Did you have an issue with 5 mins timers? POLL

[Koltes]

Please note, this is not just a poll about your opinion, but the actual experience after patch.

Thank you in advance

Edited June 14, 2017 by koltes

[Hethwill]

The options presented are not of a neutral tone. Can you change them ? Thank you.

Options changed. Post outdated.

[manuva85]

The problem with timers longer than 2 minutes is you stop fighting what you see( you might be fighting someone who was beyond your range of view) and timers debuffs from leaving ports are build to cooperate with 2 min timers.

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, The Red Duke said:

The options presented are not of a neutral tone. Can you change them ? Thank you.

I dont think they need to be changed. Its either they should be the same, increase or decrease. Its a 3 way poll

EDIT:
I have removed any context from the questions. Its plain now, though still 3 ways

Edited June 14, 2017 by koltes

[Sir Texas Sir]

36 minutes ago, manuva85 said:

The problem with timers longer than 2 minutes is you stop fighting what you see( you might be fighting someone who was beyond your range of view) and timers debuffs from leaving ports are build to cooperate with 2 min timers.

In real life war you don't all ways know what is around the corner, over the hill or just on the horizon.  So why should yous see every thing?  I mean we don't have radar or such, but some one might be heading the same path to intercept your last known course and they find you, or they might not.   

When I was in the Navy it wasn't the things we could see we worried about.  It was the things we couldn't see that we feared.  For rightful reason's as I was on a floating target.

[Sureshot]

14 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

In real life war you don't all ways know what is around the corner, over the hill or just on the horizon.  So why should yous see every thing?  I mean we don't have radar or such, but some one might be heading the same path to intercept your last known course and they find you, or they might not.   

When I was in the Navy it wasn't the things we could see we worried about.  It was the things we couldn't see that we feared.  For rightful reason's as I was on a floating target.

Yeah but back then they didn't have teamspeak to tell people there was a battle off the horizon or whatever you might say.

I just love the baiting people with a trader or small ship and then after the tag the enemy sails in just off the horizon or behind an island and ganks them. Great stuff. ;p

Edited June 14, 2017 by SeaHyena

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

18 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

In real life war you don't all ways know what is around the corner, over the hill or just on the horizon.  So why should yous see every thing?  I mean we don't have radar or such, but some one might be heading the same path to intercept your last known course and they find you, or they might not.   

When I was in the Navy it wasn't the things we could see we worried about.  It was the things we couldn't see that we feared.  For rightful reason's as I was on a floating target.

How is the visibility in miles from the masts of a ship?
How much is the average speed of a sailing ship?
Make these considerations.

In aeronautics, situational awareness (SA) is very important. A basic thing for a fighter pilot. If you do not know what's around you is a serious problem. And certainly speeds are higher and visibility (having to see small and fast contacts) is definitely less than a ship ...

I'm for 2 min or even double circle. I need to have SA.
Of course all these considerations are probably unsuitable in a MMO game for clan, full of alts, bonus and ather shits, etc.

Edited June 14, 2017 by JeanJacques de Montpellier

[Sir Texas Sir]

20 minutes ago, JeanJacques de Montpellier said:

How is the visibility in miles from the masts of a ship?
How much is the average speed of a sailing ship?
Make these considerations.

In aeronautics, situational awareness (SA) is very important. A basic thing for a fighter pilot. If you do not know what's around you is a serious problem. And certainly speeds are higher and visibility (having to see small and fast contacts) is definitely less than a ship ...

I'm for 2 min or even double circle. I need to have SA.
Of course all these considerations are probably unsuitable in a MMO game for clan, full of alts, bonus and ather shits, etc.

Just cause you need it doesn't mean your going to get it.    Sounds like you want every thing on your terms and that is not how real fights work out.   You never know what is on that horizon, or around that corner or behind that island.  Is that ship really a trader or is it a Pirate loaded with crew and cannons?   The unknown is part of the hunt and chase.  You never know what might be facing.

[Prater]

On a ship the visibility was quite often 20 miles.  The problem, as has been noted, is that they didn't have radio.  Also, another problem is that OW passes at a different speed than battle.  Most of the time, at the distances we are talking about, the battle would be long over before the enemies who were over the horizon would get there.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Prater

[Koltes]

I would like to remind you all that this is not a poll about your opinion,but opinion that is based on RECENT after patch encounters. If you have to argue please bring recent encounters to the table.

As for inability to see being on the other side of the land, or due to lack of visibility or distance you all forget that sound of cannonade was traveling miles above the water and used to be an indicator of ongoing fights, thus attracts coastal defense of check out what is going on.

[Prater]

Koltes, I've tested both timers to death already, I don't need recent examples.  We've been here already.  All we are in is a giant circle.

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Just cause you need it doesn't mean your going to get it.    Sounds like you want every thing on your terms and that is not how real fights work out.   You never know what is on that horizon, or around that corner or behind that island.  Is that ship really a trader or is it a Pirate loaded with crew and cannons?   The unknown is part of the hunt and chase.  You never know what might be facing.

20 miles at least as Prater says, means if you're still standing, the enemy will reach you in about 2 hours, if you're running away it will take a few days or never (depends who is faster); If you go directly to meet about 30 min. With the use of spyglass (there were people who had the job of scanning the horizon on the ship) you can do ID several miles away. All this to say that in reality (except for rare exceptions) there was time to have a good SA and to see new ships in time.

Prater's right account of the fact that there was no radio made us understand that it was very difficult to communicate between ships of the same fleet / group and then work at great distances between them. This to say that sending a ship as a bait, starting a fight with her and then reaching it with the main of the group was quite difficult if not impossible sometimes. I've read about groups of hunting frigates that sometimes have been separated by going out to visual contact and maybe figthing the enemy alone so.

Returning to the game, since it's what interests us:
5 min translates into a bait and behind the fleet. Start the battle against one enemy, after 5 minutes there are also 20 of them. Obviously this way of playing is quite parallel as a mentality to using alts and other shit. It is funny? I do not like, besides being a crap.
With a lesser time (2 min or double circle) fight only what you saw in OW. It seems more fun.

PS: As I have said several times, these problems come from the OW / battle rooms. Different speeds and also problems with join/ROE (tag) and exit from battles (ganking risk).
If it is for me, I'd be playing in something like the old Sea Trials, with no icons too and spyglass at all. This is my opinion of course.

Edited June 14, 2017 by JeanJacques de Montpellier

[Vernon Merrill]

Basically, the people that actually got out and ACTIVELY look for PvP are doing it wrong...  you just need to wait out your enemy until he gets mored bored than you.  Then HE will have to come to YOUR capital.  Then you can just revenge gank them instead of them doing it to you. 

Just watch some Netflix and periodically check nation chat.  

Edited June 14, 2017 by Vernon Merrill

[Sureshot]

2 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Basically, the people that actually got out and ACTIVELY look for PvP are doing it wrong...  you just need to wait out you're enemy until he gets moredbored than you.  Then HE will have to come to YOUR capital.  Then you can just revenge gank them instead of them doing it to you. 

Just watch some Netflix and periodically check nation chat.  

Haha, this is pure gold 11/10 . ;p 

[Koltes]

17 minutes ago, Prater said:

Koltes, I've tested both timers to death already, I don't need recent examples.  We've been here already.  All we are in is a giant circle.

Then you have not tested them fully. Work of a tester is to test constantly as the game progresses. When patch has come out with a new mechanics and content you cant simply say: nah, its not working merely based on my past huge experience of testing.

[Prater]

Lol.  I have tested it fully.  We had 5 minute timers before for months.  We already had this.  How many times do we have to say that?  We've already tested it.  In fact, we have had 5 minute timers several times already.  What is the popular definition of insanity?  Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.  We've done the same thing over and over again.  We don't need to do it again.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Prater

[Koltes]

1 minute ago, Prater said:

Lol.  I have tested it fully.  We had 5 minute timers before for months.  We already had this.  How many times do we have to say that.  We've already tested it.

I've heard you the first time mate. But did you also test 5 minutes timers WHILE having the following mechanics below ALL COMBINED together?

1. no GPS to know your pinpoint location;
2. no Coordinates to communicate location of the battle to your mates;
3. no Teleports to come close to the battle location if you are on the other side of the map;
4. No ship slinging to instantly bring ships across the map;
5. Lack of gold so people can't afford to buy crap ship in store just to gank someone

Those mechanics removed easy done gank fest and 5 minute timers have not changed that a single bit.
If the enemy has prepared and ganked you they actually spent their time to prepare, to sail, to earn and therefore they earned their right to gank you.

Most of you people are talking about the past, while game evolving with every patch. This patch have changed the game dramatically. Unless you are prepared to use your current today's experiences your arguments based on the past have no grounds. No offence 

[Prater]

We had 5 minutes with no gps, no map  We've done this already.  We still have teleports, and if you are talking about outpost teleports, we did it without those.  Anyway, this is moot, because we are no longer doing 5 minutes, thankfully.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Prater

[Koltes]

Just now, Prater said:

We had 5 minutes with no gps, no map, no teleports.  We've done this already.

Including:
1. no ship slinging;
2. invisibility after battle;
3. current ship setups;
4. current economy;

All these factors plays huge role in how players interact in the OW. There are tons of new mechanics added that have influenced how people get involved in PVP.
I seriously doubt that you had this all back in the day. Its like saying that devs did nothing with the game all this time.

[Prater]

If that is your idea of development, it will take 10 years to do anything.  The fact is, none of the issues you mention except invisibility affect battle join timers, which duh, we had back then.  The fact is, we have done this already.  If you want development to run around in circles and never finish, then lets keep doing the same stuff over and over again.

[Koltes]

6 minutes ago, Prater said:

If that is your idea of development, it will take 10 years to do anything.  The fact is, none of the issues you mention except invisibility affect battle join timers, which duh, we had back then.  The fact is, we have done this already.  If you want development to run around in circles and never finish, then lets keep doing the same stuff over and over again.

its not just join timers we are talking about. Its the ganking "issue" behind them.


Ok lets see how this does "not" affect battle join timers

1. no GPS to know your pinpoint location
When you sail semi together but have your force stretched you simple dont know where exactly you are. Means its pretty easy for the tagger to actually not knowing where the battle is to communicate its location. Does this not affect his mates joining in and ganking? 

2. no Coordinates to communicate location of the battle to your mates
Even if you know where you are you still have to explain this to others. Lots of variables kick in including your ability to explain and your mates ability to understand your message. Means again its very easy to get it wrong and miss the battle all together. Does this not affect his mates joining in and ganking?

3. no Teleports to come close to the battle location if you are on the other side of the map
I'm in Mort. My mate is in La Tortue. Another mate is in Cap-Francais. We all get a call from a trader to come and help him at La Navasse. Please tell me detailed instructions how can we newbs gank this guys and use 5 minutes timer to our advantage. Please do! I want to learn from you guys. I'm serious. Enlighten me! Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Here, I'm all open for suggestions!

4. No ship slinging to instantly bring ships across the map
Even if they have teleported where you are, because its a trading/crafting outpost and there is no ship slinging there is lots more chances that they wont have fighting ship in there, but rather have their trading vessel. Does this means nothing in the gankig issue?

5. Lack of gold so people can't afford to buy crap ship in store just to gank someone
Self explanatory right? Since you cant sling the ship and its too expensive to buy you have to actually physically sail your vessels to all your outposts and leave them there which requires lots of preparation. Gank fest from teleports was only possible because people could teleport to ONE port and all get out of it jumping to the battle instance. It is much more problematic now, especially because you cant afford to buy ships left and right. Does this also have no affect on ganking in your view?

6. Invisibility after battle
Somehow we managed to gank these guys. They see all these people join in and get out of the battle. If you know anything about NA you will get away. I did every single time to date. But hey maybe all these people who came from PVP1 to Global are doing this wrong? Tell me how does this not help players to avoid ganking?

7. Current ship setups
The upgrades are currently OP. Most of the people go with fighting setups and if you hunting solo yours would probably be using the best speed mods. We all know how easy it is to run on Surp right? Well its even easier now. How does this not help you to avoid gankers?

8. Current economy
Before people had so much money they could afford to fill in all dock slots on all their 100 alts. Today you have to actually put your time to be able to afford fighting. This means that most of the time when we called our guys to come and join the hunt (let alone invite to gank someone) the answer was... hmm Im out in the OW doing trading. ETA 2 hours. And that is the answer in pro pvp largest pirate clan on the server. Or they grind PVE marks in missions. Tell me how does this not affect the ganking fest?

I'm sorry @Prater I have much respect for you Sir, but this coming from you?... 

[Prater]

You haven't read anything I have written.

 

1.  We didn't have gps.

2.  We didn't have a map

3.  We didnt have outpost teleport

4.  We didn't have ship slinging.

5.  Money means nothing, because money will only be scarce after wipes, i.e. money will only be scarce very rarely.  So why put a lot of testing into something when it is rare and why keep something that is always present just based on how it performed when it was rare?  In fact, money is not scarce right now.  I know many people who have millions already.  We shouldn't be testing because of money levels, otherwise we should be testing 10 min, 5 min, 2 min, 3 min, 30 sec, 0 sec timers every other week just based on money levels.  Money will be rare very rarely in the game.

6.  makes no sense and isn't what is being talked about.  Invisibility was only taken away once, all other times we have had it.

7.  this is how it has always been.

8.  See #5.  Again, why keep something for how it performs when something is rare when it will always be present and very rarely be rare?

 

We have tested several different battle join timers.  Because of the speed of open world (75x battle time IIRC), battle join timers must be low.  Unless you spawn far away and in the direction you were at when the battle started.  If you want high battle join timers, then Open World speed must be reduced.  The higher the population in game, the worse higher timers will be, especially in high pop areas.  In 5 minutes you can travel over 100 naval action nautical miles (closer to 100 km in real life) on the open world.  It makes no sense to have ships travel that far and join a battle 5 minutes in.  At least with 2 minutes, it is more like 40 instead of 100.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Prater

[Koltes]

55 minutes ago, Prater said:

You haven't read anything I have written.

.......

We have tested several different battle join timers.  Because of the speed of open world (75x battle time IIRC), battle join timers must be low.  Unless you spawn far away and in the direction you were at when the battle started.  If you want high battle join timers, then Open World speed must be reduced.

I have read everything that you have written few times. No need to insult me like that

battle join timers must be low
Only to fit specific mentality. Specifically - want to sail and join battles on my terms and never be interrupted during eating the smaller fish. Even right in the mouth of their capital.
I don't like that. And I have also tested this particular mechanic and dont find this very amusing at all. The ONLY people who benefit from this is the hunters. That's it. How does short join timer helps the other types of players? Specifically the traders and newbs? Please tell me

If you want high battle join timers, then Open World speed must be reduced.
I agree with reduction of OW speed and have already been vocal about it number of times. IMO speed in regions needs to be pretty much the same as in the battle (15-16kn max downwind). Speed in deep waters needs to increase to like double. Since we are not teleporting and not slinging this will help to reduce time sink dramatically.

And you still haven't answered any of my questions at the end of each point.
Every time we ask you people to provide a screenshot and video of you being ganked time after time and show us the issue all we hear back is that you had this issue in the past and you have tested this and that you all know this way too well and blah blah blah. Common man. Dont gimme this crap. You people jump on the timer question like in the first few hours after the patch been released. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by koltes

[Hethwill]

Thank you for making the options plain and without "bias" works much better.

It is 3 minutes after the patch. Casted my vote though.

Reasons are all across the last years posts.

[jodgi]

@Prater I doubt it's any use. Not only does he deliberately and completely disregard 18 months of testing and a metric ton of topics on the timer issue, he also does not see any problem with revenge ganks and re-tagging ad nauseam.