PvP, PvE arraignged by geography not servers.

[Brass Monkey]

I started this thread to see if their are any other greedy players out there who want both PvP and good immersive PvE content all on the one server. 

 

One argument for PvP, PvE specific servers is that the over active AI ships and fleets interfere with the PvP gameplay. Fair enough we don't want that.

My argument is- "It's a bloody Big Map!" I don't know what the population cap for the servers will be but will there be enough players on a PvP only server to provide good game play everywhere or will a majority of the players end up concentrated in a few areas where the action is. I'm thinking it will be the later.

 

If this is so then It would be an awful waste of space. What I propose is that the PvP, PvE content is divided up geographically with the more popular PvP areas having less active/aggressive AI ships/fleets while the more "remote" untraveled areas contain extensive PvE content and more aggressive interactive AI. It would get more use out of the map and give the players freedom to participate in both play styles without changing servers.

 

Thoughts:

[SteelSandwich]

Seriously, why force players that don't want PVP onto a pvp server and restrict players who want to pvp to certain area's just to accommodate PvE'ers.

 

Again, with all due respect, just separate the servers. We don't want PVE'ers on the PVP server and the other way around.

 

EDIT:

This discussion has been held maybe close to a dozen times so far.

I don't think it has merit, just let the players choose where they want to go.

Edited November 11, 2015 by SteelSandwich

['Sharpe]

Agreed with Sandwich. When you have a shared server, people gripe when they get attacked ("Come on, this is my last dura/I have my good mods/etc"). Once the server is named PvP, that goes away to an extent -- people know what they signed up for and more people will actually fight each other. This is what the PvPers want, and exactly what the PvEers don't want, so I don't see a problem with separating the servers.

[Brass Monkey]

Seriously, why force players that don't want PVP onto a pvp server and restrict players who want to pvp to certain area's just to accommodate PvE'ers.

 

Again, with all due respect, just separate the servers. We don't want PVE'ers on the PVP server and the other way around.

 

EDIT:

This discussion has been held maybe close to a dozen times so far.

I don't think it has merit, just let the players choose where they want to go.

 

Agreed with Sandwich. When you have a shared server, people gripe when they get attacked ("Come on, this is my last dura/I have my good mods/etc"). Once the server is named PvP, that goes away to an extent -- people know what they signed up for and more people will actually fight each other. This is what the PvPers want, and exactly what the PvEers don't want, so I don't see a problem with separating the servers.

I think you guys are missing the point. It is a PvP server and will have that in its name so no one will be able to say they didn't know. It's about having a "PvP" server with PvE content as well.

Are you guys traveling and utilizing the hole map at the moment? What restrictions are you talking about the map is huge. I enjoy pvp, loved the "sea trials" But I don't always have time to commit to a full PvP game style due to work and Australian time zone.

If a mix of the 2 is possible I will like to test it. We are still in the development stage so what's the harm in having a look. Who knows if the game is popular enough we may have enough interest for all 3 types of servers. PvP, PvE and PvP/PvE.

 

Thanks as always for taking the time to share your thoughts. This really is going to be a great game ether way.

 

Edit: If it comes down to PvP or  PvE only. I'm choosing PvP.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Brass Monkey

[LeBoiteux]

I agree with SteelSandwich and Sharpe. Just some thoughts :

My argument is- "It's a bloody Big Map!" NO, not enough to zone it in PVP zones and PVE one. Besides, to me, the idea of zoning NA is awful, quite similar to an arena mode in small maps such as War Thunder. NA OW is to be wide.
I don't know what the population cap for the servers will be  2000-3000 ppl
but will there be enough players on a PvP only server to provide good game play everywhere I hope NA will be a success. Will there be 1 or 2 PVP server(s) ? Who knows ?
or will a majority of the players end up concentrated in a few areas where the action is. I'm thinking it will be the later. WIth trade, exploration and RvR (port battle), all the map will be used.
 
If this is so then It would be an awful waste of space. OH NO !!! PVE and PVP need that space. That's a sailing game. I want it bigger. I want expansions, expansions, ex-pannnn-sionnnnsss : the mediterranean Sea, North Europe, Africa, Terra Incognita....
What I propose is that the PvP, PvE content is divided up geographically with the more popular PvP areas having less active/aggressive AI ships/fleets while the more "remote" untraveled areas contain extensive PvE content and more aggressive interactive AI. It would get more use out of the map and give the players freedom to participate in both play styles without changing servers.
 
Thoughts:

I think you guys are missing the point. It is a PvP server and will have that in its name so no one will be able to say they didn't know. But in your mind, PVE server isn't needed, right ? Strange way to force PVE player into PVP...
It's about having a "PvP" server with PvE content as well. (see below)
Are you guys traveling and utilizing the hole map at the moment? YES
What restrictions are you talking about the map is huge. Exploration and trade voyages need space. Port battles needs diversity and numerous possible targets. Only skirmish mode doesn't need space...
I enjoy pvp, loved the "sea trials". But I don't always have time to commit to a full PvP game style due to work and Australian time zone. I may be mistaken, but I think Admin wrote there would be AI bots on the PVP server when needed, that is during low attendance hours, exactly what you ask.
If a mix of the 2 is possible I will like to test it. We are still in the development stage so what's the harm in having a look. Who knows if the game is popular enough we may have enough interest for all 3 types of servers. PvP, PvE and PvP/PvE.
 
Thanks as always for taking the time to share your thoughts. This really is going to be a great game ether way. You're right  .
 
Edit: If it comes down to PvP or  PvE only. I'm choosing PvP.

Edited November 11, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[SeamanStaines]

Myself I want both. Yes PVP is better but frankly only a small percentage of my battles are PVP. It may be easier for those living in time zones where many players are online. Those of us in Asia Pacific region are not so lucky.

[SteelSandwich]

One thing needs to be cleared up because i don't think you are aware of that.

As Leboiteux briefly mentioned, NPC's will be sailing around in the PVP server. Quantity is unknown, yet they will never seize to exist.

The clue of the PVP server is that besides mostly hunting NPC's, you will change up your ship diet with players.

 

The PVE server will be exactly the same, but without the ability to attack other players.

 

So, again, whats the point you are trying to make?

Because i sincerely can't figure out what i have 'overlooked' here.

 

EDIT:

And with that said, for the love of god don't let geography separate the players, just do it with a different server.

As mentioned above:

We don't want pure PVE'ers on the PVP server and the other way around.

Edited November 11, 2015 by SteelSandwich

[Ned Loe]

Yeah, it would be nice.

[Red Jack Walker]

One thing needs to be cleared up because i don't think you are aware of that.

As Leboiteux briefly mentioned, NPC's will be sailing around in the PVP server. Quantity is unknown, yet they will never seize to exist.

The clue of the PVP server is that besides mostly hunting NPC's, you will change up your ship diet with players.

 

The PVE server will be exactly the same, but without the ability to attack other players.

 

So, again, whats the point you are trying to make?

Because i sincerely can't figure out what i have 'overlooked' here.

 

EDIT:

And with that said, for the love of god don't let geography separate the players, just do it with a different server.

As mentioned above:

We don't want pure PVE'ers on the PVP server and the other way around.

That is the perfect set up in my opinion too. Just a question (sorry if it has been already answered ): will it be possible to jump from Pve server to Pvp one, or viceversa? In that case, will a player keep his experience, rank, ships or will he need a different profile/player/login?  

Thank you in advance for your answer, captains !

Edited November 11, 2015 by Captain Foster

[SteelSandwich]

No.

 

There will be (atleast) 2 server, one is the regular game as we have now and one will be non-pvp. (the PVP and PVE server respectively in this discussion)

Progress on either of these servers is restricted to that specific server.

[Red Jack Walker]

No.

 

There will be (atleast) 2 server, one is the regular game as we have now and one will be non-pvp. (the PVP and PVE server respectively in this discussion)

Progress on either of these servers is restricted to that specific server.

Thank you for your answer, SteelSandwich.   

[Brass Monkey]

One thing needs to be cleared up because i don't think you are aware of that.

As Leboiteux briefly mentioned, NPC's will be sailing around in the PVP server. Quantity is unknown, yet they will never seize to exist.

The clue of the PVP server is that besides mostly hunting NPC's, you will change up your ship diet with players.

 

The PVE server will be exactly the same, but without the ability to attack other players.

 

So, again, whats the point you are trying to make?

Because i sincerely can't figure out what i have 'overlooked' here.

 

EDIT:

And with that said, for the love of god don't let geography separate the players, just do it with a different server.

As mentioned above:

We don't want pure PVE'ers on the PVP server and the other way around.

Ok. I'm just going to look at the last bit of your post here and I think the point I'm trying to make will become clear. I never said I wanted to mix pure pve'ers with pure pvp'ers. How many players testing this game are pure pvp'ers? How many of them are even getting a majority of their xp from pvp? Probably not that many especially those from the less populated time zones. The reality is alot of us are playing both play styles.

The point I'm trying to make is the PVE game play as it stands in the current server/patch has been completely nerfed. I have brought this up in other threads asking why dose the Ai behave in such an uninteresting, unrealistic way. They attack nobody, defend nothing and sail around like ducks in a shooting gallery.

I was informed by other members that this was because when more active they interfered with the PVP game play. Now I'm not a pure pvp'er or a pure pve'er. Why should I have to choose a server where I get only pve or pvp with a completely nerfed pve. I want Pvp but sometimes when I log on there is stuff all pvp going on. Why can't I decided "well I'm not going to get much pvp action I'll just sail/teleport over here where I know I'll get some good interactive content with some Ai (that actually fight and behave like real captains) until the PVP picks up again. Is this really that hard to understand or that unobtainable with such a huge map without destroying the die hard pvp'ers utopian pvp only server? Well geez I don't know how about we test it!

Also I'm struggling with the "we don't want" content of your post. Who is this "we" you are referring to and are you claiming superior ownership of this game over the rest of the testing community?

Just relax and let stuff get tested!

[Arnaud Arpes]

I find absolutely no problem with the current setup. And I have a feeling that when Port Battles are added, the PVP aspect will be much easier to get into. As the devs have said, they plan on having attacks/defenses known about prior to them actually taking place, as the attacking fleet must carry some flag or something to the enemy port to attack it. The defenders can intercept or wait to defend. This should help rule out the 'its a big map/ I'm lost/ where is everyone' feeling some get who are just after PVP. Also, once port battles are in place, I would expect that most action would take place where national waters bump up against one another, sort of like a border.

I would also expect, that on a server style as we have now, with both AI and Players, that the AI numbers could be diminished as more players play. From either the devs lessening their spawn rate and players destroying them.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Arnaud Arpes

[SteelSandwich]

Ok. I'm just going to look at the last bit of your post here and I think the point I'm trying to make will become clear. I never said I wanted to mix pure pve'ers with pure pvp'ers. How many players testing this game are pure pvp'ers? How many of them are even getting a majority of their xp from pvp? Probably not that many especially those from the less populated time zones. The reality is alot of us are playing both play styles.

The point I'm trying to make is the PVE game play as it stands in the current server/patch has been completely nerfed. I have brought this up in other threads asking why dose the Ai behave in such an uninteresting, unrealistic way. They attack nobody, defend nothing and sail around like ducks in a shooting gallery.

AI are a constant WIP, i fully agree that improvement is welcome.

I was informed by other members that this was because when more active they interfered with the PVP game play.

Not sure where they got that information from, but that doesn't sound logical to me...

Now I'm not a pure pvp'er or a pure pve'er. Why should I have to choose a server where I get only pve or pvp with a completely nerfed pve.

As mentioned above, i am not sure where you got that information from. There is simply no way that game-labs are going to implement a broken AI on the pvp server, that is not only irrational but also unprofitable.

I want Pvp but sometimes when I log on there is stuff all pvp going on. Why can't I decided "well I'm not going to get much pvp action I'll just sail/teleport over here where I know I'll get some good interactive content with some Ai (that actually fight and behave like real captains) until the PVP picks up again. Is this really that hard to understand or that unobtainable with such a huge map without destroying the die hard pvp'ers utopian pvp only server? Well geez I don't know how about we test it!

Also I'm struggling with the "we don't want" content of your post. Who is this "we" you are referring to and are you claiming superior ownership of this game over the rest of the testing community?

Just relax and let stuff get tested!

He! I am all for 1 server where everyone is part off. The very reason why the devs are making separate server is because of the players that cry about ganking and pvp in general. They want a risk-free, care bear environment. THAT is why there are going to be separate servers, not because i want it to, but because the small crying manority gets their way.

And armed with that knowledge (that the devs don't want it and the community doesn't want it), this idea might be solid in your eyes, but aren't in mine.

[LeBoiteux]

The very reason why the devs are making separate server is because of the players that cry about ganking and pvp in general. They want a risk-free, care bear environment. THAT is why there are going to be separate servers, not because i want it to, but because the small crying manority gets their way.

That's a lack of respect for PVE players. I don't like it. Was it essential for your demonstration ? 

I'm all for 2 servers.

Edited November 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[SteelSandwich]

That's a lack of respect for PVE players. I don't like it. Was it essential for your demonstration ? 

I'm all for 2 servers.

I have respect for players who opt for PvE preference. Some of the people that i play with on a daily basis prefer to fight PvE all day long.

I, however, don't have respect for the players who cry to the best of their ability that the whole world is set against them and that PvP is the last reincarnation of the devil himself.

Why? For the very reason we nearly had a gamemechanic forcing 1v1 fights(anti-ganking), it's a select number of players that or so vocal that it simulates a large group.

 

I'll try to dig up some topics showing what i mean.

[LeBoiteux]

(don't want to waste my time with that endless quarrel between PVEers and PVPers) 

Edited November 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[Johny Reb]

Until this server has a reasonable population a discussion about the splitting of servers in premature. It will only cause strife as it has in many other threads.

 

Once this server looks like its gonna reach its max (3000) then splitting the servers won't make any difference. In this case I hope all the loud carebears move on. I'm tired of their crying and I've seen it over and over in Potbs. Eventually, they will start telling the pvp'ers how to do their job or get upset when ports are getting flipped that they use. Again, they will attack the pvp'ers yet hide behind islands and run from every fight and charge huge prices for the ships they build. Far as I'm concerned, when the population supports a split, then good riddance.

 

Note: I am referring to the minority of PvE'ers above that are vocal a cry the loudest and not to the average pve player that just plays their game.

 

Until the server population justifies a split then I will remind you that the game is made to represent real life age of sail war. During war "pve" players plied their trades with all the risks associated with it. They were not fighters. They probably hated when their ship was taken but that was the way it was.

[Macjimm]

This thread has presented some informative opinions.  I’ve never played any other multiplayer naval game and am unaware of the history that has created such a gulf between game styles.

 

I had thought that this game would be a beautiful looking simulation of naval combat in the age of sail.  And that the infrastructure of supply & repair  and the manufacture of ships and materiel would be a integral part of the game.  I had no idea that creating a virtual world would be so complicated and limited.  But as  I understand it is not feasible to create a virtual world of combat on a scale of 3000 players without using some ingenious features like “instances” .   Encouraging fast paced fighting within the current constraints requires number other fixed mechanisms to maintain completive fairness. 

 

I laugh at myself for thinking it would be as easy as buying and outfitting a ship and sailing out into hostile waters seeking conflict, or sailing in friendly waters to support my countries war effort through the transportation of goods.  I unknowing thought that there would be nights of complete darkness, fish and dangerous weather.  Unless I was in very friendly water  I envisioned that I would spend time scanning the horizon for enemy ships.  And once seen I would have an option of fleeing to avoid hardship.  I expected that sometimes  I would be a victim and hopefully with luck learn to create victims of others.    In order to facilitate lots of battles the game mechanics are far more sophisticated.    It is not always easy to see a threat approaching

 

When I read the start of this thread I thought that it seemed like a good idea.  The creation of some relatively friendly waters where players could trade and neutral areas where it is possible practice combat with AI.  When ready the players can venture out into the deadly zones and embrace human foes.  We could create areas that were packed with fighting and please the players who are eager.  Others could avoid fights by avoiding certain areas.  Additionally a third group could enjoy a  mix of both styles and plot their courses near the boundaries.

 

But it seems that the nuances of the game mechanics combined with the politics of competitive gaming make such a simple idea impractical.  The details are just far too complex .

 

It is helpful to hear the explanations of the PvP style clashing with the PvE.  At least for those of us who have not played PoTBS or MMOs.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Macjimm

[Brass Monkey]

SteelSandwich: and others.

I think I have misrepresented what i was trying to say from the start through wrong terminology. I put forward the idear of pve areas designated by geology. Where I think a great misunderstanding has occurred is i never ment pve only and that players could not be attacked by other players in those areas. That these areas become some sort of safe zone. What i should have said areas where their are high Ai content. It seems in this forum pve means pvp is restricted or disallowed. This is Not what ment to say at all.I used pve as pve content, as player vs environment/AI content. As in an environment where the Ai attack players and defend their territory realistically.

I apologise for the misuse of terminology and also bringing a train of thought over from another thread where I suggested the gloves be taken off the Ai and they should basically behave more like players. Since some members had a problem with that idea saying it interfered with pvp play too much and belonged in a pve only server. I started this thread to see what others thought.

Basically I'm after areas where more intensive AI behave more realistically, ie.chase and engage anything they can defeat, defend territories, enter battles and run from anything they can't. And areas where they are less intrusive allowing free pvp game play all on the one server.

I hope this clears up my position and what I'm actually trying to suggest.

That being said in a 3000 population cap server this may not be needed at all which is an excellent point. But we don't have that now.

[PIerrick de Badas]

The idea i have had about pve pvp is a bit silly and probably hard to develop but let see:

 

Pacific is PVE only

Atlantic is PvP only

a player start with 2 outpost, one in pvp area one in pve area. This 2 outpost can't be destroyed and the player can switch between both side. You are no tping with ships neitheir cargo, just the captain. It prevent people to farm a victory in pve side and bring it to pvp side.

People is free to grind npc to improve level/rank/whateverbadideagamelabhasaboutfarming in pve side as grining is often made into IA. If the player is commodore in pve side and decide to switch to atlantic then he is commodore in atlantic . It will be hard for him as he don't has xp in pvp but that's his choice.

 

With this system everyone wil be able to play on same server sharing informations on all the nations. Players will be able to farm in pve if they want too in a quiet place when they are few or in a small nation and don't want to be zerg and when they will have reach the level they want or get the number they think they can match, they can tp to atlantic outpost where it's open war and join pvp/rvr side.

 

Pacific would be like a backup base for everyone solving anhilation problem (when a nation is so weak it can't match ever/craft ships). It allow people that loves both pve and pvp to play, pvp players playing alone and boring to be gank could farm quietplace in pacific and pvp in atlantic. Pve players will not be ganked exept if they want too as they get a perfect place without any rish of pvp.

 

Wgat about the idea?

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

For the purposes of the meta-game, PvE and PvP should be entirely separated on two different servers.  Being able to just fold your clan into an area where you can grind freely, then transport those gained resources back over to the PvP side removes a large portion of gameplay that revolves around economic warfare and resource denial.  Keep the two paradigms completely separate, separate resources, assets, rank, etc.  Those who are entirely risk averse can enjoy the full content of the game on the PvE server, and those that want action against other players, and all of the great gameplay that comes from the meta-game surrounding that action can play on the PvP server.

[Brass Monkey]

For the purposes of the meta-game, PvE and PvP should be entirely separated on two different servers.  Being able to just fold your clan into an area where you can grind freely, then transport those gained resources back over to the PvP side removes a large portion of gameplay that revolves around economic warfare and resource denial.  Keep the two paradigms completely separate, separate resources, assets, rank, etc.  Those who are entirely risk averse can enjoy the full content of the game on the PvE server, and those that want action against other players, and all of the great gameplay that comes from the meta-game surrounding that action can play on the PvP server.

Some questions.  Can you outline what the major differences between the two servers will be? Will players be able to engage other players on the pve server? Will port battles exist in an altered form? Will the Ai behave differently?

 

I also have a concern that this amazing PvP server that you talk about and what we are testing don't match up. At the moment I'm logging on to find player numbers between 30 and 100. The small amount of players I do come across are sailing around just outside their favourite harbour grinding mindless AI. They usually don't bother to attack me even if they are in a superior ship. These grinding players are levelling up faster then players who are looking for player vs player combat and therefore will hold an advantage when port battles comes in. Also resources are always available due to enterprising players trading in neutral ports and free towns.  So in effect we are testing exactly what you don't want.

 

So I ask; Will the pvp server be consistently interesting enough across the entire map and all times zones on player driven content alone? And how can we test that because we are not testing it now.

[SteelSandwich]

Some questions.  Can you outline what the major differences between the two servers will be? Will players be able to engage other players on the pve server? Will port battles exist in an altered form? Will the Ai behave differently?

 

I also have a concern that this amazing PvP server that you talk about and what we are testing don't match up. At the moment I'm logging on to find player numbers between 30 and 100. The small amount of players I do come across are sailing around just outside their favourite harbour grinding mindless AI. They usually don't bother to attack me even if they are in a superior ship. These grinding players are levelling up faster then players who are looking for player vs player combat and therefore will hold an advantage when port battles comes in. Also resources are always available due to enterprising players trading in neutral ports and free towns.  So in effect we are testing exactly what you don't want.

 

So I ask; Will the pvp server be consistently interesting enough across the entire map and all times zones on player driven content alone? And how can we test that because we are not testing it now.

The PvP server is the current game. Where NPC's fill the seas(currently in higher quantity until there are more players) and are joined by players. On this server players can still attack and grind on NPC's, yet also have the ability to attack players.

 

The PvE server will be, in most aspects, exactly the same. The seas will be filled with NPC's on which players can grind.

Yet attacking other players wont be possible. Most likely a duel feature will be implemented, allowing players to duel if they both wish to do so.

Port battles won't exist in the form they will in the PvP server. Most likely they are generated instances in which players and NPC's participate to simulate a port battle.

Regardless of the outcome, this won't affect the status quo.

 

On the topic of AI, i think they will be identical. Regardless of the server you are on, AI are supposed to flee/attack when the situation would make it a rational choice. I don't see any reason why there would be a difference between them.

 

EDIT:

The main difference between the server will be, on request of the players who prefer PvE gaming, that other players cannot (or marginally) influence their game(in a potentially negative way).

Edited November 22, 2015 by SteelSandwich