Trying to solve revenge fleet problem

[TommyShelby]

4 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

Trolling for having an opinion that is not the same as yours.... *Slow Clap* well done.... what a muppet you are if you think everyone who disagrees with you is a troll!..

Thats actually not the reason but okay

Your not actually reading the comments i've made, you claim our playstyle is ganking and wanting an easy game, yet you have no idea what our playstyle is. 
This is the reason why i call you a troll. 

PS. Yes, i'm a big time gangster.

I'll try again though;

7 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

Thanks for a sensible response I shall return the favor o7

Q - "you do understand this is only being discussed because of the fact we've got two dimensions, battle and OW instance, and therefore anyone can use the hyper speed of OW         as an advantage to camp on an exact battle position"

A - Well yes, but you also traveled at the same speed to reach your pray so if it's good enough for you why not for other players?

Q - would have taken ages getting there, if we didnt have the luxury of ow speed boost and

A - Yes but as I have advised, you and other people complaining here have also made us of the 75 times faster in OW in order to get to your hunting ground.

Everyone in OW is traveling at the same time compression. On OW we are all equal. 
The Hunter and the Victim are equal. 

The problem occurs once someone is in Battle where time compression isn't the same as on the OW. With the "What you see is what you get" RoE that we also advocate for noone can abuse the fact that the OW Time Compression is 75 times faster than the time compression in battles.

Edited June 18, 2017 by TommyShelby

[Rick Astley]

1 minute ago, TommyShelby said:

Thats actually not the reason but okay

Your not actually reading the comments i've made, you claim our playstyle is ganking and wanting an easy game, yet you have no idea what our playstyle is. 
This is the reason why i call you a troll. 

I'll try again though;

I read everything from the first page until I replied, I reasons stand still. You will not get fleets waiting in port on the of chance there clan mate is getting ganked, they will still need to sail back to a port/change ships/ relocate to come and help there clan mates out. So you already have an advantage. The problems that I see, is ships sailing near the area notice you chasing an allied ship and proceed to encounter you and support the fellow nations ship. Nothing a lookout in the day would not report to the officer of the watch and then passed to the officer of the day who then relays that message to you the captain.

 

Everyone in OW is traveling at the same time compression. On OW we are all equal. 
The Hunter and the Victim are equal. 

The problem occurs once someone is in Battle where time compression isn't the same as on the OW. With the "What you see is what you get" RoE that we also advocate for noone can abuse the fact that the OW Time Compression is 75 times faster than the time compression in battles.

As I have stated above, chances are it was players in the area that saw what you were doing and proceeded to engage, if I see captains tagged in front of me... I'll go to help them.

As I have stated in red to reply, hope that answers your question, from my clan personally and others we work closely with we always escort Traders as a clan, we never sail them alone. I find it hard to believe that it is a clan waiting for you after you ganking there ship as I rarely see it unless there clan is sailing close by.

[TommyShelby]

Oh, and just for the heck of it here is something my lover @Prater made once upon a time when we discussed this kinda stuff. 
 

On 7/14/2015 at 6:57 AM, Prater said:

The join timer is currently at 10 minutes.  The speed we see our ships going on open world is not knots.  It is roughly km/minute.  This means that if I am going 10 knots on open world, I can travel 100km.  If I am traveling 15 knots, I can go 150 km in 10 minutes.  If I am going 20 knots, I can go 200km.  The average speed fit frigate goes 20+ knots at its best point of sail.

 

 

Let's assume that I am in a frigate that goes 20 knots.  Starting at Plymouth, Montserrat, I have enough time to get to any battle in this blue circle if the wind is with me.

 

 

Here is the distance in 5 minutes

 

Here is the distance in 2 minutes

 

Here is the 30 seconds that Kaos and Mr Doran are proposing

I tested this theory out.

My coni is speed fit. It reaches between 22-24 knots at the best point of sail. I left Plymouth and this is how far I traveled in 10 minutes. I went a little more than 200km.

Now in fact, OW Speed have been made even higher since Prater made this nice post, so its not entirely accurate (You'd actually travel even further now than what is shown in the quote). 
I hope this might make it easier to understand why we think revenge fleets and longer join timers is a problem.

[Prater]

My quote is for 20 knots.  I have ships that reach 28 knots now.  I could make a new one for 30 knots.

[marti]

Sounds like someone wants a buff to their playstyle. Just git gud will you? If you stray far into enemy territory to gank off players theres a risk, just like there's a risk to trading even within friendly territory.

[TommyShelby]

Just now, Rick Astley said:

As I have stated in red to reply, hope that answers your question, from my clan personally and others we work closely with we always escort Traders as a clan, we never sail them alone. I find it hard to believe that it is a clan waiting for you after you ganking there ship as I rarely see it unless there clan is sailing close by.

Welp, maybe its because i'm a big time gangster or something?
I've had only a small amount of PvP battles since the wipe but 7 of the what, 11 times i had a PvP fight, i was revenge ganked or someone tried to revenge gank me. (And no, i wasn't near their waters or their capital most of the times.) 

Last time Revenge Fleets were a thing it also happened alot. And well, as soon as people figure out how to do them properly (Most "Revenge Fleets" are making a ton of mistakes atm when it comes to "how to revenge fleet"), you will not be able to escape... 
We tested it before, it wasn't good gameplay. TP from Battle Result Screen was introduced for a reason. I'm not sure why Devs think it will change now.

[TommyShelby]

1 minute ago, Prater said:

My quote is for 20 knots.  I have ships that reach 28 knots now.  I could make a new one for 30 knots.

+ The OW Speed itself has been increased by something like 30% now compared to back then. 

[Rick Astley]

1 minute ago, TommyShelby said:

Oh, and just for the heck of it here is something my lover @Prater made once upon a time when we discussed this kinda stuff. 
 

Now in fact, OW Speed have been made even higher since Prater made this nice post, so its not entirely accurate (You'd actually travel even further now than what is shown in the quote). 
I hope this might make it easier to understand why we think revenge fleets and longer join timers is a problem.

Do you have screenshots in the battle where players joined? was it just 1 clan though or ships that sailed close?

I tagged a guy that was sailing past New Edinburgh towards Cartagena, he called for help... but even ships hunting and about to do missions tried to join but by the time they sailed to the area the Battle was closed.. They could not join.

 

 

[TommyShelby]

Just now, Rick Astley said:

Do you have screenshots in the battle where players joined? was it just 1 clan though or ships that sailed close?

I tagged a guy that was sailing past New Edinburgh towards Cartagena, he called for help... but even ships hunting and about to do missions tried to join but by the time they sailed to the area the Battle was closed.. They could not join.

You are now referring to the "Battle Join Timer" which has been reduced to 3 minutes (Close to "What you see is what you get", close). Effectively this means that people that are more than 3 minutes away can't join the battle. (This is good. I prefer 2 min timers or Insta Close battles where everything in sight is pulled into battle since it means someone outside of view range cant' join.) 
- Organized gank fleets can abuse the fact that they can hide ships outside view range, it might not be happening right now but it will happen in the future as previous testing have shown.

What we are actually discussing in this topic is the fact that "Revenge Fleets" (People that are say, 10-60 minutes away from where you battle is taking place, can travel to the location of the battle at the speed of light. Then they can make a "net" to catch you. When you jump out you have a ton of people waiting there. 
Admin claims these fleets are "Home Defense Fleets", yet most of the time i'm "Revenge Ganked" the people revenge ganking me are nowhere near their capital, home waters or even their own ports. 
It doesn't make any sense. 

 

[Rick Astley]

2 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Welp, maybe its because i'm a big time gangster or something?
I've had only a small amount of PvP battles since the wipe but 7 of the what, 11 times i had a PvP fight, i was revenge ganked or someone tried to revenge gank me. (And no, i wasn't near their waters or their capital most of the times.) 

Last time Revenge Fleets were a thing it also happened alot. And well, as soon as people figure out how to do them properly (Most "Revenge Fleets" are making a ton of mistakes atm when it comes to "how to revenge fleet"), you will not be able to escape... 
We tested it before, it wasn't good gameplay. TP from Battle Result Screen was introduced for a reason. I'm not sure why Devs think it will change now.

Well a simple solution would be when a ship surrenders or is sunk/captured the captain of said ship is removed from battle so cannot relay when you leave the battle.

This way you are given a private window of the 15 minutes to leave when you require so they would not know when you leave or how far with the invisibility.

[TommyShelby]

1 minute ago, Rick Astley said:

Well a simple solution would be when a ship surrenders or is sunk/captured the captain of said ship is removed from battle so cannot relay when you leave the battle.

This way you are given a private window of the 15 minutes to leave when you require so they would not know when you leave or how far with the invisibility.

There is a really high chance they will stay for those 15 minutes because they KNOW that you have to leave within 15 minutes. 
Invisibility only helps if it is high enough, the revenge fleet tends to be 10-20 ships (Yup, sucks ass...), they will make a circle so big that your invisibility will run out before you "escape" the circle. 

Furthermore longer invisibility will be abused as we've seen in previous testing (and as some people have experienced already since it was reintroduced).

[Hawkwood]

23 hours ago, Liquicity said:

Absolutely unnecessary comment.

If you have nothing valuable to add to the discussion, remain silent.

(I bet you are one of those waiting in the capital for someone to call out a target so you can easymode jump him in a 10v1 being served on a silverplate.)

Players will get bored by this type of pvp quite quickly.

I have the right to express an opinion as much as you do, or anyone else.

Just don`t think that yours are better than others.

Tbh, less of such "opinions" of yours, would maybe be better for this molested game.

 

[Liq]

Just now, Cortez said:

I have the right to express an opinion as much as you do, or anyone else.

Just don`t think that yours are better than others.

Tbh, less of such "opinions" of yours, would maybe be better for this molested game.

 

By saying a thread / discussion is obsolete / unnecessary you kinda sold yourself already.

Of course anyone has the right to add his opinion, but saying straight away a discussion is useless, seems pretty ignorant.

Keep on revengeganking to boost your ego

[marti]

Honestly, if you find yourself surrounded by a 10-20 ship fleet you've wasted so much of their time and manpower that it's strategically worth it even if you get captured or sunk eventually.

[Hawkwood]

Just now, Liquicity said:

By saying a thread / discussion is obsolete / unnecessary you kinda sold yourself already.

Of course anyone has the right to add his opinion, but saying straight away a discussion is useless, seems pretty ignorant.

Keep on revengeganking to boost your ego

It is obsolete because it can not be improved.

Play in Arena when it comes out to have a "fair" fight.

Will boost your Ego as well.

[Lataffiole]

On 6/17/2017 at 6:33 PM, admin said:

any tag becomes too powerful
that's why it is so painful to unsee the BRS 

You could escape any battle before. You cannot escape a smart opponent now if you are in his home waters. 

• attack npc - tp to home port or sit in battle screen
• attack a pirate - tp to home port or sit in battle screen
• join a battle or a mission - tp to home port or sit in battle screen

Now if you see the enemy and if you have numbers you know if he does make mistakes = he will sink today. 
Why should we deny this gameplay to another side? They have fun sinking people who venture into their homes to kill them
 

Now if you see the enemy and if you have numbers you know if he does make mistakes = he will sink today. 
 

The actual problem is for solo pvp player or small group face is that you dont have to make mistake to get sunk from a camped battle.

- 1 They can engage you all night long because the insibility is to short so its a  99% successful tag.

( this happened to me 7 times on a row last night )

- 2 Even if you run each time  that will lead after hours losted to the fact that you have no more rig repair and so get sunk.

( This happened to me this week after 5 successfull tags in a row and nearly two hours wasted then i get sunk )

- 3 The fact that the max speed is cap lead to 99% you will get sink because they are all over.

- 4 You cant log out anyway so you will get sunk as you will need to log out to sleep

So at the end you end up with 1 or 2 successfull tag then you get chassed all night long and finaly got sunk.

then basic cutter for the way back.

What about closing the battle directly if Br is egual or higher in order to creat 1vs1 ? is that unfair too ? 

Why should we deny this gameplay to another side? as you said ? 

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Lataffiole

[TommyShelby]

2 minutes ago, Cortez said:

It is obsolete because it can not be improved.

Play in Arena when it comes out to have a "fair" fight.

Will boost your Ego as well.

Read the posts and realise noone here is asking for "fair fights". 

[Hawkwood]

Just now, TommyShelby said:

Read the posts and realise noone here is asking for "fair fights". 

No?

What is the problem then with "revenge" fleet?

[TommyShelby]

Just now, Cortez said:

No?

What is the problem then with "revenge" fleet?

Read the comments made in the topic, even just the comments on page 5. 
If you can't be bothered reading please don't flood the topic with shitposts that doesn't contribute to the discussion. 
Cheers.

[Hawkwood]

Just now, TommyShelby said:

Read the comments made in the topic, even just the comments on page 5. 
If you can't be bothered reading please don't flood the topic with shitposts that doesn't contribute to the discussion. 
Cheers.

I read the comments, don`t worry.

About flooding the Topics/Threads, you as Liquicity is one of those who would like to sail around in their fancy ships, do PeeWeePee, and be a gentleman all the time, winning, but hey, "i would like to escape the battle, after i win a "fair fight, without being ganked, so this is all "unbalanced", let me suggest something that suits me, and my clan, so i can play the game."

I am contributing the discussion, but seem to me YOUR opinion in YOUR opinion, is MORE worth than mine. Not gonna work.

I have no problem to sail in enemy waters, and raid, alone or with friendlies..If 10 enemies are waiting outside, so be it.50/50 chance on fast ship to survive.

Fair enough for me, a problem for you apparently.

We had a fair compromise for attackers and defenders. 5 minutes time to join a battle, and 60 seconds to escape after that. It wasn`t perfect, but it was fair.

Now we have 3 minutes to join the battle, and 30 seconds invisibility, thanks to such players like you.

And now we are talking AGAIN about revenge fleets.

Go figure what is wrong here.

[TommyShelby]

1 minute ago, Cortez said:

Go figure what is wrong here.

One thing that is wrong here is the fact that you fail to read and understand the issues that comes with Battles being open for longer than 2 minutes + the issues that comes with "battle camping". 
 

[Hawkwood]

Just now, TommyShelby said:

One thing that is wrong here is the fact that you fail to read and understand the issues that comes with Battles being open for longer than 2 minutes + the issues that comes with "battle camping". 
 

There were no issues about that.

You have an issue on it.

[Prater]

Here are updated distances.

From Left to Right:  Kingston/Port Royal, La Tortue, Plymouth (for comparison to my last diagram.  notice how you can make Martinique now).  this is for 26 knots.

There are issues with it.  Why the heck should people be able to sail 600 nautical miles to camp a battle just because their friends in the battle got outplayed and they can't take a defeat?  The issue is the disconnect between time x1 in battle and time x75 in the Open World (compression).  If you don't see a problem with the disconnect between some players running at speed x1 and others at speed x75, you are missing the picture.

And do I have to say we have teamspeak, discord, and nation chat, aka Radio, which wasn't available then?

Edited June 18, 2017 by Prater

[Liq]

6 minutes ago, Cortez said:

I read the comments, don`t worry.

About flooding the Topics/Threads, you as Liquicity is one of those who would like to sail around in their fancy ships, do PeeWeePee, and be a gentleman all the time, winning, but hey, "i would like to escape the battle, after i win a "fair fight, without being ganked, so this is all "unbalanced", let me suggest something that suits me, and my clan, so i can play the game."

I am contributing the discussion, but seem to me YOUR opinion in YOUR opinion, is MORE worth than mine. Not gonna work.

I have no problem to sail in enemy waters, and raid, alone or with friendlies..If 10 enemies are waiting outside, so be it.50/50 chance on fast ship to survive.

Fair enough for me, a problem for you apparently.

We had a fair compromise for attackers and defenders. 5 minutes time to join a battle, and 60 seconds to escape after that. It wasn`t perfect, but it was fair.

Now we have 3 minutes to join the battle, and 30 seconds invisibility, thanks to such players like you.

And now we are talking AGAIN about revenge fleets.

Go figure what is wrong here.

It's got nothing to do with 'fair fights'

If this game is supposed to be realistic and hardcore, as it's advertised on the steam store page, revenge fleets aka camping on a battle location to farm easy kills has to go

In my understanding, hardcore means, if you loose something, you lost it, no way to take revenge using hyperwarp ships

Realistic means, after a battle, a captain would sail / escape to a friendly port to refill supply; not having to deal with in-teleporting reinforcements, aka fallout constitutions. I dont know a single other MMO that works this way.

Us prefering fair fights rather than 5v1 roflstomps has nothing to do with the game mechanic, but with the player's mentality / way of approaching the game.

Even if you get ganked 1v5, so be it, game is supposed to be realistic / hardcore, so if no reinforcement is around (still got 3 min join timer, which is a lot), you're pretty much doomed.

Allowing to take revenge on anything by sort of abusing the way the game works with its two instances massively discourages people to 'create' pvp, but rather wait and chill in port until someone "stupid enough" comes by to deliver pvp, to then camp on his battle pos. and get easy kills.
How dare anyone deliver pvp.

[akd]

The best part is when all the players from the first battle that failed are waiting to gank outside the battle while you clean up.  So you have to fight the same players again, and if you win again, you get no rewards.