Remove Ship Notes for PvP Marks.

[Liq]

14 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

No Offense but if you want to have Targets that you can massacre with no Resistance I would ask you to just throw some Clay Doves into the Air.

Not Tell new Players to try and Fight your Assault Rifles with Knifes...

Not sure why you're  now pointing at me directly but sure

Yeah totally. Not like Ive been taking 1v2 1v3 2v3 2v4 and even a 1v4 (which I obviously lost - after sinking one) all the time. Lose some, win some. Ships are cheap, so why would I bother about sinking in a decent fight

[Liq]

1 hour ago, vazco said:

You completely didn't understand me.

Right now you (and from what I know your whole clan) has following advantage over a similar group of new players from a new clan:

• you have rare books, for which new guys will have to grind for over half a year of active gameplay (or more, since they don't have means of entering epic events now)
• you have an experience, which allows you to get 20+ PvP marks on an active day. They don't have this experience, they can average maybe 1 mark per day for first half a year
• you have PvP books unlocked, which new player won't get until he will start winning with more experienced people who have all the books, refits and PvP-based ships
• you can choose any ship based on changing meta, as you have most of them already unlocked. New player has to spend a huge amount of time to unlock them
• at this moment, since you have means of getting PvP marks, or taking ships from enemy, you can sail 1st rates and Wasa. New player can't spend PvP marks for this if he plans to get PvP books
• you can access RvR by having access to Wasa and 1st rates. New clans don't have access to those ships, unless they're in a winning nation. Grinding hostility in something else than 1st rate is much more tiresome, while fighting in PB against Wasas and 1sts in Agas and Bucs puts you in a disadvantage
• you have Cartagena and other refits. New clans can't access those resources without contacts or alts in other nations.

On top of this, you have an experience which will allow you to beat a new player in an even ship 10 out of 10 times.

 

An advantage of experience is a good thing. All the other stuff is just plain wrong. If we want to have new players joining, we should lower the time which would allow for a new player to fight you or me on even terms. 3 months of grinding to get even chance is ok. 12-24 months due to all unique books and their bonuses, as well as bonuses of PvP-based ships, is not.

 

Since you were adressing our clan, I'll give you my PoV

1. Never looted any super rare skillbook from PvE - Gave up after a few tries. No art of proper cargo distribution, no ship handling, nothing similar. You don't really need it.
2. Well at some point you will have to start from 0, right? I remember my first days in the lesser antilles. I did get sunk a lot, but I kept going, because I knew it could have ended differently and I WANTED to improve. It takes a lot of time to improve in this game. Unlike Clicker Heroes
3. That's right, but thankfully there is also an admiralty store with similar rewards. Gazelle instead of Navy Hull as an example - Difference is not that great, and you can still perfectly work with it
4. Unlocked all my slots on surprise aswell as Belle Poule through PvP only - yes, that does mean my first few battles were fought without any slots, it's not impossible
5. Don't think 1st rates have been used in OW PvP for a while now. And why take a wasa now when bellona costs the same? Bellona is also craftable - 30 pvp marks sell for about 6 mil total, you should be fine when trying to get one crafted for similar price, right?
6. New players usually are not that interested in RvR - It takes time, join a bigger clan, get helped out etc - Or should everyone be given a Victory when they start playing? Current goals / requirements for an 1st rate or similar are achievable
7. Never used Cartagena refit on any ship, but I agree, it has to go - Way too much thickness on 4th rates and above already.

You see - In the safe zone, you can't get ganked - So basically, players have to rely on others attacking them, feeling confident in numbers etc. Sometimes they do win outnumbering, sometimes they don't - But most importantly, they gain combat experience, which over time will turn them into better captains, right?

Also, where are you getting the "grinding for 1-2 years" from? Levelling up to Flag captain might take about 1-2 weeks. After that, when working together with some friends / in a clan, ship crafting gets sped up alot. You don't need that much to craft a competetive 5th rate, and there is still the admiralty shop where you can get decent upgrades, which are just fine for learning.

[Cabral]

1 hour ago, Liq said:

Since you were adressing our clan, I'll give you my PoV

1. Never looted any super rare skillbook from PvE - Gave up after a few tries. No art of proper cargo distribution, no ship handling, nothing similar. You don't really need it.
2. Well at some point you will have to start from 0, right? I remember my first days in the lesser antilles. I did get sunk a lot, but I kept going, because I knew it could have ended differently and I WANTED to improve. It takes a lot of time to improve in this game. Unlike Clicker Heroes
3. That's right, but thankfully there is also an admiralty store with similar rewards. Gazelle instead of Navy Hull as an example - Difference is not that great, and you can still perfectly work with it
4. Unlocked all my slots on surprise aswell as Belle Poule through PvP only - yes, that does mean my first few battles were fought without any slots, it's not impossible
5. Don't think 1st rates have been used in OW PvP for a while now. And why take a wasa now when bellona costs the same? Bellona is also craftable - 30 pvp marks sell for about 6 mil total, you should be fine when trying to get one crafted for similar price, right?
6. New players usually are not that interested in RvR - It takes time, join a bigger clan, get helped out etc - Or should everyone be given a Victory when they start playing? Current goals / requirements for an 1st rate or similar are achievable
7. Never used Cartagena refit on any ship, but I agree, it has to go - Way too much thickness on 4th rates and above already.

You see - In the safe zone, you can't get ganked - So basically, players have to rely on others attacking them, feeling confident in numbers etc. Sometimes they do win outnumbering, sometimes they don't - But most importantly, they gain combat experience, which over time will turn them into better captains, right?

Also, where are you getting the "grinding for 1-2 years" from? Levelling up to Flag captain might take about 1-2 weeks. After that, when working together with some friends / in a clan, ship crafting gets sped up alot. You don't need that much to craft a competetive 5th rate, and there is still the admiralty shop where you can get decent upgrades, which are just fine for learning.

 That's the theory and I agree with you... but in practice, the majority of new players don't use this forum and read those fine advices. They will change to the top nation that provides better chances (provoking some unbalance) or they will quit.

[vazco]

1 hour ago, Liq said:

Since you were adressing our clan, I'll give you my PoV

Answering to your comment - I had a very similar experience with NA as you. I also levelled 3 of my ships on PvP only.

For just PvP you're mostly right - new players can take non-PvP ships. It's random what group you'll find on OW. Experience is the biggest factor. Even though you can be discouraged by fighting against eg. an experienced players with a tanked ship with upgrades who being alone sinks you and your friends, wanting to improve can be your drive. Some people have this drive, some don't - they complain about cheating and leave. They would probably complain less if upgrades and tanky ships were not an issue, however they would still complain and many would leave.

My comment is mostly about something else though. I had an experience of building a RvR fleet with a group of 20 inexperienced players, and 2-3 experienced ones. In RvR you're not able to compensate for those disadvantages, and they really influence new players. Experience is still the biggest factor, however people get discouraged by their disadvantage in ships, refits and skill books. A PB against Carta and Navy Structure 1st rates almost can't be won if you don't have similar upgrades.

We have a situation that either our players get discouraged by loosingin RvR to an enemy with better upgrades (and skill), or that enemies don't want to fight us at all, since they expect we have better upgrades (and skill). Instead of having some fun RvR, we get either empty PB's, or a slaughter when we fight against the odds. It'was ok for us to get slaughtered - since we were gaining experience. It changed when right now we can't replace our losses. Loosing eg. 10 1st rates in one day requires a lot of time to replace. Many our enemies get them for free from VM's.

It would be nice to give people easier access to basic RvR ships (eg. a Vic), so that from time to time we can fight an enemy who is not so overpowered that they know they won't loose their ships against us. If our enemies don't have ships to fight us, they won't. If we won't have RvR ships (and right now it's the case of only a few lost battles for everyone but top 3 nations), we won't be able to fight either.

 

1 hour ago, Liq said:

You see - In the safe zone, you can't get ganked

We don't have safe zones.

 

1 hour ago, Liq said:

New players usually are not that interested in RvR - It takes time, join a bigger clan, get helped out etc - Or should everyone be given a Victory when they start playing? Current goals / requirements for an 1st rate or similar are achievable

Our new players often join for RvR. They like cooperation, and fact that they can influence something. They usually join RvR (in diffferent extent) when they level up to a 4th rate. 

People shouldn't get Vic on the start, I never claimed it. They should however have a chance to learn by sinking 1st rates. When your clan is in a war against an experienced fleet like Rubli, Swedes, or other, you will have to sink many times before you can start winning with them. It's not always your choice to choose your enemy, that's why at least you should have ships to be able to fight with this enemy on more or less even terms.

 

1 hour ago, Liq said:

Also, where are you getting the "grinding for 1-2 years" from?

It took me about 6 months to get all rare books that I wanted. I didn't grind PvE endlessly to get them, however I also had some help (eg. I know how to trade, as well as a few tricks on how to earn money). For a new player I think 1 year is a reasonable time to get books like Carpenter reports, Ship Handling, Gunnery Encyclopedia etc. Some of them are a great advantage in RvR.

Edited January 1, 2018 by vazco

[Palatinose]

Vazco I agree to much you are saying - Rvr wise. I just dont on these rare skill books. One just doesnt need them. And the basic books which are available for combat marks (or something like an old flag officer - which isnt too rare either) is for sure enough. Its totally fine starting to pvp in those than grinding weeks and month, finally get them and still get beaten by more skilled players. Saw too many doing it and be frustrated. 

[Christendom]

I dislike this elite/hardcore vs casual mindset that some players on here have been spewing out.  Especially some that are most certainly not elite players.  Even more amusing is some of the players here saying the game needs to be more "elite" are the very same players who only come back for a week or 2 after every patch and then piss off elsewhere while they try to get more changes done to the game we don't need on the forums.  NA has tried the hardcore stance a few times in the past and every single time it just forced players to quit.  

Successful MMOs have good PVE/Casual content that keeps players coming back to the game everyday.  NA really needs to improve the game for the average person if they intend to keep the momentum going (spoiler: they haven't in the past).  In the almost 2 years I've been playing the game the PVE aspect of it has remained relatively the same and unfortunately people just get tired of it.  When all the casual players are muscled out because these "elite" players want to have a super real OW sailing simulator while wearing their Aubrey replica tricornes at home they'll unfortunately be all out of targets.  Happy sheep create happy wolves.

There are ways to make ships more exclusive, the marks system is not it.  The only thing PVP marks should be good for are cosmetic items such as paints, flags....ship names    whatever.  This way these elite players can sail around in pink ships just to show everyone how great they are.  I remember at the start of the wipe @admin stated that he wanted losing ships to mean something and while that's a decent idea, the marks system is completely anathema to that mindset.  I extremely dislike having to just sink good ships just to get PVP marks so I can now purchase the most OP ship in the game.  Seems wrong and 100% what this game should not be turning into.  But that's just me.  

I've got several wasa's in various docks just sitting there, I still use them to PVP and do PBs in.  I got several more I can redeem from the global server as well.  I've also got enough marks to redeem several more.  I'll be fine.  The noobs up on the east coast that RUBLI & Moscalb  farm every day are a different story.  They take their OPs wasa's and just demast the crap out of all their opposition.  It's fun to watch, but that well will dry up eventually.   Making the Wasa cost PVP marks is a move that is otherwise known as "lazy balancing" in the MMO world. 

Fix the damn ship already please.

------

As for victory marks, it's a decent idea to limit 1st rates.  The BR balance needed to happen before this was implemented however because the meta is still wasa's and 1st rates in PBs.  Until they implement the lord protector = marks thing though.....it's just gonna be an alt fest.  I hear there's an alt clan in sweden already raking in the MARKS.  

As long as there is any sort of mark system in this game it will be abused.  

Edited January 1, 2018 by Christendom

[jodgi]

3 hours ago, Liq said:

Since you were adressing our clan, I'll give you my PoV

1. Never looted any super rare skillbook from PvE - Gave up after a few tries. No art of proper cargo distribution, no ship handling, nothing similar. You don't really need it.
2. Well at some point you will have to start from 0, right? I remember my first days in the lesser antilles. I did get sunk a lot, but I kept going, because I knew it could have ended differently and I WANTED to improve. It takes a lot of time to improve in this game. Unlike Clicker Heroes
3. That's right, but thankfully there is also an admiralty store with similar rewards. Gazelle instead of Navy Hull as an example - Difference is not that great, and you can still perfectly work with it
4. Unlocked all my slots on surprise aswell as Belle Poule through PvP only - yes, that does mean my first few battles were fought without any slots, it's not impossible
5. Don't think 1st rates have been used in OW PvP for a while now. And why take a wasa now when bellona costs the same? Bellona is also craftable - 30 pvp marks sell for about 6 mil total, you should be fine when trying to get one crafted for similar price, right?
6. New players usually are not that interested in RvR - It takes time, join a bigger clan, get helped out etc - Or should everyone be given a Victory when they start playing? Current goals / requirements for an 1st rate or similar are achievable
7. Never used Cartagena refit on any ship, but I agree, it has to go - Way too much thickness on 4th rates and above already.

Bless your pure heart!

It's as much about the perception of bringing a knife to a gunfight. I'm worried we can't change how "the masses" think, heck! I struggle with myself in this regard. I got so tired playing mouse to the Swede super-fitted cats. They ground stuff, they deserved it, I ended up pulling out of the OW.

I'm not special, what I think doesn't matter.

But...

Isn't it weird that though being very motivated for OW, I can't deal with it?

BTW, @Christendom, I don't believe in "Happy sheep create happy wolves". You said "lazy balancing", I'd call it (sheep and wolves) lazy approach to a sustainable server pop.

[Christendom]

14 minutes ago, jodgi said:

BTW, @Christendom, I don't believe in "Happy sheep create happy wolves". You said "lazy balancing", I'd call it (sheep and wolves) lazy approach to a sustainable server pop.

You've also said you were an "MMO" expert, but then I think you said your only MMO experience was some airplane game that isn't an MMO.  I've been playing MMOs since the days of my 56k modem and Ultima Online.  All the good ones have good casual content that puts fans in the seats and keeps them coming back.  There's a fan run server of a star wars MMO called star wars galaxies (SWGEMU) from a game that came out over 10 years ago that has more active players than we do.  It's almost laughable.  Your current mindset is similar to what games labs is and that mindset has created a game that has sold over 100k copies and a year and a half later has 2000 active players (realistically it's 1000, but lets be generous).  So yeah....that doesn't work.  I haven't seen you pop up on the leaderboard or combat news in a month or 2, so either you're not much of a wolf or you're one of those players that says the game should be like this....but doesn't actually play it.  Either way you're wrong.

This exclusive sailing sim mindset that the game shouldn't be accommodating to new and casual players is exactly why we don't have very many of them.  Good work.  

And on that note, I'm tired of talking about it on the forums.  With the recent sailing/wind changes we've simply become the new testbed server for ideas that may or may not work on NA Legends.  

Edited January 1, 2018 by Christendom

[Hethwill]

laughing my atlantean arse off

gg jodgi

[Sunleader]

5 hours ago, Liq said:

Not sure why you're  now pointing at me directly but sure

Yeah totally. Not like Ive been taking 1v2 1v3 2v3 2v4 and even a 1v4 (which I obviously lost - after sinking one) all the time. Lose some, win some. Ships are cheap, so why would I bother about sinking in a decent fight

Except Mate.

For New Players right now. There is no "Win Some" Involved in that Equation.

 

They Lose Some. And then Lose Some more. And when they have done that they Lose another.

And this will never Change. Because NO. Ships are NOT Cheap.

Ships are Cheap for You and Me. Because we Play this Game for a Long Time. We can easily Run 2 Million Gold in an Hour and we have the Contacts and Production Chains in Place to Just Build us the Ships we want.

 

Unfortunately.

New Players do not have this. Their only Income is usually the Missions they Run. So roughly 200-300k per Hour Grinding at best.

And the Cheapest Ship I would consider Usable for PvP I found last Night was 1.2 Million. So roughly 4 Hours Grinding for a Proper 5th Rate.

Upgrades and other Stuff of course not Included.

 

If you go Roaming for PvP in a Standard Oak/Crew Space Frigate for 120k you can just as well Buy the Ship and Press on Break Apart Button. Chances are you Earned more than you ever will earn in PvP and on top you will be nowhere nearly as Frustrated when you do it for the 3rd Time that evening.

 

 

 

Guys no Offense. But lets Face some Facts here.

If a Game wants to Survive it needs to Retain more New Players than it loses Older Players.

And currently. The PvP Server is about as good at keeping new Players interested in the Game. As my Cat is at Math. They get 1 Mercy Point for Trying and thats it.

99 out of 100 Players Leave. And unless we make this Game more accessible to New Players. You can assume there wont be much of a Game left in 1 or 2 Years

[Hethwill]

Bahamas.

Shop ships.

Raid group.

Raids in other areas. Again in a group. Shop ships.

There's always targets.

Solo ? Possible as well.

Overcome the sense of loss, the tears and the salt and everything becomes clear.

This is not a Ego sprint. This is a lovely age of sail marathon.

[jodgi]

57 minutes ago, Christendom said:

You've also said you were an "MMO" expert

Even drunk jodgi wouldn't say this... I hope. If you can quote me saying that... actually, please don't, my mortification would know no end.

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

your only MMO experience was some airplane game that isn't an MMO.

You gotta go tell them they're abusing your definition of an MMO.

You're right about me having no experience in role-playing, eco and PVE MMO sandboxes. I've been avoiding those with extreme prejudice, so you can chastise me without restraint.

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

or you're one of those players that says the game should be like this....but doesn't actually play it.

I've pretty much only sold guns at CS since wipe. I would define myself as not playing even if I'm a semi-active eco/crafter. I never meant to hide the fact, but I don't want to be associated with those who threaten the devs with "do as I want or I'll punish you with quitting and leaving a bad and completely honest steam review".

 

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

This exclusive sailing sim mindset that the game shouldn't be accommodating to new and casual players

Since before your forum birthdate I've fought for new and casual players. Before we had eco I said "But let's not enable the rich to beat the poor by default". Go through my posts from 2015 and onward and count how many times I've argued to take power away from the powergrinders in order to enable starting players. I've failed miserably. Sorry.

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

we've simply become the new testbed server for ideas that may or may not work on NA Legends. 

The aversion towards Legends and the idea that OW is somehow abandoned or deprecated came as a complete surprise to me. You're far from the only one showing it. I'm still chewing on this as I find it very interesting.