Corvette

[Guest]

Just a small suggestion to add a corvette to the game. The existing two (cerberus and renommee) are nice but considering the fact that most warships in the carribean were either frigates or corvettes it would be nice to see some variants of them. I seem to recall a poll the devs made some time ago to add a ship to the game (as I recall the Ingermanland won) so there could be a model to go for..

 

[mikawa]

+1

[Guest]

As far as I know neither Cerberus nor Renommee are "Corvettes" but classified frigates. "Corvette" wasn't a common term in the Age of Sail. There were classified ships (rank 1-6) and non-classified ships, the Sloops. Just speaking for the British Navy. Maybe "Corvette" in French navy was a common term for a Special type of ship.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Guest

[Tyrdael]

"Corvette" is more of a box you throw unrated, smaller, armed scout vessels in. And yeah, Cerberus and Renommee are light frigates.

 

Edit: but either way, i like ships 5th rate and below, we need to figure out how to make them more attractive to play instead of the usual 1725 cannon-per-broadside-fleet.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Tyrdael

[mikawa]

Corvettes are 6th rates, also called "post ships" in terms of Royal Navy. They had 20 guns, HMS Rose or Camilla for example,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_corvette_and_sloop_classes_of_the_Royal_Navy#18th-century_.281752.E2.80.9399.29_post_ship_classes

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Rose_(1757)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Camilla_(1776)

 

they are not frigates.

 

I would like to see small ships selection growing too.

[admin]

Le Unite - Surprise is a corvette

cerberus and renommee also could be classified as such by the french navy

[Sire Trinkof]

The beautiful rattlesnake also is one ... The best one!

[LeBoiteux]

Of the ingame ships, the Rattlesnake is indeed the closest to the XVIIIth century French definition of a Corvette (3-masted about-20-gun ship).

[Vernon Merrill]

Yes, I consider the Rattlesnake the closest thing to a Corvette in this game....  To me, everything else is just a light frigate..   

[Idle Champion]

The British would use sloop-of-war, noting the vessels rigging as ship-sloop or brig-sloop, for a vessel suitable for a Commander and post ship (always ship, there were no post brigs) for a ship that suited a Captain but was not a frigate. The French and other continental navies described these ships as corvettes - the British only really adopted the term in the 1830s. Unlike 'ship-sloop' and 'brig-sloop', ship-rigged is implied in corvette; a ship-rigged corvette is simply a corvette, a brig-rigged corvette is distinguished as a brig-corvette. The French Bonne Citoyenne-class is corvettes, the French Palinure-class is brig-corvettes. Lightly-armed ships or brigs that are in naval service but aren't set up for fighting don't count as corvettes or sloops of war.

 

Currently, the Cerberus's armament has been tweaked to make it more like a heavy corvette than a frigate, and the Surprise sits on the margin of heavy corvette and frigate. All of the brigs in game are powerful enough to count as brig-rigged sloops-of-war or brig-corvettes, but none of them are French and they wouldn't be labeled as brig-corvettes. Rattlesnake is the corvettiest ship in the game, and is pretty lightly armed.

 

But yes, I would like to see more corvettes in the 50-100 BR range. Bring on the corvettes.

[maturin]

Most of the historical warships that were referred to as corvettes would wipe the floor with Rattlesnake.

 

Towards the Napoleonic period a corvette was a catch-all term for ships left behind by the upward march of cannon calibers.

[LeBoiteux]

One word, two langages, 150 years = ten définitions...

[Hethwill]

French corvette type should be akin to the RN cruiser type comparatively. Suprise, Renomee, mostly cruisers as opposite to the frigate type. Built and rigged to be able to operate on their own for prolonged periods.

 

That's my take on it.

[LeBoiteux]

Let's historical data and specialists (Boudriot) speak :

- during the XVIII-th century and till 1824, a corvette in the French Navy is a small 3-masted ship with 12 to 24 guns (reference is 20) and a length of 50-100 ft. By 1767, Corvettes look like Frigates. The only differences lie in the caliber of their guns (8 for the corvette and 12-pdr for the frigate) and the length of their hull.

 

- in 1824, a new kind of Corvette appears, much bigger and longer with 28 carronades and 4 guns and a length of 42 meters (La "corvette de 32 à batterie couverte")

 

(≠ British Corvettes : the word "corvette" starts to be used in the Royal Navy around 1830 (?) as a catch-all term)

 

That's why the Rattlesnake is the closest thing to a French Corvette in NA (even though she is really small).

And it would be nice to have 1-2 more ships of that kind in NA  .

 

Sources :

http://ancre.fr/en/monographies-en/61-monographie-de-la-creole-corvette-1823.html

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7682-french-corvettes-collection-6th-rates-with-plans/?p=145575

[Guest]

Thanks for the many replies, I was aware of the original polling. My suggestion is more a matter of game balance as the poll suggest most players are focussed on heavy frigates and SoL - fun as they are in PB. However i'm a bit concerned about balance. There's a lot of options for 4th rate frigates and above but I'd like to see one or two more options in the 5th rate segment and below (to put it in NA terms).

[LeBoiteux]

Le Unite - Surprise is a corvette

cerberus and renommee also could be classified as such by the french navy

 

A French corvette is a 3-masted sloop-of-war that never had more than 24 guns on her gundeck (and none on her quarterdeck when there was one) during our period (that's why, of all ingame ships, the small Rattlesnake is for the moment the closest to the XVIIIth century French definition).

 

About l'Unité : French built her in 1793 as a Corvette with 24 guns firing 8-pdrs, all on her gundeck, no armed quarterdeck of course (Boudriot, La Créole, p. 37). British 38-gun Surprise in game with her adding 14 guns on her quarterdeck wouldn't be a Corvette anymore but a frigate to Frenchmen.

See plan with British refit : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7078-blue-prints-of-ships-already-in-game/

 

About the Cerberus : with her current 26 guns, she is a gap filler in game. IRL she was a 28-gun frigate with 24 guns on her gundeck and 4 on her quaterdeck. So she's characteristic of mid-18th century 8-pdr French Frigates (see Boudriot, History of the French frigates, p. 88). She's not a Corvette. Btw, there are also French 8-pdr frigates with 26 guns on their gundeck as the current Cerberus in game.

 

About the Cerberus being a gap filler, to fill the gap between 20 and 28 guns :

(1) you could find mid-18th century French 8-pdr frigates with 24 or 26 guns (see Boudriot, History of the French frigates, p. 88).

(2) if ingame Surprise = 1793 French L'Unité, you could also simply use your 3D model of the Surprise, remove the 14 guns on her quarterdeck, remove possible British transformations of her quaterdeck and forecastle and call her l'Unité.

(3) you could use the plan of a 1827 24-gun corvette  (plans we have, e.g. La Créole, p. 41) but with 9-pdr of course. 

 

About the Renommée : with her 30 guns and armed QD, she's definitely a 8-pdr frigate, not a Corvette (see Boudriot, History of the French frigates).

 

If you want the feeling of sailing a French Corvette, implement a 20-gun Corvette firing 6-pdrs or 9-pdrs.

La diligente (1801) is the best choice : she was fast, no quaterdeck/forecastle. Her plan we still have was a success as it was used through the 1st half of the 19th century as a Corvette aviso. See La Créole, p. 42 and http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7682-french-corvettes-collection-6th-rates-with-plans/?p=153304

[maturin]

About the Renommée: with her 30 guns and armed QD, she's definitely a 12-pdr frigate, not a Corvette

 

Renommee mounts 9-pounders both in the game and in reality.

 

 

But armament isn't important. Renommee is one of the first frigates, that inspired the ships that came later.

 

Only at the end of the century would a ship of her armament possibly be called a corvette.

[Prater]

I like the idea of the French version of the Surprise, L'Unite, with less armament.  Give it a French texture/color scheme and a different stern.  Maybe modify the model a little if possible, like LeBoiteux suggests.  That is, if it isnt too much work.

[LeBoiteux]

Renommee mounts 9-pounders both in the game and in reality.

 Thx and sorry, my mistake : beside the 1744 8-pdr Renommée, Boudriot mentions a 1767 12-pdr Renommée. Corrected.

 

But armament isn't important. Renommee is one of the first frigates, that inspired the ships that came later.

Only at the end of the century would a ship of her armament possibly be called a corvette.

I guess you mean that French abandoned 9-pdr armament on frigates at the moment of the US revolutionary War and gave it to Corvettes, not that any c. 1800 Corvette ever carried as many guns as 30. Max = 24 guns.

 

First 32-gun Corvettes don't show up before 1827 firing caronades of 30-pdrs.

[LeBoiteux]

I like the idea of the French version of the Surprise, L'Unite, with less armament.  Give it a French texture/color scheme and a different stern.  Maybe modify the model a little if possible, like LeBoiteux suggests.  That is, if it isnt too much work.

 

Indeed, it would be an easy way to model a 24-gun corvette (if ingame Surprise = 1793 24-gun Corvette Unité).

That said, Boudriot writes that 1793-1794 24-gun Corvettes weren't very appreciated. And only a few were built. Boudriot only lists 5 of them.

[akd]

Plans for L'Unité "as when taken" in 1796, before conversion to a British frigate:

 

edit: removed, bad cross-reference of files in RMG archives.  See instead plans for Unité sistership Tourterelle below.

[LeBoiteux]

So when I argue that L'Unite was a corvette you demand proof before you will accept that information... yet here you are stating exactly that for the 1793 L'Unite...

 

That's trolling. I see you decided to be dishonest with me and you use all rhetorical means. So that's the last time I reply to you till you don't change your mind.

 

First, 24-gun 1793 French Unité is indeed a corvette. I've never said anything else.

 

Second, I didn't demand proof about that. I demanded proof that French men called XVIIIth century 28-gun 9-pdr ships (24 guns + 4 guns on an armed QD) "Corvettes". I'm still waiting for that proof as those ships were described as Frigates on French plans. I've already given you all necessary references : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15800-french-frigates-book-research/?p=296697

 

although, as was common (60%+) with most other corvette classes she was being used with an armed quarterdeck within 2 years of her introduction (taken with 24 8livre and 8 4livre in April 1796, subsequently altered in RN service to 24 32lb carronade, 10 18lb carronade and 2 4lb gun - never fitted as a 9lb frigate - though her admiralty letters indicate the unimplemented plan for 24 9lb and 10 4lb guns, plus 6 12lb carronades.

In the French Navy ? Common ? And French navy still called them Corvettes ? Give me the proof of those facts. I'm not like you : I want to learn. And I'm ready to agree with you if you prove what you say. Till then I will believe a renown expert : Boudriot.

 

Experiments have been made with Corvettes such as with those c. 1793 24-gun corvettes. These one are said to be unappreciated. And few were built. Boudriot only lists 5 of them. The only c. 1800 corvettes that really worked were 20-gun ones.

 

My last reply to you.

[LeBoiteux]

Plans for L'Unité "as when taken" in 1796, before conversion to a British frigate:

Thx so much. I didn't know that plan existed. So great !

 

Now let's look at the transformations.

[maturin]

Plans for L'Unité "as when taken" in 1796, before conversion to a British frigate:

 

 

 

 

AKD, do you have the right plans there?

 

The body plan looks totally different (way more tumblehome, two-turn bilge) from the plans for the refit in British service. Same with the beakhead, gripe and stem, and there are fewer gunports.

 

Could this be the Gracieuse, which the Brits renamed Unite?

 

http://www.thedearsurprise.com/wp-content/gallery/ltigthms-surpriseltigt/padsurprise09.jpg

 

 

The French L'Unite was listed as carrying 8 quarterdeck guns.

[LeBoiteux]

1) Measurement of a 1793 24-gun corvette (Boudriot, La Créole, p. 36) : 117,9 x 29,2 x 14,4 ; 656 tx.
 Could someone compare those data (in pieds du roi ?) with those (in ft ?) of HMS Surprise :

http://www.thedearsurprise.com/wp-content/gallery/ltigthms-surpriseltigt/padsurprise09.jpg

 

2) 

The French L'Unite was listed as carrying 8 quarterdeck guns.

Couldn't this French Unité that has been refitted in HMS Surprise (that is now in NA) be a 30+ gun privateer Frigate with no link with the 1793 24-gun corvette ?