Ship speeds

[Capn Rocko]

This poll stems from the recent Wasa discussions, however, it is about EVERY ship in the game (not just the Wasa). IMO if either of these options are implemented correctly, there would be no need for the other (hence, no "Both" option). 

[Hodo]

Remove the flat speed cap. 

Limit the number of speed mods and change their bonuses.   Make copper plating only effect the OW speed and the acceleration of the ship in combat, for example.

Set a max speed each ship can achieve with mods to 20% over its max base design speed.  So no Ballona doing 15kn.  

[Zoky]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Set a max speed each ship can achieve with mods to 20% over its max base design speed

Isn't speed mod cap at 20% already?

[Bjerg Bjergsson]

Get rid of speed mods (imo pretty much all mods) entirely except for copper plating which would operate as Hodo said above.  In general they make no sense to me in a historical sense and are rife for abuse in a gaming sense. 

Ships go the speed that they have in their technical document page or they have copper plating and stats adjust accordingly. Having 7-10 different speed arrangements is overly complicated and totally unnecessary for gameplay. 

What I'm saying is speed meta is one problem but the MOD META is the core issue imo. It removes a degree of skill and creates a sense of uncertainty when in PvP. If you see a ship you would normally be able to take on, do you still go for it with the knowledge that they may have speed/gunnery mods? Their longs have an +8% penetration value over yours. They can aim better thanks to Pellew Sights and their dispersion is less PLUS the ship moves faster. Or it turns at a rate a ship of it's type shouldn't turn.  Do you have new players learn the game and then reach a point where they start PvP only to realize that everything they learned about how to fight ships doesn't really matter now when you are in PvP? An Indefatigable can outturn you suddenly or a Wasa outrun you? 

I say remove mods almost completely. Maybe have 1 mod for each category (copper plating for speed, something simple for gunnery, something simple for sails) and convert the rest of ship XP growth into visual customization. Dirty sails or signal flags or hull paints etc to denote experience in a purely cosmetic sense and that is it. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Bjerg Bjergsson

[Hodo]

40 minutes ago, Zoky said:

Isn't speed mod cap at 20% already?

I believe it is 25% currently.   And a flat 20% is just a suggestion.  Ideally I would like to see each rating of ship having a max performance boost.

7-6th rates = 15% max

5-4th rates = 20% max

3rd rates = 15%

2nd rates = 10%

1st rates = 5%

No more speed boat Victories.  Or L'Oceans running at 14knts.  

 

This would also put the frigate class (4-5rates) back into their rightful place as the hunters.   And 3rd rates in that nice niche area of being a "heavy cruiser" type ship.

I would also make all trade ships the same speed as their non-trade variants.  It makes no sense that a Trader Brig is slower than a Brig when they are identical except for the crew and cargo.  

 

[Farrago]

Wasn't sure if the "limit amount of speed mods available" option would cover this...

1. Remove speed cap completely.

2. Speed (or even all) mods give diminishing returns (i.e. Strongest mod gives full percentage increase, 2nd mod gives half the bonus, 3rd gives 25% of the bonus etc)

[DeRuyter]

What @Farrago said ^^

I would also add wind and weather effect in the OW and instances, except admin already stated that weather and storms is not being worked on atm.

 

[Jack Jones]

Why take away yet more diversity and individualism ?

If someone choose speed over fighting ability so be it.

 

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, Flash Jack said:

Why take away yet more diversity and individualism ?

If someone choose speed over fighting ability so be it.

 

Its not individualism. Its every ship racing for that hard cap and then being uncatchable and the game basically turns into who can get the biggest ship to the speedcap. Which use to be connie and bellona and is now the infamous Wasa, hense Wasa being the most meta ship in the game atm

Remove speedcap completely, diminished returns for speed mods and see the PVP game shift focus to balancing armor and speed instead of full stacking speed

[Jack Jones]

8 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Its not individualism. Its every ship racing for that hard cap and then being uncatchable and the game basically turns into who can get the biggest ship to the speedcap. Which use to be connie and bellona and is now the infamous Wasa, hense Wasa being the most meta ship in the game atm

Remove speedcap completely, diminished returns for speed mods and see the PVP game shift focus to balancing armor and speed instead of full stacking speed

Why??

So that those who gank have yet more easier targets?

So that those who are not that good or don't like  PvP cant even choose speed as a viable defence choice.

Historically speed was a raider/smugglers friend it was their lifeline.

They should lift the cap completely. There should be more mods of all kinds not less.

Forcing people into PvP or dumbing down ship mods and choice would be a serious assault on player numbers. Most people play this game for freedom and sandbox not to be shackled to rules that suit a few lazy players who can't plan how to catch faster players.

Players should stop always trying to make this game fit their playstyles and instead adjust your playstyle to fit the game. This game is for everyone.

I PvP everyday. No problem. Sail to the freeports near your enemies and you will find plenty of pvp.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Flash Jack

[Guest]

- Remove the speed cap.

- Reduce base speeds on all ships by about 10-15%.

- Apply diminishing returns on mods that have the same stat.

- Run a balance pass on speed and sail force mods according to the outcome (e.g. do we need so many of them, should harder-to-obtain ones get a higher bonus, will diminishing returns be circumvented by combining the two since they achieve a similar end result e.t.c.).

[Zoky]

17 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Remove speedcap completely, diminished returns for speed mods and see the PVP game shift focus to balancing armor and speed instead of full stacking speed

 

6 hours ago, Aegir said:

 

- Remove the speed cap.

- Reduce base speeds on all ships by about 10-15%.

- Apply diminishing returns on mods that have the same stat.

- Run a balance pass on speed and sail force mods according to the outcome (e.g. do we need so many of them, should harder-to-obtain ones get a higher bonus, will diminishing returns be circumvented by combining the two since they achieve a similar end result e.t.c.).

 

This will fix nothing at all. Nerfing speeds across the board will just make everyone slower and will not fix any issue. Currently we have 4th rates (coni and wasa) that have base speed, sailing profile and turn rate of a 5th rates.  We need complete re-balance of 5th rates and up 

My view on current 5th rates:

Since wasa is trinco on steroids why would anyone sail trinco? If u hate cheating and don't want to sail wasa then why sail trinco over coni?

Endy is simply bad. Bad sailing profile, bad turning, bad armor and too much crew on sailing

Indef is too slow and bad at turning

P frig is good but is overshadowed by wasa a lot

Essex? No chasers at all with average sailing, average speed and average turning. It has nothing special to make it "work" in pvp

Belle is too slow

Surprise is in same spot as p frig, good but obsolete in age of wasa

Reno is killed by speed cap

Frig is just worse p frig

cerb is too "light" for 5th rate

EDIT: I forgot about hermione which just demonstrate how unremarkable it is

Edited October 27, 2017 by Zoky

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Zoky said:

This will fix nothing at all. Nerfing speeds across the board will just make everyone slower and will not fix any issue. Currently we have 4th rates (coni and wasa) that have base speed, sailing profile and turn rate of a 5th rates.  We need complete re-balance of 5th rates and up

It was meant as a working base, not a "this or that ship needs tuning". That comes later.

At least with diminishing returns and no cap the ship base speed will be far more important than the current "how many mods do I need to hit the 15 knot limit?". But sure, both might not be necessary, you can either remove the cap or reduce speed across the board (to make the cap nearly unreachable), as long as we get diminishing returns we wont end up with ~19 knot renos and whatnot.

[George Washington]

Each ship must have pre 16knt cap threshold line. 

If Frigate threshold line set at 12.9 knt with top speed cap at 16 knt then everything after 12.9 is = 1st. speed mod -25%, 2nd speed buff -50%, 3rd speed buff mod -90% effectiveness and 4th mod will have 0 effect on speed. 

Each ship must have custom threshold line set before top 16knt cap and every mod you add after that line will receive penalty (-25%, -50%, -90%) .. any speed mods after 3 have 0 effect on speed.

ex. 

Frigate - Base 12.3 -- (Threshold@12.9) -- Mod penalty after threshold 1st(-25%) 2nd(-50%) 3rd(-90%) -- 16knt ceiling ]

Endymion - Base 13.77 -- (Threshold@14.1) -- Mod penalty after threshold 1st(-25%) 2nd(-50%) 3rd(-90%) -- 16knt ceiling ]

Victory Base 10.81 -- (Threshold@11.2) -- Mod penalty after threshold 1st(-25%) 2nd(-50%) 3rd(-90%) -- 16knt ceiling ]

etc.. 

Easy.

Edited October 27, 2017 by George Washington

[Zoky]

You guys are still not listening. Most of 5th rates + wasa and coni have ~12.35 +-0.05 base speed and same-ish sailing profiles. Nerfing speed mods will change nothing in relations to ship speeds and their imbalance (biggest offender is wasa and to lesser degree coni). It doesn't matter if I go 12kn or 112kn if wasa goes 112kn too.  Only way to do it right is to decouple 5th and 4th rates when it comes to mods like speed trim and to make every mod specific to that rate. Example: gazelle on 5th rates gives 2% speed and on 4th rates 1% speed increase. 

And I'm mentioning coni for a reason. I still remember that coni was FOTM before we were cursed with wasa. 

[Slim McSauce]

3 hours ago, Zoky said:

You guys are still not listening. Most of 5th rates + wasa and coni have ~12.35 +-0.05 base speed and same-ish sailing profiles. Nerfing speed mods will change nothing in relations to ship speeds and their imbalance (biggest offender is wasa and to lesser degree coni). It doesn't matter if I go 12kn or 112kn if wasa goes 112kn too.  Only way to do it right is to decouple 5th and 4th rates when it comes to mods like speed trim and to make every mod specific to that rate. Example: gazelle on 5th rates gives 2% speed and on 4th rates 1% speed increase. 

And I'm mentioning coni for a reason. I still remember that coni was FOTM before we were cursed with wasa. 

Connie fits that because its the lightest 4th rate and is really a heavy frigate. It's lugging and outturned easily by 5th rates besides the endy.

Wasa on the other hand has no business being above 12.0knts. Not one of the best design decisions.

[Zoky]

9 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Connie fits that because its the lightest 4th rate and is really a heavy frigate. It's lugging and outturned easily by 5th rates besides the endy.

Wasa on the other hand has no business being above 12.0knts. Not one of the best design decisions.

while i never had a problem with coni personally I do remember that people complained about fir fir coni. In my opinion it can stay where it is and lets buff other frigs to ~2.9 turning minimum for a start

[CTC_ClanLeader]

On 26.10.2017 at 8:59 PM, Flash Jack said:

Why take away yet more diversity and individualism ?

If someone choose speed over fighting ability so be it.

 

There is no diversity if most ships can reach the same speed.

[Slim McSauce]

22 minutes ago, Zoky said:

while i never had a problem with coni personally I do remember that people complained about fir fir coni. In my opinion it can stay where it is and lets buff other frigs to ~2.9 turning minimum for a start

People complained because back then it was very easy to get a fir/fir anything to 15knt. Once you hit 15knts you wont get caught on OW sailing down wind by any other ship, same thing in battle, so you'd see the constant someone gets ganked, people try to get the ganker and they don't get caught unless by fortune the wind is in your favor for a Surprise to tag.

Since speed mods were nerfed the problem got better, things balanced out and there was really no super meta ship, you'd see all kinds of different ships being used for PVP. Now people have found ways to get their heavy ships back up to 15knts, light ships are useless and serve no purpose when a Wasa can hit 15knts and tag/run however it likes.

It all stems from the speed cap and the huge speed bonuses you can stack. Any ship can be made to go as fast as any other so the goal is to get the biggest ship to the cap instead of use the ship the fits the role. Imo lighter ships should inherently be faster than larger ones because that's the role you'd imagine a light ship to be, fast, nimble and paper; and heavy ships be slow, lugging and tanky. 

The lines between heavy and light ships are so blurred right now. Its like the ship you sail doesn't matter as much as the upgrades/knowledge you put on it.

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[IndianaGeoff]

Lack of weather effects are also an issue.

In light seas a smaller ship should be faster at most points other than straight downwind.

In moderate seas the medium and larger ships start to get better.

In heavy seas the big ships do better with the smaller ships becoming almost useless.  Sailing upwind is nearly impossible and the idea of holding station while letting the upwind ship be driven into you comes into play.

Probably too complex to be fully modeled but a useful goal to work towards.

But to the main point, there should be a handful of ships that are the best at any given point of wind and the system optimizes so they keep that advantage no matter what the mods.  Extreme speed mods should come at some huge cost just like tanky or boarding mods should also have more and more severe cost.  There are too many slots now.  You should be forced to chose one specialization and very minimal secondary buffs.  For example if you go full boarding, there should only be room for a very minor speed, turning, tank or firing buff.  You should not be able to max speed and penetration buffs at the same time as currently.

[Jack Jones]

On 28/10/2017 at 9:30 AM, CTC_ClanLeader said:

There is no diversity if most ships can reach the same speed.

Of course there is.

It's up to the player to choose what he wants from a ship.

Some want armour, some want survival and some want speed. Diversity.

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, Flash Jack said:

Some want armour, some want survival and some want speed. Diversity.

Excluding PB's to some extent: Speed is the strongest survivability factor in OW. So people with a clue will find the happy medium in wood choices then pay or grind superhard to speedoutfit the ship. These semi-tanky speedships are faster than the poor people's fir/fir ships. You think it promotes diversity but it's a sham.

I know you PVE'ers don't see a problem with this, but many players  come to a new game with two questions: "Is this game pay-to-win?" and "How strong is the grind-to-win factor?". OW has a disgustingly large bot-orgy-grind-to-win factor.

Anyhoo... I think you won the war because they let off on the speedcap and made bots poop more loot. GGWP!

[CTC_ClanLeader]

4 hours ago, Flash Jack said:

Of course there is.

It's up to the player to choose what he wants from a ship.

Some want armour, some want survival and some want speed. Diversity.

It is not the player who choose, its the mechanic wich force the player to do so to survive.

If we look at the base speeds of the ships, there is the diversity, but with a fix cap at 15 (15,5) knots make it all the same.

 

[Jack Jones]

3 hours ago, jodgi said:

Excluding PB's to some extent: Speed is the strongest survivability factor in OW. So people with a clue will find the happy medium in wood choices then pay or grind superhard to speedoutfit the ship. These semi-tanky speedships are faster than the poor people's fir/fir ships. You think it promotes diversity but it's a sham.

I know you PVE'ers don't see a problem with this, but many players  come to a new game with two questions: "Is this game pay-to-win?" and "How strong is the grind-to-win factor?". OW has a disgustingly large bot-orgy-grind-to-win factor.

Anyhoo... I think you won the war because they let off on the speedcap and made bots poop more loot. GGWP!

 

I am a PvP player thanks for asking.

And I PvP nearly every day. I also catch fast ships because I plan and work at it.

Many escape to and that's good.

Your style of lazy play where everyone should have the same so you dont have to work to overcome the challanges in the game is over. Live with it. Numbers are up...people are liking the game again.

It's all good. Stop being bitter.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Flash Jack

[Jack Jones]

1 hour ago, CTC_ClanLeader said:

It is not the player who choose, its the mechanic wich force the player to do so to survive.

If we look at the base speeds of the ships, there is the diversity, but with a fix cap at 15 (15,5) knots make it all the same.

 

I have always said there should be no cap ?

We agree then. 👍