Historical suggestions, for the betterment of all?

[Pagan Pete]

Speaking out of character for a moment….

 

 

Iv'e read a large number of historical books on the golden age of piracy, and the factors underlying it (geography, economics, politics, societal and class issues… etc...) 

 

Two things are most in need of correcting according to the many historical references I've read;

1. The worlds navies or the world were loathe the send navy ships out to catch pyrates, due to the almost constant state of war between nations during the is period. It was both cost prohibitive and tactically disadvantageous to keep Navy ships on station to protect trade.
2. Pyrates preferred to keep to small, swift vessels that could overtake prey & outrun the few naval vessels sent after them.

 

In suggestions are;

• Pyrates should not get ships larger than Frigates.
• Pyrates should be able to modify their ships somewhat (according to their crafting skill) to add additional guns (Historically accurate), carry larger crews (historically accurate), or make the ship faster by making the deck flush (Historically accurate). 
• Pyrates should get a "False Flag" option on a cool down timer. <<<Edit, because I forgot.
• And; no one should not get reinforcement options because they did not exist. (This may require tweaking to sort out any potential abuses if BR, but i think a change to the BR system would be a better solution)
• All Fleets should be limited to ONE (1) A.I. consort vessel. (To enhance security, without de-personalizing the game.)
• An economic factor should come into play, to motivate nations to suppress piracy when too many trade ships from that nation are taken.

Yarrr, and a mug o rum [_]P

Pagan Pete

Edited November 24, 2015 by Pagan Pete

[OlavDeng2]

Should have more options, as i agree with some points and disagree with others, like max ship size, i disagree with. Modifying of ships,

 

it did happen historically but i think too complicated to implement into the game

 

I agree with the reinforcements but we have no better system currently

 

i think 2 ships is fine

 

that factor will come in as the economy is expanded upon.

[maturin]

 

Pyrates should not get ships larger than Frigates.

 

What, no one's going to come out and accuse Pagan Pete of being a pirate hater who wants to force everyone to play a national?

 

 

Man, I should have changed my avatar to the jolly roger every time I posted about that.

[NorthernWolves]

In suggestions are;

• Pyrates should not get ships larger than Frigates.
• Pyrates should be able to modify their ships somewhat (according to their crafting skill) to add additional guns (Historically accurate), carry larger crews (historically accurate), or make the ship faster by making the deck flush (Historically accurate). 

 

Yeah mega honesty points there Pete. Can you share some with me? I still get accused of being a nationalistic American that wants the Constitution to be like the Star Trek Constitution even though I'm over here screaming that Live Oak should be 10x more expensive in labor and gold and only found where it was actually found

 

Currently doesn't the Pirate Frigate get a boarding bonus built in?

[Pagan Pete]

It does, buy its not craft able yet.

[jodgi]

I still get accused of being a nationalistic American that wants the Constitution to be like the Star Trek Constitution even though I'm over here screaming that Live Oak should be 10x more expensive in labor and gold and only found where it was actually found

Play the martyr card all you like. It is as true as the effectiveness of eco balancing.

Forgive me for trying to contribute to the balancing discussion detached from wood types, history, Nelson or Jack Aubrey.

[NorthernWolves]

Play the martyr card all you like. It is as true as the effectiveness of eco balancing.

 

That doesn't even make any sense. 

[NorthernWolves]

Forgive me for trying to contribute to the balancing discussion detached from wood types, history, Nelson or Jack Aubrey.

 

Nope, it's this gamer-meta rubbish that will bring the game down to the level of world of tanks. 

 

This game doesn't need separate PVE and PVP servers, what it needs is an arcade server and a sim server, like War Thunder, you guys can have your bubblegum tiers and hailing with click, and we can have the age of sail. 

[OlavDeng2]

Nope, it's this gamer-meta rubbish that will bring the game down to the level of world of tanks. 

 

This game doesn't need separate PVE and PVP servers, what it needs is an arcade server and a sim server, like War Thunder, you guys can have your bubblegum tiers and hailing with click, and we can have the age of sail. 

i personally disagree, we should have a pve and pvp server, all as historically accurate as possible

 

 

could i also say, eco balancing only goes so far if a ship is OP, if it is OP people will spend hours on hours and real money to get a ship to destroy everything, eco balancing only works to a certain extent.

 

 

edit: to expand on the pve/pvp server, not every one wants to play pvp, having an arcade and a sim server does not solve this what so ever. If anything, it will split the community more as we will have to have arcade pve, arcade pvp, sim pve, sim pvp which i dont think is doable untill we are at thousands of people online at a time.

Edited November 23, 2015 by OlavDeng2

[maturin]

Play the martyr card all you like. It is as true as the effectiveness of eco balancing.

 

Since the elephant in the room is Constitution, I should point out that she doesn't need to be be eco-balanced. She needs to have the big fat eco-subsidies cut, since that ship is like three times cheaper than she was historically.

[William the Drake]

Woo, another Pirate discussion? These just keep popping up don't they? Well I guess I shouldn't complain that people like talking about pirates  For future reference, I believe this is the topic that contains most of the common arguments (and I will no doubt be referencing it here) : Pirates...

 

 

• Pyrates should not get ships larger than Frigates.

 

 

The hard ship restriction for pirates has probably garnered the most controversy of any of the pirate themed arguments. I've said it before and I'll nay it again: No class-based hard ship restrictions, even for pirates.

However, allow me to elaborate: pirates should be allowed to sail [basically] any ship they wish, however there should be a number of perks offered for sailing smaller vessels for pirates and drawbacks to sailing larger ships to encourage pirates to stuck to small vessels. There have been a number of suggestions on how to go about this; most have been about having upkeep for larger ships being multiplied to the point where using the ship is no longer practical. I believe it was Captain Darby and Maturin that were the first to suggest this.

 

 

• Pyrates should be able to modify their ships somewhat (according to their crafting skill) to add additional guns (Historically accurate), carry larger crews (historically accurate), or make the ship faster by making the deck flush (Historically accurate). 

 

I can definitely get behind this idea. And for the most part it is accurate However, the ability to drastically modify one's ship shouldn't be limited to pirates: Variants and the Modular Ship. Pirates should get their own variant that focuses on speed, maneuverability, and cannon number (NOT firepower/poundage), while sacrificing durability/strength.

 

 

• An economic factor should come into play, to motivate nations to suppress piracy when too many trade ships from that nation are taken

 

One of my biggest arguments about pirates is that they should have minimal economy capabilities; pirates should act [almost] solely as a parasite on the world economy. Any incentive for nationals to suppress piracy, economically speaking, should be the simple fact that pirates won't be interrupting trade: (from An Approach to Piracy)

 

The Pirate "Economy"- Much is up in the air as to what the in-game economy will look like. But regardless, I believe that Pirates should have a minimalist approach to the overall economy as far as direct supply. Should pirates be allowed to have a plot of land to farm some sugar here and there? Sure. Should they be able to prop up a (single) ramshackle rum distillery (which produces a paltry amount of rum)? Eh, ok. Could they even sell their rum (No! Not the Rum!) to shady/desperate traders or smugglers for a spot of coin? Absolutely. Should they be able to corner the rum market in their region? No. In my opinion these things  should only be a secondary option to a pirates income.

The pirates main place in the overall game economy should be to simply be as a parasite on said economy; "Take what ye can and give nothin' back".. or, you know, sell it back for some gold (sell-back price will depend on where and who you can safely sell it to).

But in short, Pirates should not be trying to compete with trade companies to corner any markets.

[jodgi]

Pirate balance, connie balance, eco balance... It's all connected in the end and serves to make this game playable for all participants. It's easy for me because whatever bubblegum stuff this game ends up having, I won't mind because I have no feelings invested in anything historical.

Historical stuff really matters to some of you and you contribute invaluably to various discussions. I can tell you are passionate about this, it is easily observed by the way some of you lash out at me, and others, when we counter-weigh certain issues. You can have a go at me whenever you feel like it, I'll be a container. We are better off having such personal resources hanging around here, It's good you're emotional about it; It just means you care.

---

About limiting the pirate role and making pirate gameplay hard:

Consider the recruitment potential the pirate role has, we've already seen it. Most people won't mind a bit of hard-mode, but if we start to put too many limitations on the pirate players they might get frustrated. Sure we can carefully guide some Jack Sparrow romantics into a more historical understanding of the pirate, but I'm worried about locking them out of the Naval Action end-game content.

[Prater]

I've been on both sides of this debate and can see both sides and agree with both.  I am all for limiting pirates as long as nations are limited as well in some way or pirates get special gameplay.  If they are restricted then their ports have to be protected from captures.  Perhaps pirates are restricted to capturing/losing shallow water ports and their deep water ports are immune to capture?

 

There are two arguments when looking at the historical viewpoint really.  One is that pirates didn't have the manpower to crew these large vessels.  That doesn't exactly line up with the argument that some nations did not have these large vessels.  Just because they did not have them doesn't mean they couldn't have had them or be able to crew them they just chose not to, for budget reasons or the idea they did not need them.  So do we restrict that choice to the historical one or let players make the choice themselves?  And should we make sol crafting a player item or a national item, where the players of the nation craft sols but individual players can't?

 

 

Let's take the US.  If we restrict pirates, we might want to restrict nations.  The US should perhaps be restricted to the Victory and Ocean or other 100-114ish gun ships, only because the Pennsylvania was laid down in 1821 but not completed until 1837.  Otherwise, the largest US ships were 90 guns.  However, the US did have the resources and did have the manpower to crew large vessels, but mostly did not have them for political and strategic reasons (the strategic reason being the thought that they will just fall into British hands).  If we do restrict nations based upon what ships and the amount they can build/crew, we need to balance resources historically as well or give them other advantages, otherwise a few nations will have the most advantage.

 

This is just one example.  The Santisima would then be restricted to Spanish players.  Perhaps we need a 120 gunner to account for the nations that did have that large of a 1st rate but not as large as the Santisima, so the British and French (and any other nations that had 120 gunners) would then get a special 120 gun.

 

So what is the solution?  Are pirates restricted on crew sizes, but get certain advantages (can't lose or take deep water ports)?  Do we also start to limit nationals as well?  I am all for pirates being restricted if we have at least one of what I mentioned: nationals are restricted as well in some manner, or pirates get certain other advantages.

[Kaos]

So pirates was supposed to be hard mode but right now it's just another nation with ''teamkill'' ability and edgy flag. Let's add some salt and test permadeath for pirates upon capture since we are all about history here?

[maturin]

If it were up to me, pirates would have permadeath, coupled with ultra-fast progression.

 

Either that, or progression based purely on big gold hauls and victories over higher-BR vessels. They shouldn't have to worry about XP and such.

[NorthernWolves]

Pirate balance, connie balance, eco balance... It's all connected in the end and serves to make this game playable for all participants. It's easy for me because whatever bubblegum stuff this game ends up having, I won't mind because I have no feelings invested in anything historical.

 

At least you're honest Jodgi. You bring a lot to the community, it's nothing personal, I promise.

 

Just remember that for a lot of us who have played every shitty age of sail game for the last 20 years, spent our youths reading silly one-off age of sail adventure comics in the late 70's and early 80s, read every crappy adolescent age of sail action novel and then progressed to reading every historical tome we could find.

 

And to finally be on the cusp of a game we never though anyone would make... 

Well to hear rational, logical, game improving appeals to history (history being the only reason we are here with this game), get shot down by people who admittedly don't care about such things, is a little bit maddening. Just a little.

 

The strawman of 'we want unbalance' needs to be dropped. 

 

Anyway, pirates, be careful what you wish for, you could quickly see yourselves having history applied to you while it is not to others. You are going to need 74's and 100 guns as long as every trader bob can build one in 3 weeks of play and has no upkeep to stop him fro sailing it 24/7.

 

There are ways to sort that all out and have the game more historical, but you will forever be up against the guy who wants to only play in his Santisima, doesn't care about history or the age of sail, he just is here because he can have the biggest ship with the most guns with little effort.

 

That'll have to be addressed eventually.

[jodgi]

And to finally be on the cusp of a game we never though anyone would make...

I feel ya. I use planes to understand where you're coming from, I would be you if this was planes. A bit backwards, because Aces High still exist and I have all but left it. Mainly because it's a ghost town at EU hours and I'm not interested in drilling holes in the virtual air looking proper fights I remember from the pre free-to-play blessing/curse time.

Well to hear rational, logical, game improving appeals to history (history being the only reason we are here with this game), get shot down by people who admittedly don't care about such things, is a little bit maddening. Just a little.

 

The strawman of 'we want unbalance' needs to be dropped.

I'm here because Naval Action is a glorious game that looks like it'll end up fairly skill based even if the triangle of firepower/protection/speed makes it kinda grind to win. We don't shoot you down because we want to shit on your historical dedication and motivation. But I suspect you can't, or choose not to, see how bad a super connie would affect the current general balance and gameplay.

Let's say the super connie was practically only available to the US faction because of live oak availability. The Rakers, and others in short order, would reroll to US leaving the faction balance in a mess. Doran made a comment to this effect ages ago, when it was suggested the connie should be US exclusive. Right now the ship line-up can't handle a super connie and no amount of eco balancing can fix it. The long term hope, for you guys, is that when other crazy OP fast ships (razee) are added and Naval Action flips that particular page, your connie may very well work as a meh ship like the trinco is now. I've seen it happen in both Aces High (Spit16) and World of Tanks (Tier 10 medium tanks). No big deal; the old best pixels (Maus/Spit9) take a step back for the new pixels, and the game changes.

I've seen posts where the Rakers are accused of wanting the old trinco back, the disappointing truth is that we don't care what the FOTM ship is, we don't care which particular pixels we sail. Most of us want to stay in fast-ish ships and I personally will only sail the big ones if being forced or grinding for rank. But if SOL's is all that matters, so be it. Heck, I'd like to derp around in a Surp for my own entertainment, but the game tells me it's not worth it. Since I'm pixel agnostic I do something else for my rank grinding/competitive needs.

The Rakers want your super connie every bit as much as you do, I hope the above helps in explaining why we fight the very idea.

---

Being pirates. We loved being pirates, we practiced and had fun fighting each other. Most were happy with us being busy playing with ourselves (heh), I only saw one single person commenting that he missed our disruptive presence (bless his heart). After the eco/crafting patch rats were out of the question. Balance is a delicate matter.

[NorthernWolves]

But I suspect you can't, or choose not to, see how bad a super connie would affect the current general balance and gameplay.

 

Right now the ship line-up can't handle a super connie and no amount of eco balancing can fix it. 

 

Ah the super connie strawman rears it's head. That strawman is easy to attack, so it gets repeated. Yawn.

 

So out of all the ships in the game, you mean to tell me that the only one that has to be speed nerfed and HP nerfed for 'balance' is the Constitution? I've never suggested that only the US faction gets the Constitution, that would mean we'd have no 74s.

 

74>Constitution with equal captains.

 

I made a spreadsheet that shows how the Constitution currently has 3.3 hit points per Tons Burthen, while the Bellona and above get 6.1 per Tons Burthen and higher; and Constitution gets 1.6 hit points per freeboard foot and the others get 2.6 and higher... and I"M ASKING FOR A SUPER CONSTITUTION? Just stop with that. It's ridiculous. And dishonest.

 

That's like in your plane game if the only fighter that gets 150mph taken off it's top speed 'for balance' is the ME 262 and then you point out how that is wrong and people are saying  'Oh Jodgi wants a super Me 262' and people who even say 'Well the thrust of those jet engines were actually counter-productive to speed you see, so it actually was that slow'.

 

During this past year of testing, it went from being 2,010 HP per side to 4,658 difference from the Bellona.

 

I can only take so much.

 

For the difference in tonnage between the Constitution and Bellona (39), those tons of difference are currently valued at 199 HP per ton. For the difference in tonnage between the Trincomalee and the Constitution (520) those tons are valued 0.42 HP.

 

So by me pointing that out is not me wanting a 'super connie', by people defending that is them wanting a 'cheated Connie' and a 'super trinc'. Pretty nailed on there.

 

And when and where and how is a Constitution too much for a SoL to handle? I'll jump in a Victory and wreck 2 Constitutions in my sleep.

 

You want to talk imbalance? I've taken out Sols with frigates. You may have too, it takes the full hour, but it's doable. Ask Prater what he's been doing in his Surprise.

 

Anyway this is all totally pointless and just rehashed nonsense now, did you not see where admin has said that the gaps between ships (due to not having a lot of ships) during testing is now going to be changed to historical levels because we have more ships coming? That's pretty much why we have the proposal thread going on. The game is headed in the right direction.

 

PS What the Rakers or TDA like, want and dislike is irrelevant and anecdotal. 

[maturin]

The 'super-Connie' concern has very little to do with HP. It's speed that counts.

 

A fast Connie wipes the sea clean of all other frigates, regardless of what the exact HP total is, because she carries 15 24-pounders. Then no one can have fun PvP until they grind to that level.

[NorthernWolves]

So the answer is she can't catch any frigates and thus gets caught by SoLs? Sounds like a ton of fun.

 

And there was never an epidemic of Connies sweeping the sea back when she was fast, there was an epidemic of trincs griefing lynxes however.

[maturin]

 

So the answer is she can't catch any frigates and thus gets caught by SoLs? Sounds like a ton of fun.

 

And there was never an epidemic of Connies sweeping the sea back when she was fast, there was an epidemic of trincs griefing lynxes however.

She can't be caught by SoLs now, to my knowledge, and was never as fast as Trinc.

[Pagan Pete]

...or pirates get certain other advantages.

DAM!!!! I forgot to put 

Pyrates get a 'false flag' option, with a cool down timer.

[Snail]

Gee. What a surprise that all the non-pirate players should be leaping at any suggestion to nerf pirates. Or any "poll" weighted to suggest same.

[Valetudin Arian]

Nope, it's this gamer-meta rubbish that will bring the game down to the level of world of tanks. 

 

This game doesn't need separate PVE and PVP servers, what it needs is an arcade server and a sim server, like War Thunder, you guys can have your bubblegum tiers and hailing with click, and we can have the age of sail. 

Nope, it is this half brained idea that there is only one way to enjoy yourself, and that is at the expense of others, that brings games down. Honestly if the historic world happened the way you try and make people play it we would not be here, there were no pirates or fellow captains sitting in a chair at all docks telling captains which runs to do, which missions to accept, which crew to hire, and which ship to buy as well as any ships you hire.

The only thing the servers need is an "I am jealous of all players who are not playing the way I play" button, just so we know who to ignore.

[Blackie]

I'm a history buff myself, and a pirate game fan from way back. And this is the exact same argument that happens every time. It has always astounded me how much everyone wants to play the game their way and could care less about anyone else. I don't really understand the arcade crowd just wanting the biggest ship and the biggest guns and could care less about the history. But I don't really have to. It's their choice. Do their wants and needs outweigh the wants and needs of others? No. Not anymore than what history and realism fans want and need.

Why not honor both with a compromise. Why not make pirates as realistic as possible honoring their place in history. They were a blood thirsty lot who only cared about profit. They didn't want larger ships simply because they were too slow and required more crew, provisions, and maintenance than they could afford. They needed stout ships with enough firepower to intimidate merchants into surrendering, fast enough to outrun naval ships, and shallow enough draft to pull them up on a beach for careening and hiding out in inlets and rivers.

If people really want to play as pirates and sail the largest ship with the biggest guns, then why not choose privateering? You get a letter of marque from your favorite nation, can work your way up to the largest ship and guns and raid enemy shipping just like a pirate, and yet you win honor, renown, and rewards from your host nation. That's what you really want anyway. Many pirates also carried letters of marque to make them legitimate and avoid the hangman's noose.

This would allow those who want to live the life of a pirate a realistic historical simulation. Pirates were usually merchant or naval seamen who traded the unrewarding hardship of serving aboard a naval or merchant ship for a life of freedom and adventure. It was usually a shorter life but it was their choice. All pirates want is a small ship and a chance to be free. Please don't force us to play this game like a naval officer. It will ruin the game for us.