Should the weather cause open world damage

[Captain Comery]

We currently get storms in battle but should we se them damage our ships in the open world to make the game more authentic?

I say that we should but I would like other views.

[Ftmch]

Not sure how it works at the moment, but I'd love to see "storm events" where if you get caught in a storm you need to sail in it manually for a few minutes and survive until you can go back out into the open world again. Maybe get the possibily to keep sailing longer in the storm and get a little bit of xp or something from it (but just a little bit).

[ObiQuiet]

It's one factor that would make the ow more strategic and tactical and less like going shopping.

I would like to see bad weather as an accelerator of gradual wear and tear. I think some map areas could be known for bad weather, affecting the flow of commerce and ones ability to hold the area for long periods of time.

[SneakyTurtle]

Seeing the storms from a distance is awesome sight.  I tip my hat to the developers on how real they look, both inside and outside of these storms. 

 

As to navigating thru the storms, I would also like to see some damage on the ships if you venture to close to the middle.

 

I have found that if you catch a ship in the middle of a storm and go into the battle arena, you go back to clear skies and calm water.  Storm battles would be challenge to the fight.  With ever changing sea heights, poor visibilities, rain, and lighting the challenge may be to great to hit your target.  Sinking from storm damage would be a more real possibility than getting hit by the opponents.  

 

Even night battles would look awesome and be fun to have.

[Hieronymous Alloy]

I mean, heck, Bermuda Triangle

 

I wish the old Sea Trials storm combat map would come back, it was awesome. Only problem with it in Sea Trials was it was in too heavy rotation.

[Cornholio]

Storms could do damage to the ship, lost crew and some cargo.

[Calico Jack]

Total y agree we should have damage if we do not sail according to weather conditons

[Henrik]

Agreed!

[maturin]

This is a reeeeeeally complicated topic.

For the barebones implementation, you would want storms to cause damage on sail settings above Slow, Battle, or Dead Slow, depending on distance from the center.

At the same time, however, the storm would need to provide speed bonuses for those lower sail settings. A large ship would travel about 30-50% as fast to windward under reduced sail in rough weather, with very little speed penalty downwind. Smaller vessels would suffer more, especially closehauled which would in the worst conditions be impossible for them, causing damage.

[DeRuyter]

This is a reeeeeeally complicated topic.

For the barebones implementation, you would want storms to cause damage on sail settings above Slow, Battle, or Dead Slow, depending on distance from the center.

At the same time, however, the storm would need to provide speed bonuses for those lower sail settings. A large ship would travel about 30-50% as fast to windward under reduced sail in rough weather, with very little speed penalty downwind. Smaller vessels would suffer more, especially closehauled which would in the worst conditions be impossible for them, causing damage.

This ^^! I would add the effect rough seas would have on lower gundecks on SoL. Can't recall if this was added in ST storm battles, but should be included.

I would like to see weather effects in OW and battles. As Maturin notes damage would not be automatic but dependent on the sails you have set. Also this provides an opportunity for the large ship to catch a smaller one that is usually more weatherly.

[Macjimm]

This is a reeeeeeally complicated topic.

For the barebones implementation, you would want storms to cause damage on sail settings above Slow, Battle, or Dead Slow, depending on distance from the center.

At the same time, however, the storm would need to provide speed bonuses for those lower sail settings. A large ship would travel about 30-50% as fast to windward under reduced sail in rough weather, with very little speed penalty downwind. Smaller vessels would suffer more, especially closehauled which would in the worst conditions be impossible for them, causing damage.

Maturin. Your posts are very enjoyable and interesting. I would love to hear your elaborations on this topic.

I would imagine that storms would be a much greater threat to seafarers than attacks from other ships. Depending on where you chose to sail. I would love to see some hazardous areas of the map where there is an increased chance of very violent storms. Gales or hurricanes that could damage or destroy a sturdy ship unless it is sailed skillfully. The type of ship, sail settings, ballast and securing cargo would have an influence on the ships potential to survive. I've heard tales of a cannon breaking free during a big blow and causing horrendous damage as it crashed about inside the decks. Crews going days without hot food because the stoves were too dangerous if lit. Injuries were common during extreme weather.

Traders could risk traveling through areas with a high potential for foul weather and gain from reduced travel time between specific ports that boast high profits from the resource sales.

[Henrik]

Hopefully this will be implemented at some point!

About an hour ago i gave chase uhm i mean i sailed together with Pugwash trying to get our bearings in a most violent storm. The visibility was horrendous to say the least but it was great fun and very exiting indeed! It actually felt dangerous so here's hoping that damage because of weather will be implemented in the game!

[GrapeShot]

Do we really want to micromanage sailing through a storm?

As for damage, what about the most extreme form of damage - ship loss? Do any of you really want that?

I think you just have storms do what they originally did in the OW; slow boats down to a crawl so captains sail around them to avoid them.

[maturin]

Do we really want to micromanage sailing through a storm?

As for damage, what about the most extreme form of damage - ship loss? Do any of you really want that?

I think you just have storms do what they originally did in the OW; slow boats down to a crawl so captains sail around them to avoid them.

I haven't heard any proposals that could remotely be described as micromanaging. Unless a grand total of one keystroke and a course setting fit your definition.

 

Current storm behavior is unacceptable because it is both unrealistic and unfun. No choices, knowledge or skill is required, and the qualities of your ship are irrelevant. There is no risk and reward. It is just a sadistic time tax, guaranteed to be a quintessentially dull experience after your first few storms.

[Henrik]

Engaging the enemy in a storm, would love that and yes storms should matter i believe!

[droptuned]

Do we really want to micromanage sailing through a storm?

As for damage, what about the most extreme form of damage - ship loss? Do any of you really want that?

I think you just have storms do what they originally did in the OW; slow boats down to a crawl so captains sail around them to avoid them.

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily consider it micromanaging. I think at the most just having it affect visibility and OW speeds is enough. However, put into an instance having not just rougher seas but also limited visibility combined with a need to manage the rapidly changing wind/potential for rogue waves to cause you to take on water would add an element.

 

 

The real question I believe would be the frequency and impact of the events. Rare enough to be noteworthy but frequent enough to always be a consideration.

 

 

Another side note would be the tactics involved in needing to have lower decks closed, and how it can change the tide of a battle.

[maturin]

 

Maturin. Your posts are very enjoyable and interesting. I would love to hear your elaborations on this topic.

Sailing a square rigger in a storm involves a huge variety of possible scenarios, none of which I have experienced, and very few of which could be easily represented in a videogame. But I can share the reasoning behind my suggestions.

 

First of all, large and confused waves are generally more dangerous than high winds. There is almost no force of wind strong enough to seriously threaten a ship that has an hour or so to prepare. The trick is that you have to harness the wind somehow, to keep your ship from being overwhelmed by heavy seas. You could furl all your sails and lower the topgallant or even topmasts and be quite secure from any squall. But in a real storm, that also means that your ship will be out of control, and will tend to swing broadside to the wind, where you will roll deep into the troughs of the waves, as they break over the ship's waist one after the other. Eventually you will have more water pouring onto the deck than can run out through the scuppers, reducing your stability and (for smaller vessels) buoyancy to critical levels.

 

So basically you have to keep some canvas set, just enough to make the rudder effective. Even if you can set plenty of sail, you want to moderate your speed in heavy seas because hollow wooden shells are not very good at riding rollercoasters. You don't want to go slamming into oncoming seas at 10 knots (the waves themselves could be going 30 mph, remember), and have your bow plunging twenty feet down into the trough. Even if the forward half of the ship doesn't end up underwater, there's no better way to stress the ship's timbers, spring leaks, wash away crew, lines and boats, break the jibboom, spritsail yard, bowsprit or entire masts.

 

Therefore, you set a few tough sails (perhaps a close-reefed maintopsail, perhaps some storm staysails or the reefed mizzen sail, depending on strength of wind and the personality of the vessel) and set a close-hauled course. This operation is called 'lying to,' and the objective is to angle the bow into the waves, and in the roughest part of any storm, the seas will be coming from the same general direction as the wind (In the game this isn't the case, which complicates everything). Then you will forge slowly to windward, with the bow rising as gently as possible to each oncoming wave, with the wind heeling you over and moderating the severity of the ship's rolling. This prevents you from driven ashore by the storm. Just remember not to loose speed, or you might end up surfing backwards down the faces of the waves, likely snapping the rudder off. And if your sails come aback, you risk losing your masts or even sailing the stern under.

 

In the very worst conditions, lying to becomes impossible. This happens a lot sooner for smaller vessels, as the seas will becalm their sail lower sails and break more easily onto their exposed decks. At that point, the only option is to put your ship before the wind and 'scud' to leeward. Oftentimes you sail quite fast without any sail set at all, thorough the windage of the masts and bare spars. That means the rudder has authority, and the helmsman must constant battle to take each wave directly on the stern. The seas will try to bury the bow in the troughs or even lift the rudder from the water, both of which will cause the ship to yaw wildly, 'broaching to' to turn broadside to the waves. This must be avoided at all costs, lest the seas overwhelm the ship as described earlier. In addition, fore-and-aft rigged vessels are not well-equipped for scudding before the wind, unless the wind is strong enough to provide them with steerage way under bare poles.

 

 

Back on the subject of the game, here is how we simplify things:

If the game's storms are meant to threaten a ship's survival, then to avoid damage there are two strategies:

1. Sail closehauled at Dead Slow
2. Sail dead downwind at Dead Slow, but with the same speed you would have at Half

The smaller the ship, the sooner Option 1 goes away (based on distance from the storm's center).

 

If the storms represent more garden variety rough weather, then they are nothing more than an excuse to get the best performance out of your ship. High winds and rough seas will shake up the balance of vessel performance, making certain frigates excel above others, giving a boost to the largest ships and slowing down the likes of Lynx and Mercury.

[Macjimm]

Elaboration ...

 

Thanks Sir,

your attention to detail is appreciated.  I've experienced the advantage of breaching a wave while close hauled and the danger of having a wave overtake the stern when running ... on a very small scale.  I agree that this would be very difficult to replicate in game.  

 

If I remember correctly (in game) it seemed that the wind and wave direction were often in conflict.  I suppose that happens (in RL) but I'm used to the wind driving the waves not opposing them, but I suppose it depends on momentum of the sea and prevailing currents.  

 

Do you think that combat could take place in extremely severe storms like those in the south Atlantic?  Or would it simply be too dangerous to try to manage/move a cannon with the ship pitching so violently.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Macjimm

[maturin]

If I remember correctly it seemed that the wind and wave direction were often in conflict.  I suppose that happens but I'm used to the wind driving the waves not opposing them, but I suppose it depends on momentum of the sea and prevailing currents.  

 

In Sea Trials battle instances the wind would rotate gradually over the course of the battle, meaning that eventually the wind would blow in the exact opposite direction as the waves. Not very likely unless you are dealing with lighter winds in a new weather pattern while the 'old sea' is still running high. And certainly you could have confused cross-seas, which would be much more dangerous than the size of individual waves would suggest.

 

 

Do you think that combat could take place in extremely severe storms like those in the south Atlantic?  Or would it simply be too dangerous to try to manage/move a cannon with the ship pitching so violently.

If you're reduced to either lying to or scudding downwind, there is no way you can fight.

 

But according to the author of this paper (which is unfortunately hidden behind an absurd paywall), the Battle of Quiberon Bay was fought in a 'full gale.' That is Beaufort Force 8, with sustained winds around 35 knots. In such conditions, the ships involved would have been restricted to a treble or close-reefed topsails courses. Given that they were in a bay, the seas would have been steep and perhaps confused, but likely not so large.

 

I don't imagine the likes of Lynx being able to fight in these conditions, though. It would be about time to lie to, rather than try to sail upwind. A gaff rig is not much fun at all sailing before the wind in those conditions either.

[NorthernWolves]

I think there is a happy medium that will appease the realism crowd (of which I am a proud paladin of) and the 'I can't be bothered with age of sail things' crowd. 

 

Closed lower decks and sail damage for putting up too much canvas for conditions and that can only be repaired in a calm with a OW repair would be a simple start.

 

I'd like to see different storm intensities, but I would be happy if the above were implemented.

 

I'd also love to see intermittent rain showers without the dark storm clouds, anyone who has been to the Caribbean and Gulf knows what I'm talking about.

[Macjimm]

...meaning that eventually the wind would blow in the exact opposite direction as the waves. Not very likely unless you are dealing with lighter winds in a new weather pattern while the 'old sea' is still running high. And certainly you could have confused cross-seas, which would be much more dangerous than the size of individual waves would suggest.

You have a way with words sir.

I have a limited understanding but wonder if the condition described might occur at the capes of the Southern Hemispheres and result in a tempest of environmental violence. Huge seas with entire ocean currents smashing headlong into powerful opposing winds.

[Sharprunner]

I would also like to see damage in storms and choose to slow down your ship in storms for les damage or no damage  and close lower gun decks in heavy storms and lower sail settings in battle that my also implement a taktekkel element to the game

hiding fleet movement in a storms

a tacking faster fleets in a storm !

smaller ships cant do battle in heavy storms , trader ships can hide in storms !

[Loukhaashj]

Yes! makes it more realistic.

 

But if i can suggest, ships of that time where abble to lower their masts so it would be lesser affected by bad weather or during battle.

So maybe the option to see if there is a storm comming so you can change your course in time or prepare yourself, crew and ship if you cannot avoid it.

 

What fleets also did was to tigh several ships together during storms so they had greather chance that their ships would not turn over and sank

[Loukhaashj]

Also forgot to say, i think the dammege to the ships should be greather closer to the shore instead of in the open sea!.

Because the chance is greather that the heavy winds and big waves would smash the ships against the rocks or reefs close to land.

Lets not forget that many ships perished that way maybe more than during storms in the open sea.

[Blackjack Morgan]

If storms end up causing damage to your ship why would you not just log out till it passed? To me storms look pretty cool and present enough challenges already without adding damage to the ship. We have so many things in game that allow for long periods of going afk such as long distance sailing I'm not sure we want to encourage another reason to log out.