion for example ) combined with already mentioned profile

- low calibre guns lacking penertation aswell as alpha damage compared to ships of similar size and mobility coupled with terrible gun convergence

- low speed

-  low armour thickness and unusual "stubby" hullshape give the Wapen very little bouncing potential compared to similar sized ships and trying to deflect shots with your bow sometimes gets you raked instead, further diminishing the value of the great turnrate

- smaller and faster ships will sometimes be able to get under your guns, reducing DPS or they will simply escape, should you be able to outmaneuver them; the low amount of high calibre guns combined with bad gun convergence decreases demasting potential compared to similar ships

- bigger ships, like the infamous Bellona for example, are not only able to keep up with its speed or even surpass it sometimes, they will completely obliterate you at any range that isn't spitting distance due to the Wapens pitiful armor, low penetration / calibre guns and huge profile

 

In a 1 vs 1 with no option to escape, the Wapen can perform very decent depending on the opponents ship. But NA is not a arena 1 vs 1 game, it is all about the OW. And hence none of the real top tier PvP players even consider using it.

You know it's funny... the one place where the Wapen should shine as brawler and with its turnrate and all is the Patrol Zone. And what are the top players sailing in 4th rate limit PZs? The Agamemnon. All of them. #Wapenisfine

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Sovereign

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

I mean I do love how the Wapens looks but deleting it from the game is always an option.

As interesting as the ship and its history is, there is no place in the game for it, if it has no use. Hence I suggested it to be turned into a semi trader, which is historically accurate but there may be other tweaks to give it a place in game despite its age.

This is indeed a difficult issue. To simplify it, let's look at the extremes.

"Real ship handling": We are all sailing the same ship, except for maybe a few who would sail other ships for roleplaying or because they do not know better.

"balanced ship handling": There is a diverse selection of ships viable for competitive PvP and RvR, all with their own strengths and weaknesses.

Now I don't know what admin will actually buff but with my idea of giving it a minor speed buff and a major cargo hold capacity buff we could have historical "real ship handling" accuracy as well as some more balance.

If the ship is fine, why is nobody who actually understands PvP and mechanics of NA on a deeper level regularly using it?

If people are fine with it underperforming and being obsolete due to better and more modern ships available, why do we need it in game?

I asked in another thread about any skilled PvP players having successful and good fights in Wapen. I asked to send me replays, battle reports or anything that shows Wapen is a valuable ship that any really good PvP player would use for any reason / purpose over other ships. Well I got nothing. A few "well, it has good turnrate and is a decent brawler" comments... well duh.

Pros:

- 4 bow and stern chasers

- superior turnrate ( hampered by terrible speed and speed bleeding during turn )

- superior DPS ( hampered by low calibre guns that lack penetration aswell as terrible gun convergence )

Con:

- Tallest profile in the game ( yes, it would be harder to hit an actual barn )

- The armour thickness and hp of a heavy frigate ( Endymion for example ) combined with already mention profile

- low calibre guns lacking penertation aswell as alpha damage compared to ships of similar size and mobility coupled with terrible gun convergence

- low speed

-  low armour thickness and unusual "stubby" hullshape give the Wapen very little bouncing potential compared to similar sized ships and trying to deflect shots with your bow sometimes gets you raked instead, further diminishing the value of the great turnrate

- smaller and faster ships will sometimes be able to get under your guns, reducing DPS or they will simply escape, should you be able to outmaneuver them; the low amount of high calibre guns combined with bad gun convergence descreases demasting potential compared to similar ships

- bigger ships, like the infamous Bellona for example, are not only able to keep up with its speed or even surpass it sometimes, they will completely obliterate you at any range that isn't spitting distance due to the Wapens pitiful armor, low penetration / calibre guns and huge profile

 

In a 1 vs 1 with no option to escape, the Wapen can perform very decent depending on the opponents ship. But NA is not a arena 1 vs 1 game, it is all about the OW. And hence none of the real top tier PvP players even consider using it.

You know it's funny... the one place where the Wapen should shine as brawler and with its turnrate and all is the Patrol Zone. And what are the top players sailing in 4th rate limit PZs? The Agamemnon. All of them. #Wapenisfine

 

You are right with most of your points but what do you expect people to sail other than the aggy? Aggy is the only real 4th rate in the game. Inger too I guess but a wappen will never be better than an aggy or she will be op. Aggy is simply a more modern ship, a far heavier ship etc. The wappen does not have a single advantage over the aggy.  In a real life battle an aggy would probably eat 2 wappens for breakfast and an inger for lunch. The ship is already buffed since she has way heavier guns than in real life. You say low caliber but if I am not mistaking the ship is 24s and 18s right? Very big guns and if you think they lack pen power maybe we should talk about how 12s and even 18s still cannot pen most bigger ships. If you want to make her a trader than maybe give the ship the real life guns and crew. I cannot find exact numbers but I think the Endymion is even a heavier ship overall. I don't get it. Why don't we add triremes and give them 24s in the name of balance? The endymion is an extremely heavy ship and could even be considered a 4th rate herself. More comparable to the Connie. I get where you are coming from but when admin says buff I get scared. I am sorry but I just like realism and I don't see what buff you could give to a ship that is 100 years older than the rest of them without making its stupid. 

[Njord]

25 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

You are right with most of your points but what do you expect people to sail other than the aggy? Aggy is the only real 4th rate in the game. Inger too I guess but a wappen will never be better than an aggy or she will be op. Aggy is simply a more modern ship, a far heavier ship etc. The wappen does not have a single advantage over the aggy.  In a real life battle an aggy would probably eat 2 wappens for breakfast and an inger for lunch. The ship is already buffed since she has way heavier guns than in real life. You say low caliber but if I am not mistaking the ship is 24s and 18s right? Very big guns and if you think they lack pen power maybe we should talk about how 12s and even 18s still cannot pen most bigger ships. If you want to make her a trader than maybe give the ship the real life guns and crew. I cannot find exact numbers but I think the Endymion is even a heavier ship overall. I don't get it. Why don't we add triremes and give them 24s in the name of balance? The endymion is an extremely heavy ship and could even be considered a 4th rate herself. More comparable to the Connie.

Yeah, I agree it shouldn't be able to outperform the Agamemnon to keep it realistic but I see no problem with giving it a lot of hold space for example. It was a trader and a trader escort and should represent that in a competitive and balanced way in game or simply be removed. Like you said it is a very old ship but it still needs some strength / perk / purporse. While historical accuracy and realism should be cherished, balance should be the most important thing and ships that can not be balanced properly should be simply removed from the game.

25 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I get where you are coming from but when admin says buff I get scared.

Well, understandable but we should first see what the buff actually will be before we jump to conclusions...

25 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I don't see what buff you could give to a ship that is 100 years older than the rest of them without making its stupid. 

Like I said multiple times before, giving it considerable hold capacity increase would definitely be a buff that is 1. historically 100% accurate and realistic and 2. very balanced while not affecting the performance vs other more modern warships.

Speed could also be looked at since speed is the one stat that should be all about balance and not historical accuracy ( else we would be all forced to sail Endymions and Renommees ), which is also why we have the somewhat unrealistic speedcap. But I will see what admin does with it.

Honestly ship balance needs a major overhaul in general and maybe remove old ships like Wapen and Ingermanland, if they can't be balanced properly but I still have faith. Maybe they can add them for aprils fools or something then. There is no need for underperforming ships that have no place or purpose in game and nobody should be sailing.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Sovereign

[HachiRoku]

34 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

In a 1 vs 1 with no option to escape, the Wapen can perform very decent depending on the opponents ship. But NA is not a arena 1 vs 1 game, it is all about the OW. And hence none of the real top tier PvP players even consider using it.

there is no difference between 1v1 and 10v10. The difference is that in a 10v10 you are most likely not all the same skill levels. The only way to really judge ships and mod performance in battle is 1v1. If you increase cargo hold you increase speed. No need for seperate speed buff. I do not see how you can buff the ship without making her op. If mechanics do not work well in a 1v1 they will most likely get worse the more ships there are. Repairs and armour are making ships that perform slightly less than average, perform way lower because repairs just keep on increasing the hp and armour gap during the battles. This makes your turn rate advantage useless. 

 

 

[HachiRoku]

8 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Like I said multiple times before, giving it considerable hold capacity increase would definitely be a buff

I said it in comment above but is hold space increase not an active speed buff?

[Eyesore]

Making it cheaper/easier to build could also be seen as buff? Less need to change performancestats of the ship that way?

[Njord]

3 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

there is no difference between 1v1 and 10v10.

Agree to disagree. 1vs1 is where the Wapens turnrate matters much more than in 10vs10, because you won't be able to avoid fire from multiple sources with your turnrate anymore and you won't be as easily sterncamped in a fleet battle where your team can cover your blind spots, allowing you to sail a more potent ship even with lower turnrate in return. Just my experience / opinion. Also in a 1 vs1 most ships have a very good chance of running and escaping the Wapen, even if you are winning.

14 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

If you increase cargo hold you increase speed. No need for seperate speed buff.

Well yeah depending on how much hold space we are talking about.

15 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I do not see how you can buff the ship without making her op.

Really, you think more hold space will make her op? Are you serious?

19 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Repairs and armour are making ships that perform slightly less than average, perform way lower because repairs just keep on increasing the hp and armour gap during the battles. This makes your turn rate advantage useless.

I honestly don't know what you mean. The way I understand this, is you agree that Wapen is only any useful in a 1 vs 1, because in a fleet brawl its turnrate loses value due to multiple damage sources from different angles, and amour hp combined with rotating behind your teammates for repairs becoming more important than turnrate for damage control?

[Sella]

Maybe a thickness buff would be viable.