Patch 15: Tutorial testing and many other things

[jodgi]

9 minutes ago, z4ys said:

If there is no coding error than the coni was just a bad ship.

Click "H" for brace...

[Malachi]

2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Click "H" for brace...

Might be not enough. ALT F4 would be my suggestion. 

On a side note, can I block posts with the word Constitution in it?

[Odol]

11 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I dont see any scale the wearing can have a rad of miles. Furthermore I dont see a tack of the coni. Your pictures shows nothing other that a tack wasnt a prefered maneuver in battle.

All ships are judged by there sail plan and hull shape. If there is no coding error than the coni was just a bad ship. Might be fast but a bad regarding turns.

I am going to be the first to say... do you have proof that she was a bad ship?  

Or was the Java a bad ship? 

Right now the biggest issue with the Constitution is it turns even with its yards, like a freight liner.   It can be out ran, and out turned by a 3rd rate, which shouldn't happen.   I am not talking about the Wasa either.   A simple 3rd rate can out turn the Constitution with its yards, and if they are both built to historical numbers the Constitution cant out run it.   A Live Oak+White Oak Constitution is slower than ANY Oak+Oak 3rd rate.   God help the Constitution if it is facing a Teak+White Oak 3rd.  

The base speed for the Constitution should be the base speed of the ship in its current form in real life.  Which is around 12knts.   This means a LO+WO Constitution should do 12knts.

EDIT-

Also can we also consider the fact BOTH ships were most likely at battle sails not running full sails for this fight.   Try ANY of that in the Constitution or any ship for that matter at battle sails.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Odol

[Landsman]

11 minutes ago, z4ys said:

If there is no coding error than the coni was just a bad ship.

It's reputation most likely surpasses the ships actual capabilities but I doubt the real USS Constitution was as useless as it is in game at the moment... its rather innovate design probably made for a rather effective combat vessel but I am no expert. From what I read, it was a damn fine ship and it might have only been decent in reality but not garbage like in game... Maybe it's just some sort of anti US bias from the devs  ( don't know what other reason they would have to make a legendary ship like this so hello kittying useless all while they have no problem with Wasa being OP for months... ) ?

[SKurj]

My thoughts on crafting...

Well I don't like rng..  

I would rather see a system that allowed extra resources perhaps large expensive amounts, or expensive resources added that increase slots/builtins.  

If we must have rng in some form perhaps allow the possibility of improving your chances by adding extra materials to the build, add 5 copper ingots for a 75% chance to get a builtin speed upgrade, or extra canvas rolls for a +crew % ... even make players have to figure out what to add themselves to improve chances... (hmm mebbe not)

Add a drop down in extras of all the items that might have an influence on the build and let the players figure out quantities...

As for slot upgrades make that something like grease the palms of the shipyard foremen in gold for extra slots..  or materials whatever.

[Odol]

5 minutes ago, Landsman said:

 Maybe it's just some sort of anti US bias from the devs  ( don't know what other reason they would have to make a legendary ship like this so hello kittying useless all while they have no problem with Wasa being OP for months... ) ?

I have said that before....  careful going down that path.

 

The funny thing is the Constitution when it was introduced... years ago now, was OP compared to the Ingermanland.  And it was nerfed to no end to bring it in line with a ship almost a 100 years older than it.   Instead of returning the Constitution back to its former glory, they continue to ignore it.

[Landsman]

3 minutes ago, Odol said:

compared to the Ingermanland

Mabye they now should compare it to Wasa then, yeah? 

[z4ys]

15 minutes ago, Odol said:

I am going to be the first to say... do you have proof that she was a bad ship?  

Or was the Java a bad ship? 

Right now the biggest issue with the Constitution is it turns even with its yards, like a freight liner.   It can be out ran, and out turned by a 3rd rate, which shouldn't happen.   I am not talking about the Wasa either.   A simple 3rd rate can out turn the Constitution with its yards, and if they are both built to historical numbers the Constitution cant out run it.   A Live Oak+White Oak Constitution is slower than ANY Oak+Oak 3rd rate.   God help the Constitution if it is facing a Teak+White Oak 3rd.  

The base speed for the Constitution should be the base speed of the ship in its current form in real life.  Which is around 12knts.   This means a LO+WO Constitution should do 12knts.

EDIT-

Also can we also consider the fact BOTH ships were most likely at battle sails not running full sails for this fight.   Try ANY of that in the Constitution or any ship for that matter at battle sails.

All I know we have math applied to all ships equal. So we either throw away the standard and create fantasy or we stick to math and in this case coni is just a bad ship.

But Tbh the pvp dance we have in-game has nothing to do with what was real. We abusing all ships for stuff that wasn't important in that time. So yes maybe coni is bad design for our pvp dance

 

[Odol]

Just now, z4ys said:

All I know we have math applied to all ships equal. So we either throw away the standard and create fantasy or we stick to math and in this case coni is just a bad ship.

But Tbh the pvp dance we have in-game has nothing to do with what was real. We abusing all ships for stuff that wasn't important in that time. So yes maybe coni is bad design for our pvp dance

 

I dont know looking at that diagram of the USS Constitution vs the HMS Java, I would say it is pretty close.   Both captains were jockeying for position until one of the ships lost control of its rigging and was no longer as able to maneuver as quickly.   

Even when I look at other engagements like the Battle of the Nile.

 

Or the Battle of Cape St Vincent.

There was some crazy turns there for line ships.  

[z4ys]

25 minutes ago, Odol said:

I dont know looking at that diagram of the USS Constitution vs the HMS Java, I would say it is pretty close.   Both captains were jockeying for position until one of the ships lost control of its rigging and was no longer as able to maneuver as quickly.   

Even when I look at other engagements like the Battle of the Nile.

 

Or the Battle of Cape St Vincent.

There was some crazy turns there for line ships.  

The Nile battle is the only one with some kind of scale and there are no crazy sharp turns only drifting. Battle of cape saint Vincent in the other hand is not scaled. What looks crazy on paper might be miles.

Again we have math aplllied to every ship equal. Why screw up that balance. If we make coni a fantasy ship other ships has to become fantasy as well.

The balance in this game is realism of that awesome sailing model that effects all ship equal.

By the way did any of the captains had gps?  Is it a goggle maps plot of the movement or just an artist drawing some lines of the logs and memories after a deadly battle?

Edited February 2, 2018 by z4ys

[Odol]

1 minute ago, z4ys said:

The Nile battle is the only one with some kind of scale and there are no crazy sharp turns only drifting. Battle of cape saint Vincent in the other hand is not scaled. What looks crazy on paper might be miles.

Again we have math aplllied to every ship equal. Why screw up that balance. If we make coni a fantasy ship other ships has to become fantasy as well.

The balance in this game is realism of that awesome sailing model that effects all ship equal.

How is it fantasy when we have the ship still afloat to this day, with hard facts on it.  Not conjecture like the Wasa.  

The Constitution facts.

Top speed 13knots.

Displacement- 1900+ tons.

It is made of Live Oak and White Oak.  

So in game the Live Oak + White Oak vs cant even go 12knots.    If it did 13knots I dont think anyone would complain about it, because it would be a fast tank that cant turn worth a damn.   Which would be fine.   Right now it cant run, and it cant turn.  

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&tid=100&ct=4

Edited February 2, 2018 by Odol

[z4ys]

12 minutes ago, Odol said:

How is it fantasy when we have the ship still afloat to this day, with hard facts on it.  Not conjecture like the Wasa.  

The Constitution facts.

Top speed 13knots.

Displacement- 1900+ tons.

It is made of Live Oak and White Oak.  

So in game the Live Oak + White Oak vs cant even go 12knots.    If it did 13knots I dont think anyone would complain about it, because it would be a fast tank that cant turn worth a damn.   Which would be fine.   Right now it cant run, and it cant turn.  

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&tid=100&ct=4

You see may start to ask devs to increase base speed. That's what looks odd regarding coni. I agree. But turning no. I disagree

[Odol]

Just now, z4ys said:

You see may start to ask devs to increase base speed. That's what looks odd regarding coni. I agree. But turning no. I disagree

That is my main issue with the Constitution, it is TOO slow.  By no accounts was that ship ever slow.  Which is partly why it was successful, it was fast and tough, rare for ships of that size back then.  Like the Indefatigable, she wasnt fast, but she was TOUGH, after all it was a razee.   Right now the Indefatigable is faster than the Constitution, which should not be the case.

[maturin]

12 minutes ago, Odol said:

That is my main issue with the Constitution, it is TOO slow.  By no accounts was that ship ever slow.  Which is partly why it was successful, it was fast and tough, rare for ships of that size back then.  Like the Indefatigable, she wasnt fast, but she was TOUGH, after all it was a razee.   Right now the Indefatigable is faster than the Constitution, which should not be the case.

Actually Constitution was quite disappointing for the first years of her service. And her sister ship United States was referred to as 'The Old Wagon', being considered slow throughout the War of 1812. Years later, United States suddenly started sailing fast.

Ships, especially ships of unusual dimensions and design like superfrigates or razees (Indefatigable also had serious teething problems) require a lot of careful tuning, or they won't give you their best.

The devs are attempting to simulate this process by requiring in-game captains to expend resources and effort on applying speed mods, just as historical captains had to strive get the best performance out of their commands. I don't particularly like the implementation, but we should understand it.

And you can't just buff Consti's base speed until she goes 13 kts in LO/WO. Because then the fir/fir version will go 17 kts. You can't expect historical performance when the wood meta is so exaggerated.

[Odol]

Just now, maturin said:

Actually Constitution was quite disappointing for the first years of her service. And her sister ship United States was referred to as 'The Old Wagon', being considered slow throughout the War of 1812. Years later, United States suddenly started sailing fast.

Ships, especially ships of unusual dimensions and design like superfrigates or razees (Indefatigable also had serious teething problems) require a lot of careful tuning, or they won't give you their best.

The devs are attempting to simulate this process by requiring in-game captains to expend resources and effort on applying speed mods, just as historical captains had to strive get the best performance out of their commands. I don't particularly like the implementation, but we should understand it.

And you can't just buff Consti's base speed until she goes 13 kts in LO/WO. Because then the fir/fir version will go 17 kts. You can't expect historical performance when the wood meta is so exaggerated.

At least adjust the speed so it goes 12knots with a live oak, white oak build.  That would bring it more in line with what it SHOULD be. 

[Malachi]

Also,  let´s not forget that Conny carries 42-pound carronades ingame while the real one had 32s since Captain Hull replaced the heavier armament in 1810 and got a better sailing ship in return. So make Conny faster? Yes. But only in exchange for 32s.

[maturin]

The simple fact is, Constitution was tuned years ago, when it was the only 24-pounder frigate and there was no Endymion, Wasa or any other 4th Rate.

There was a moral panic all over the forum that Consti would be OP, with much wailing and gnashing of teeth. So Nerfy McNerf Face.

[Bragan Benigaris]

A LO/WO Connie with

Cotton Sails, Copper Plating and Gazelle (Perm)

and

Optimized Ballast & Speed Trim (Books)

(edit) was  at 12.01 kn with long cannons and 24/24/150 repairs (edit) before speed reduction

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Bragan Benigaris
Used pre-patch 15 data

[Fargo]

On 1.2.2018 at 1:50 PM, admin said:

carronades have realistic trajectories and drops - they were overnerfed some time ago and had to come back. they still dont penetrate anything serious after 500m and have bad accuracy

I dont intend to buff or nerv carronades. Penetration values are 0% realistic while you advertise realism. You cant just model your own penetration curves. Penetration is tied to velocity/physics. For balancing we can only adjust muzzle speed and accuracy. 

Trajectories arent wrong, but muzzle velocities are. I tested 18 Pd long and 32 Pd carronade by measuring time over 250m and comparing trajectories of different velocities. Your 18 Pd seems to fire with ~300 m/s, the carronade with ~150 m/s. Those guns wouldnt penetrate anything in reality. If your speed of sound is accurate it also shows that balls are too slow.

On 1.2.2018 at 2:03 PM, admin said:

carronades DO more splinter damage

What also is not realistic. But thats a minor issue.

[Malachi]

54 minutes ago, Odol said:

Not conjecture like the Wasa.  

Oh ffs.....conjecture?

Based on the documented sailing trials of her and her sisters, she should be one of the fastest square-riggers close-hauled ingame.

Is she? No, because balance, and that´s a good thing.

Same goes for her turn-rate, which, if the historical accounts are anything to go by, should be better. Would that make sense in terms of SoL balance? No.

 

And:

#pleasegiveWasa32pds/18pds

 

[maturin]

6 minutes ago, Fargo said:

What also is not realistic. But thats a minor issue.

Yyyyyyes it is.

Lower velocity + penetration = bigger, more lethal splinters.

Larger caliber = more splinters

32-pdr shot moving at 200 m/s will cause more splinter damage than the same shot moving at 350 m/s

[Fargo]

Just now, maturin said:

Yyyyyyes it is.

In this case yes. But a cannon at distance x would cause exactly the same damage/splinters than a same caliber carronade would cause point blank. Dependant on distance and angle a cannon could cause even more damage than a larger caliber carronade point blank and 90°.

To simulate this damage would need to depend on your penetration (affected by distance) vs. target thickness (affected by angle). You then would only define that a 24 Pd barely penetrating does e.g. 60 damage, damage for long, medium and carronades would be calculated realistically.

[Odol]

40 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Also,  let´s not forget that Conny carries 42-pound carronades ingame while the real one had 32s since Captain Hull replaced the heavier armament in 1810 and got a better sailing ship in return. So make Conny faster? Yes. But only in exchange for 32s.

You can mount 32s on your Constitution and get a better sailing ship also.  I often run smaller caliber guns on some of my bigger ships just for weight reasons.

19 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Oh ffs.....conjecture?

Based on the documented sailing trials of her and her sisters, she should be one of the fastest square-riggers close-hauled ingame.

Is she? No, because balance, and that´s a good thing.

Same goes for her turn-rate, which, if the historical accounts are anything to go by, should be better. Would that make sense in terms of SoL balance? No.

 

And:

#pleasegiveWasa32pds/18pds

 

The sister ships of the Wasa were both smaller than the Wasa itself.  If I recall correctly.  

It would be like comparing the USS Chesapeake to the USS Constitution.  The Constitution while the flag ship of the class, was bigger in every way than the Chesapeake, which was a more traditional 5th rate size.   Yet it was part of the original "6", Constitution, President and United States were identical, the Constellation, and Congress were some 300 tons smaller, and the Chesapeake was the smallest.  

So if the Constitution wasn't around today, and we went from documentation on the Constellation and Congress to get the attributes of the Constitution, then they would be most likely wrong.  As those two were smaller.

[Malachi]

28 minutes ago, Odol said:

The sister ships of the Wasa were both smaller than the Wasa itself

Wasa's sisters were just 2' 11'' longer, same beam, same depth, so the Constitution/Constellation comparison doesn't quite fit.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Malachi

[Odol]

Just now, Fargo said:

In this case yes. But a cannon at distance x would cause exactly the same damage/splinters than a same caliber carronade would cause point blank. Dependant on distance and angle a cannon could cause even more damage than a larger caliber carronade point blank and 90°.

To simulate this damage would need to depend on your penetration (affected by distance) vs. target thickness (affected by angle). You then would only define that a 24 Pd barely penetrating does e.g. 60 damage, damage for long, medium and carronades would be calculated realistically.

Sounds like you want the damage model from Arma3 or WWII online.

While you are right, at the range where a 24lb shot is the same kinetic energy as a 24lb carronade shot, it should do the same damage and the same spalling damage.  

But.... the difference is, at that range realistically your chances of hitting the ship are going to be greatly reduced.  Unlike a close range shot with the carronade.   This is why the carronade was so dangerous, when most doctrines at the time were pull alongside the enemy ship with in rifle shot range, (100m or less) and hammer them with a high rate of fire.  You really couldnt go wrong with a heavier caliber, lighter gun like the carronade.