Server Health is a Game Design Issue

[Hodo]

1 minute ago, Christendom said:

You of all people should know how many battles I've been in.  I enjoy doing RVR, but the time commitment is not worth the payoff.  

Sail an hour or 2, grind random AI fleets for 3 hours, sail back another hour.  Fight an empty PB the next day and receive marks.  Boring.  

And if you do get a fight, you fight an exact carbon copy of your fleet 90% of the time.  This is not fun.  Why bother doing RVR if all you are going to face is Heavy Rattlesnakes/Mercury, Aggies, or Victory/LeOs/Santis.  No need for 2nd, or 3rd rates.   Most 6th rates and 7th rates are a joke, and not even used.

 

[Bart Smith]

4 hours ago, BoomBox said:

is there any way we can support NA development with funds ? as stated before i have enough copies of the game and i just like the project NA. i really have no problem spenidng money on something i like , i mean my gf spends a hell of a lot more money on her shoes than i could ever spend for NA

Tell your GF to buy NA then:P

[Fastidius]

1 minute ago, Christendom said:

You of all people should know how many battles I've been in.  I enjoy doing RVR, but the time commitment is not worth the payoff.  

Sail an hour or 2, grind random AI fleets for 3 hours, sail back another hour.  Fight an empty PB the next day and receive marks.  Boring.  

I agree completely, 

 

When It all started the RVR game was pull a flag spend an hour sailing with  people scouting you and trying to tag you and getting out with the flag dropping it and getting into the PB then hoping you could get a few towers down before the enemy spawned in and started killing you....if it was pre april everyone had capped 3rd rates and blew the crap out of each other.  No one really won because an hour later we had recapped the 3rds....bt we had bragging rights.

now its 5 hours trying to find scarce fleets of AI outside of a port where no one cares and then waiting 24 hours to turn up to a probably empty or undermanned PB with no likelyhood of more than 5 ships being sunk before they run for the hills. Now we have worthless ships and no fights... OW PVP is trained out of people by the system.

 

even the length of those two paragraphs and the tone should highlight what we think of the end game now and then.

[Fastidius]

6 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Sure, but...

Are you telling me to ramp it up?! 

Also, not entirely sure I get what you mean...

If you have a job and you are getting a dollar a day. and they offer you two dollars a day you will take it because you are doing the same job you have been for more.........the job needs to be 3 or more dollars a day to hire someone new in.

does that make more sense?

or in this case...they made cannon craftable.....that's what we wanted yeah,  But they also made a workshop, a dependence on coal which is rare, the fact it doesn't give you any xp and crafting them. there is no variation in crafting them from one person to the other or any different varieties really nor is there an ongoing income from them unless you're a ship builder too or sell to one because canons don't die unless ships do so really cannon crafters are just another grind not a feature...

it's not broken and you guys got something new but for someone on the outside not playing we would say....why do it?  whats the feature, whats the progression etc..  were not as invested anymore.

As a tester you should be asking why are we making a new skill for something that we didn't need before...is it of value, does it add anything, why does it exist other than to burn money.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Fastidius

[Hodo]

7 minutes ago, Fastidius said:

I agree completely, 

 

When It all started the RVR game was pull a flag spend an hour sailing with  people scouting you and trying to tag you and getting out with the flag dropping it and getting into the PB then hoping you could get a few towers down before the enemy spawned in and started killing you....if it was pre april everyone had capped 3rd rates and blew the crap out of each other.  No one really won because an hour later we had recapped the 3rds....bt we had bragging rights.

 

The funny thing is, back then smaller ships had a reason for being used.  They were great scouts looking for the flag.   Now they are pretty pointless.  Why bother using a 7th rate or a 6th rate when you can use a 5th or a 4th rate for the same job.

[Fastidius]

2 minutes ago, Hodo said:

The funny thing is, back then smaller ships had a reason for being used.  They were great scouts looking for the flag.   Now they are pretty pointless.  Why bother using a 7th rate or a 6th rate when you can use a 5th or a 4th rate for the same job.

the los of all the shallow port battles was a mistake also...we lost too much of the biffo and got too much of the instanced AI crap.  Epics were cool to be added but I still think fleets in the OW were the best.  maybe single missions with no groups up to 5th rates to give people an easy access for a 30 minute thing to fill time

[jodgi]

9 minutes ago, Fastidius said:

If you have a job and you are getting a dollar a day. and they offer you two dollars a day you will take it because you are doing the same job you have been for more.........the job needs to be 3 or more dollars a day to hire someone new in.

does that make more sense?

 

gotcha.

____________________________

Now that we think back on the fun aspects of RvR from before...

I clearly remember guys saying it was broken and needed to change. It could be the "it must matter!" guys that complained while many others were having fun with big fights?

How does this all sum up for you guys?

(I don't ask to be an asshole, it is an honest question from someone who never gave RvR any serious thought or care)

[jodgi]

9 minutes ago, Wraith said:

and with good communication is the key.

How can they communicate more with us?

 

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

invisible changes that we are supposed to just figure out on our own is what's infuriating.

What are you referring to, specifically?

I ask because I never experienced this problem.

[Fastidius]

Just now, jodgi said:

gotcha.

____________________________

Now that we think back on the fun aspects of RvR from before...

I clearly remember guys saying it was broken and needed to change. It could be the "it must matter!" guys that complained while many others were having fun with big fights?

How does this all sum up for you guys?

(I don't ask to be an asshole, it is an honest question from someone who never gave RvR any serious thought or care)

I'm not sure which time admin is referring too but I would say that the first RVR change that was made that was a horrendous mistake was actually the uncappable ships.

You see the fundamental issue was that everything you took could be flipped back the next day because all the ships were replaced in minutes. and getting anything higher than a throw away 3rd was just throwing money away as we focused the named ship and they actually lost something of value.

 

Since that moment they didn't solve the problem by stopping us capping 3rds and 4ths they turned all capping off which pissed off pretty much everyone in the game except crafters.  crafters made money and money grew exponentially because there was no gold sink and then they added shipwrecks which gave free gold mods away effectively turning it all into boarding...

I think the part that admin is referring to is actually about trade goods not being available everywhere and having regional specialities....IE live oak north of Kingston...and umm I don't know any others really but I'm sure there are some.  Cartagena tar maybe also what he's talking about....but then there is coal being in one placed...which happens to be Cartagena too for the Brits....and that smugglers can't just go into those ports and put up buy contracts.......which sorta implies it wasn't an intentional way to force people to get alts...but thats my conspiracy theory based on heaps of leading evidence.   Effectively this was a way of making certain ports more important and effectively second homes.....ie cal at cartagenamakes carta the most important port to GB at the time because long canons were game breaking if one side had and the other didn't and also you need coal for gold and silver for furnishings for ships.....unfortunately map design was dumb for this as it wasn't on all items making a series of ports important just on a few things which made life suck as the ports were so far away from the actual contention points of the global server.....not sure on the EU server but they screwed EU with the locked TZ thing anyway so it's irrelevant there really.

 

Again layers of fixes impacting others making it just a mess.

 

 

[Fastidius]

 

 they make a Leaders of clan forum for development to discuss changes with and then the developers can actually talk with people who are responsible for many not just many responsible for themselves.......also clan leaders will talk with their guys of wisdom to come up with an intelligent response.  There might also be some people who are specially added by devs for special skills.....ie someone who was around sailing ships or physics guys etc...ala the warship post earlier today i think.  Just get less people who are responsible for more.  This is not a soloists game so really the clan/nation game is more important especially since thats the part that is most broken.  the clans will have traders in mind anyways as we have crafting needs etc.

 

I am sure there are others but ill throw up the Leaks increase of mid last year that cost many many victories etc being rammed by grey ships and cutters in a PB and also 2 victories i know of within 30 minutes of server up fighting trash ships out front of truxillo.   No compensation just a lot of bile about a change no one asked for and no one knew about......

 

and another change that happened because the devs wanted it and no one even cared really was the new damage system that came about a month and a half later......we had land in port battles scheduled and PBs pretty much turned off for MONTHS while they developed this but apparently making a new damage system was a thing they were doing instead of the stuff that was being asked about daily ......

Edited August 15, 2017 by Fastidius

[Christendom]

1 hour ago, admin said:

he meant that RVR player numbers are limited. But they affect EVERYONE's gameplay. By focusing on rvr players we might have ruined many things for an average joe. 

I think this is close to the mark.  Everything centered around content only 20% of the players actively contribute to just didn't work.  Making marks, BPs and mods reliant on a RVR mark system is clearly not the way to go.  

Honestly the version of the game pre-fine woods with flag pulls, abundant resources and simple/quick crafting was definitely the way to go.  RVR felt less rigid and more casual/organic and honestly the thrill of having a flag pulled on you and marshaling up a fleet was one that has not been replicated since.  Simply put, it was more fun.  

Bring a version of that back with a few twists and folks will return and continue to play.  We might even recommend it 😳

Edited August 15, 2017 by Christendom

[Fastidius]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Pray button? Ninja patches with no patch notes? Etc. etc.

I'll clarify: Communication that doesn't amount to laying blame on your players doorstep for the negative reviews you're receiving on Steam.  When you make a patch, which should be done weekly, with minor updates, fixes, etc. should be completely transparent to Early Access testers. Because that's what we are and what we signed on for: testing.  This is a model that works and has been tested in open source communities for decades and if you have a game that essentially is in a state of active development then iteration and tweaking with full, documentation of such changes is far, far more palatable than wholesale swings of the pendulum between extremes. This goes for changes to RoE, ship qualities, sailing profiles, masts, penetration, econ, the list could go on and on.

this is correct, every change should be in a changelog...like when its logged into subversion or whatever source control your using...

this is for 2 reasons   1 so we know what to test   2 what we are expecting the results to be.

Pray button is a good example of this

[Fastidius]

2 minutes ago, Christendom said:

I think this is close to the mark.  Everything centered around content only 20% of the players actively contribute to just didn't work.  Making marks, BPs and mods reliant on a RVR mark system is clearly not the way to go.  

Honestly the version of the game pre-fine woods with flag pulls, abundant resources and simple/quick crafting was definitely the way to go.  RVR felt less rigid and more casual/organic and honestly the thrill of having a flag pulled on you and marshaling up a fleet was one that has not been replicated since.  Simply put, it was more fun.  

Bring a version of that back with a few twists and folks will return and continue to play.  We might even recommend it 😳

i would make a slight mod to that.... regional centers have a safe zone around them and you actually have to make the sprints between towns with AI fleets or fast runs etc......turn on AI fleets in OW turn of AI fleet missions from port....they are bad juju...train avoidance not participation

[jodgi]

17 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Pray button?

Did that frustrate you?

17 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Ninja patches with no patch notes?

Name one significant change that was ninja'd in with no notice.

[King of Crowns]

5 hours ago, admin said:

the problems will be fixed (most of them)
we took the hardcore highway but missed some important things when implementing it

first things that will be done (mentioned in the preliminary changes to conquest and regions)

• we will rework the content so it works on minimal online providing stability for new players allowing them to build out and venture to pvp when they want.
• we will rework PB and hostility in a simple way that removes alts from port battles and conquest completely (clans will be able to set friendly lists)
• we will change ship prices and streamline some crafting blueprints 
• we will remove resources from conquest goals as it is a fake feature which blocks gameplay to average players (removing them from the game)
• we will change the main focus from serving pvp players to serving average players. (previously all the features were focused on making a player a target - in fact all the features were done to make a player a target at all times). 

in parallel we will improve UI and add localization.

You have to do something about the pbs only being 25vs25. that's just an unrealistic number at this point. it makes port battles a burden rather than something fun. 

[Lord Amplify of Key West]

20 hours ago, admin said:

You don't mention (very interested in why) that EVE required you to pay 14 dollars per month for how many years? 

So lets talk about it

• Players who spend 3000 hours (we have a lot) would have paid us 350 dollars already 
  • (if you play 4 hours per day every day this means 750 days or additional 350 dollars)
• Average hours in game are 100. This means on average players (if we would be EVE) would have paid us additional 45 dollars (so 100 dollars on average from a player.

Now what this means is very exciting.

• If we launched with EvE payment terms today we would be making approximately 300k per month (10000 active weekly players or 20,000 active monthly players). IMPORTANT: THIS IS EVEN WITH CURRENT ONLINE NUMBERS.
• This means.
  • i would be able to afford 10-15 more 3d modelers which will allow 
    • 5-7 ships per month with
      • ship interiors
      • deck views
      • stern and bow customization
      • sailplans customizations
  • I would be able to hire 10 programmers and writers who can deliver one major update (with NEW content) every month instead of one tuning and improvement or remake every 3-4 months. 
    • shallows
    • new ai
    • better missions
    • quest lines
    • manning forts
    • on deck boarding
    • multiship boarding
    • more crew on deck
  • Dedicated support and trained paid mods.
    • currently support is done by a support designer, qa and sometimes devs, which is crap as customer service must be magical. 

But its impossible as there is no subs. When haters post on steam DON'T BUY THE GAME - NONE of you you come to post something opposite there. As a result. People stop buying. Which is fine for us. People vote with the wallet and this is just business. 

You wanted to see a Grand plan - it was here all the time. We never said anything different. Its a box product with fixed content promised.
The promised grand plan is simple 
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=259130636

which is

The game will be shipped in 3 stages. 
Episode 1: Multiplayer combat. 
Episode 2: Upgradeable ships, crews, ranks, boarding
Episode 3: Sandbox open world, crafting and conquest 

Early access content 
10 ships
3 maps (weather and night or day)
These will be available after we get greenilght and get our build approved by Valve. 
PC Only. DX11 supported video card required.
 

Remember that we said - we will develop it based on your support and encouragement.

We delivered what we promised and more (3 or more unique port harbors, huge historical world, dynamic weather, day and night cycle, 10+ ships or maybe more). And the roadmap is currently just localization (promised) and user interface. 

After that we will work on NA until the sales stop. Based on reviews and community reactions to haters who deliberately try to stop new players from buying it is going to happen very soon. It will have community support and only new ships from Legends will be added to NA OW edition because the code is shared. 

This post above may sound very harsh for you, I hope it's taken as tough love.  I no longer want to hear weak excuses, or blaming developers. We delivered what we promised.  I want to hear optimism and confidence, and small steps in the right direction constantly - which means stopping raising expectations and accepting the game as is - helping players understand whats good about it, as we know there are good things otherwise you would not be here.

Another things is to start thinking for the game as a whole and for other groups of players who play the game. As too often feedback is just targeting one side of the story and make it worse for the other.

 

I am not saying i disagree with all your points but the new player expierence is simply losing the game players i hope you guys can implement the war company patch soon that will fix it due to the safe zones and wether you want to hear it or not with the current numbers 2 servers can't be sustained 1 big server will solve that and a lot of balancing issues as well

[Fastidius]

17 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Did that frustrate you?

Name one significant change that was ninja'd in with no notice.

leaks as mentioned above.

[jodgi]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You're such a fan boy

Sigh, I know.

I know many minor changes weren't communicated with us in detail, I just never expected it, I was just pleased to see that the devs were talking to us here.

Besides, there is the extra work, especially with a small team, to dedicate time to document EVERYTHING to guys like us who don't really test anything but are more concerned by using exploits. Notice I said "use" and not "indentify". (Ok, that was a bit too pointed, mebbe?) 

[admin]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

 Storms in battles, etc. that are now currently in the game (though rare) were never announced, etc. The list goes on and on.

it was announced 
 

Captains

Patch is being deployed to live servers

 

• Fixed the bug that did not start the storm preset in the instance

The lists of patch notes go on and on but I can't read that list for you mate. 

 

[jodgi]

8 minutes ago, Fastidius said:

leaks as mentioned above.

As far as I can remember all leak changes were talked about, though I don't remember if every leaks change made it into the official patch notes.

[admin]

11 minutes ago, Fastidius said:

leaks as mentioned above.

I can't read patch notes for you too
 

Good day Captains

Patch is being deployed to live servers

 

• Leaks rebalanced (it will be possible to sink ships with penetrating holes under waterline again)

[Fastidius]

2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

As far as I can remember all leak changes were talked about, though I don't remember if every leaks change made it into the official patch notes.

the first one didn't thats why it was a dillema...and we told them for days then actually cutterbombed a PB to prove it.

[Fastidius]

10 minutes ago, admin said:

I can't read patch notes for you too
 

thats the one after the one you apologized for i think.

it was the one where rams  gave you leaks and you disabled it ...its ok long time ago and i think you said it was actually something to do with the leaks code changes that hadn't been picked up or something but it was an unexpected disaster from a hotfix where the notes were not up for a day or 2 ...the notes are getting much better but timing was horrible back then and detail is still lacking in some cases and prompts a question seconds after posting them....and you don't reply very fast on those things sometimes.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Fastidius

[Duncan McFail]

1 hour ago, admin said:

• we will rework the content so it works on minimal online providing stability for new players allowing them to build out and venture to pvp when they want.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here but it sounds like making the the game more noob friendly. First and biggest solution is a small tutorial. I know you hate that idea, but a few of the reviews had people bagging on the game cause they didn't know how to get out of irons. If you want to throw back in the starter zone in the Bahamas go for it. You can have instanced missions. Maybe xp bonus for open world battles to encourage leaving port though. Maybe some random prizes for the first few levels and a notification that you even leveled.

1 hour ago, admin said:

we will rework PB and hostility in a simple way that removes alts from port battles and conquest completely (clans will be able to set friendly lists)

For RvR we're still in the same boat from pre-wipe. No one wants to go around looking for enemy fleets to kill over and over. There's a lot of cool stuff that could be done with clan controlled territories and unity 5 allowing bigger battles. Let's go back to instant gratification of immediate action. First let's introduce clan conquest points that are used to upgrade security of clan ports, purchasing war supplies, and to buy conquest flags. First step to a pb is forming up the war party and purchasing a flag(need at least 10 guys from war clan to be in that port). The flag is not an item it just gives a server wide notice what port you're attacking. Attackers will also have to purchase and carry war supplies from their port after flag is bought. The defenders also need to purchase war supplies after the flag was bought, but they can't purchase it from the contested port. These war supplies weigh 100 each, cannot be carried in fleet, and have a 3 hour expiration on them. Once the group gets to the port they start the blockade phase by joining in like it was current pb with a bigger circle. This creates an instance around the port in that area. There is no entering or leaving that area without entering into the instance. Attackers have a few spots near the land to drop war supplies and also try to stop the defenders from making it into port with war supplies. It takes 2 minutes per war supply to ferry them to the land/port. There are trader AI that will spawn in around the edge of the instance carrying some war supplies. You get 1 point per war supply. If attackers have less than 200 at the 2 hour mark conquest is ended. If defenders make it to 500 anytime before the 2 hour mark conquest is ended. If attackers are at 200 by the end of the 2 hour mark then forts/towers become vulnerable and it moves onto port battle.

Port battle would be pretty straight forward. Attacker needs to destroy forts/ships, move in close to the port, and bombard town till it falls. Maybe choose to take the port or loot/raze it. You can even put a timer on that of a regular battle. No senseless kiting or holding zones. Hoping with unity 5 you could have more people in. Maybe other nations could show up to crash the party. Maybe have some cool bidding on players warehouses in the port you took. It would only show quantity of different stack or number of ships. Kinda storage wars style. As far as multiple war companies hitting another war companies ports at the same time I kinda like the suggestion someone made about having buffed AI's for defense. We would need the pb time windows back also. Then get those super AI at times outside that window or when your war clan initiated an attack first.

This port battle/hostility system seems better in so many ways.

• Instant gratification
• Variety of ships needed
• Large group effort
• Lotsa fightin
• Although long at up to 3.5 hours less time than travelling to grind AI then going back for pb
• Plenty of response time compared to old flag system

1 hour ago, admin said:

we will change ship prices and streamline some crafting blueprints 

Maybe just cut down the permit prices a bit, increase rigging parts/blocks/provisions output, cut cannon mats/labor in half, and increase repair/rum output greatly. Crafted ships need a big gap over store bought and definitely over capped. 

1 hour ago, admin said:

we will remove resources from conquest goals as it is a fake feature which blocks gameplay to average players (removing them from the game)

I dislike having to travel all over the map to get resources to make the perm mods. Having only 1 or 2 locations that spawn them is harsh. That's days of fighting bidding wars to maybe be able to get enough for 2 mods. I can't even imagine it for the less dedicated. The wood types are another pain, but at least less of a pain on global at least.

1 hour ago, admin said:

we will change the main focus from serving pvp players to serving average players. (previously all the features were focused on making a player a target - in fact all the features were done to make a player a target at all times).

This is a comment that I fear will bring very extreme and unwanted changes. The biggest problems I saw on the steam reviews was the huge grind. I play this game a lot and grinding missions is a big turnoff that I have to force myself to do. I took the days of having all slots unlocked for granted. Not having slots unlocked hurts being competitive. All these rare find books hurts being competitive. I thought the days of a mod being more expensive than a ship were gone. Things like not being able to send ships to port, no tp to free towns, and no deliveries between free ports have done their job and gotten players on the OW. Counter-tagging is still a problem. Super speed needs to only be on the defender. New tag circle is great. 

@admin you guys are doing a great job. The game is coming a long well and I'm sure you'll hit a good balance soon enough.

[jodgi]

5 minutes ago, Fastidius said:

the first one didn't thats why it was a dillema...and we told them for days then actually cutterbombed a PB to prove it.

You may be right, I don't remember what was said about "the first one" or not.