Pay to Win DLC

[Marquês do Bonfim]

"But the game is only fun when I'm winning." - Player nowadays

I suck at PVP, came back to the PVP server with the Redoutable, now I'm having fun, but still getting sunk. I'm improving, I'm learning and now I don't have to go through the grinding to have a ship. I still have to grind my ranks, though, so I can fully crew my Redoutable. I don't bitch about it, I don't complain about it, I just go for it. I have the Hermione, the Rattvisan and the Redoutable and that saved me a ton of time and sweat. It does have your perks, but it's not all roses, if you're not good sailing those ships, doesn't matter if it's te/wo, lo/wo, wo/wo, you will be sunk by a more experienced and equipped player, period.

I have the DLCs, but I don't have the books, the upgrades, the money, the buildings to supply myself, so it's still a grind! It's not pay to win if you're not being forced to buy it and you're still get sunk in-game. I don't mind 3rd rates as DLC ships, but if the game goes further with it and bring us 1st rate DLCs, it will definitely break the balance. The Redoutable saved RvR and PBs on the PVP server, as more players are being part of it and they're having fun. The only reason why I bought it was to be able to do RvRs and PBs, that's my end game goal right there.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Portuguese Privateer

[Thonys]

On 3/5/2020 at 2:39 PM, Angus MacDuff said:

The other day I killed 4 Hercs (in four separate battles) with a crafted Snow.  More DLC = more targets.  They paid...I won....

but, but, but, but,....... that is.... pay to lose   0.0

 

[GrubbyZebra]

On 3/5/2020 at 5:12 AM, HachiRoku said:

Why would that be p2w yet ship's not. A ship costs money too. At the end of the day you are just buying the product that you would buy with reals anyway. 

Rockstar does it the other way around with gta. The dlcs are free yet you can buy the money. The end result is the exact same. The more real world money you spend the easier it gets. Exactly what the industry definition of p2w is. The more dlc ships added the worse it gets. Why this needs to be explained is beyond me. To this date no-one has ever given me a logical explanation of why I am wrong. I cannot respond to the Devs because they simple refuse to have a discussion about it. They have the last word and that is not how a discussion should work. We all know that the community will buy the dlc anyway. If people had standards free to play and micro transactions would not exist. In the case of naval action the Devs are actually not even fully responsible. The community asked for it and the Devs would be stupid not to add p2w content on demand. 

buying currency is p2w because with enough currency, you can obtain anything in the game at any point.  As you stated:
 

Quote

The more real world money you spend the easier it gets. Exactly what the industry definition of p2w is.

DLC ships are p2p, not p2w, because (so far) they are easily countered by other ships obtainable in game via other means, and because there is a limit as to the number and frequency they can be redeemed, and they are 1-time purchases (you can't keep spending money to get better and better stats on the ship).

[HachiRoku]

On 3/10/2020 at 2:54 AM, GrubbyZebra said:

DLC ships are p2p, not p2w, because (so far) they are easily countered by other ships obtainable in game via other means, and because there is a limit as to the number and frequency they can be redeemed, and they are 1-time purchases (you can't keep spending money to get better and better stats on the ship).

Except that there are more than one dlc ship in game. The timer is meaningless. Buying the game is p2p. Love how you quote me with stats when I just said stats are meaningless. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Except that there are more than one dlc ship in game. The timer is meaningless. Buying the game is p2p. Love how you quote me with stats when I just said stats are meaningless. 

The biggest issue is:

DLC ships aren't available ingame in any other form than a external purchase.

DLC ships bypasses a continous grind for dubs/reals/ressources and thus allows those with DLC ships to keep the pressure up on the side who doesn't have DLC ships. This makes an impact in RvR, one of the reasons for the swedish bitchin' about the danno-norwegian PBs is exactly the DLC ships. After the introduction of the third rate DLC everyone can keep playing despite getting 1-ported, which means there can be no "win" in RvR. At the same time a larger nation can be grinded down simply by mounting losses from consecutive PBs. 

Answers for this dilemma should've been to restrict DLC ships from PBs but since they've been released this is no longer an option. The biggest problem in the DLC line-up is actually the LRQ since it has no counter in RvR and is a troll hunter basically. The redoubtable is a meh ship at best, depending on the RNG port bonus', and it can easily be killed 1v1, but the LRQ has no counter, and no natural enemies.

[Guest]

On 2/11/2020 at 2:00 PM, phantomswake said:

It is a trend that keeps seeping into the western market as a whole. But as you are seeing now its starting to over take this game as well. Now you need the newest DLC to compete and be a viable player, or you will be playing with such handicap that the game is not fun.

I was alright with the DLC being in the lower rate ships, let me stress not really happy but tolerant. I mean the La Wreck is nothing more than a seal clubber that I don't feel was good for the game but I put up with it. BUT NOW, there is DLC in our 3rd rates, something that should never have been touched. 1st to 3rd rates should never have been touched with DLC ships. IT's way to much of a power spike for anyone who buys the DLC over someone who doesn't.

Its to greedy. It bad for the game, I am not paying for it and I am sad that its here. I love this game, I want to see it do good, but not like this. Its to much and to far.

More players sail around in 3rd rates now, sinking a 3rd rate gives 3k doubloons or something. I dont mind that

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Je maintiendrai said:

More players sail around in 3rd rates now, sinking a 3rd rate gives 3k doubloons or something. I dont mind that

lol true, but the point remains.. I sink more than I get sunk and I more or less only sails DLC ships now. I got about 340k dubs in my warehouse and I haven't harvested ressources other than coal, iron and sugar for.. ages..

[Vizzini]

10 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

The biggest issue is:

DLC ships aren't available ingame in any other form than a external purchase.

 

Up until the release of the Leopard, they were all available for ingame currency, albeit extremely high combat medal cost

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, Lars Kjaer said:

The biggest issue is:

DLC ships aren't available ingame in any other form than a external purchase.

DLC ships bypasses a continous grind for dubs/reals/ressources and thus allows those with DLC ships to keep the pressure up on the side who doesn't have DLC ships. This makes an impact in RvR, one of the reasons for the swedish bitchin' about the danno-norwegian PBs is exactly the DLC ships. After the introduction of the third rate DLC everyone can keep playing despite getting 1-ported, which means there can be no "win" in RvR. At the same time a larger nation can be grinded down simply by mounting losses from consecutive PBs. 

Answers for this dilemma should've been to restrict DLC ships from PBs but since they've been released this is no longer an option. The biggest problem in the DLC line-up is actually the LRQ since it has no counter in RvR and is a troll hunter basically. The redoubtable is a meh ship at best, depending on the RNG port bonus', and it can easily be killed 1v1, but the LRQ has no counter, and no natural enemies.

The solution on day one would have made them craftabale. It was the only solution. Do not forget that while the 2 of use are debating balance to the eco the devs are aware of this. Its by design. Do not forget that. No publisher or developer unintentionally adds game breaking dlc into the game. If EA or Activision did this there would be murder.... 

Its to late anyway. I only hope gamelabs reconsider the ships being craft able in na2. 

[Guest]

Making them craftable would mean less revenue for gamelabs lol 

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, Lars Kjaer said:

lol true, but the point remains.. I sink more than I get sunk and I more or less only sails DLC ships now. I got about 340k dubs in my warehouse and I haven't harvested ressources other than coal, iron and sugar for.. ages..

I can't respect anyone that is critical of a dlc model and buys it anyway. Your money means more than your words. 

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, Je maintiendrai said:

Making them craftable would mean less revenue for gamelabs lol 

Nah I'm sure it was so people would have more content because the gaming industry only cares about the player..... 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Nah I'm sure it was so people would have more content because the gaming industry only cares about the player..... 

Gaming industries aim to generate profits like most companies do. Making the DLC craftable adds no benefit compared to other ships or am I missing something now

[HachiRoku]

17 minutes ago, Je maintiendrai said:

Gaming industries aim to generate profits like most companies do. Making the DLC craftable adds no benefit compared to other ships or am I missing something now

You're missing the sarcasm. You were spot on. 

[John Cavanaugh]

The DLC ship model is functionally the same as the time skipping micro transactions that have plagued mobile and flash games whether solo or multiplayer since the late 2000’s. Pay extra to save time and effort. It is not necessary to make these payments to play and enjoy the game. It IS necessary to make these payments if you wish to play the game competitively, as they provide a definite advantage. 

In the case of Naval Action, while these DLC ships were 4th rate and lower, and prior to the addition of seasoned woods, the advantage was negligible and not worth arguing over. Hercules vs a surprise that you can pump out for virtually no cost at all. An issue of principle not of practicality. 

Now we have redeemable super wood ships that compete with rare permit ships. No longer simply principle. Pay to Win? I sank @Player RUS‘s blue 4slot bellona with a redoutable largely due to the fact that I had 97cm thick sides compared to his 82. Certainly no pay to win here. /sarcasm 

[Smoothie]

On 3/4/2020 at 6:17 PM, BuckleUpBones said:

War Thunder, WOWS... heck they all have some sort of in-game currency packs, why not NA?

Cause these games are Free2Play, while NA is not. 

[BuckleUpBones]

On 3/12/2020 at 8:28 PM, Smoothie said:

Cause these games are Free2Play, while NA is not. 

And your point for not adding currencies packs is?

And by the way @admin we can add to the currencies packs…

XP Bonus Packs.

Sailors Cap $5.

• Plus 100% Player XP for 24 hours.

Captain Cap $10.

• Plus 200% Player XP for 24 hours.

Flag Ship of the Battle $5.

• Plus 100% Ship XP for 24 hours.

Flag Ship of the Fleet $10.

• Plus 200% Ship XP for 24 hours.

 

PS, bonuses and currencies packs only speed up players progression and purchases, there’s no extra gameplay (battle instance) advantages within these packs. In essence, all players still face the ‘possibility’ of coming up against available items in-game, nothing changes in this instance.

PPS, if players apply bonuses then they would be very motivated to go out and do more pvp.

Edited March 15, 2020 by BuckleUpBones

[Conte D. Catellani]

i 'm agree for DLC about a lot of doublonons, extra port space, extra building.... but Xp....

No way, you have suffer for your Xp..No Pain no Gain

 

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Conte D. Catellani

[mexicanbatman]

2 hours ago, BuckleUpBones said:

And your point for not adding currencies packs is?

And by the way @admin we can add to the currencies packs…

XP Bonus Packs.

Sailors Cap $5.

• Plus 100% Player XP for 24 hours.

Captain Cap $10.

• Plus 200% Player XP for 24 hours.

Flag Ship of the Battle $5.

• Plus 100% Ship XP for 24 hours.

Flag Ship of the Fleet $10.

• Plus 200% Ship XP for 24 hours.

 

PS, bonuses and currencies packs only speed up players progression and purchases, there’s no extra gameplay (battle instance) advantages within these packs. In essence, all players still face the ‘possibility’ of coming up against available items in-game, nothing changes in this instance.

PPS, if players apply bonuses then they would be very motivated to go out and do more pvp.

meh these should just be weekend events were xp gets doubled in certain locations for pvp  

[BuckleUpBones]

On 3/16/2020 at 8:13 AM, mexicanbatman said:

meh these should just be weekend events were xp gets doubled in certain locations for pvp  

Very good idea, what the team can do is a 'trial', make these packs available for one weekend only (birthday event), then evaluate the results and see if it’s viable for the long term (see how many buy them compared to how many don't).

Could do some one off 'combo packs'. 

Edited March 16, 2020 by BuckleUpBones

[GrubbyZebra]

On 3/11/2020 at 6:37 AM, HachiRoku said:

Except that there are more than one dlc ship in game. The timer is meaningless.

Who cares how many there are? You can still only redeem 1 of each during a 24 hr period, and they are not at all similar to each other.

Quote

Buying the game is p2p. 

yes, where did I say otherwise?

Quote

Love how you quote me with stats when I just said stats are meaningless. 

What stats did I quote? Also, you cannot make a valid argument if your premise includes "all counter arguments are invalid". 

[GrubbyZebra]

On 3/11/2020 at 6:54 AM, Lars Kjaer said:

The biggest problem in the DLC line-up is actually the LRQ since it has no counter in RvR and is a troll hunter basically. The redoubtable is a meh ship at best, depending on the RNG port bonus', and it can easily be killed 1v1, but the LRQ has no counter, and no natural enemies.

LRQ is available in the admiralty store, as well.

[HachiRoku]

On 3/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, GrubbyZebra said:

Who cares how many there are? You can still only redeem 1 of each during a 24 hr period, and they are not at all similar to each other.

 

Well if there are ten good dlc ships you have more than enough ships to play the game but are still bypassing the economy. The more dlc ships there are added the more simular they become to eachother. Its kind of self explanatory. 

 

On 3/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, GrubbyZebra said:

yes, where did I say otherwise?

 

You said the DLC ships were pay to play, I was just pointing out that paying to play is unnecessary because the player already payed for the game. 

 

On 3/24/2020 at 3:27 AM, GrubbyZebra said:

What stats did I quote? Also, you cannot make a valid argument if your premise includes "all counter arguments are invalid". 

"and they are 1-time purchases (you can't keep spending money to get better and better stats on the ship"

As I said, stats are irrelevant because the ships are not pay to win because of stats. They are pay to win because you pay to bypass crafting and resource gathering.  

 

Here are some solid facts: 

Ships are part of the Economy and RVR.

Ships influence the outcome of combat.

Combat influences the RVR.

Winning RVR is the definition of winning in naval action. It is the ultimate goal of a nation to succeed in battle. 

How come having a stat advantage in a lobby based game is considered pay to win yet having an economical and time advantage in an RVR MMO is not?

[GrubbyZebra]

3 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

 

Well if there are ten good dlc ships you have more than enough ships to play the game but are still bypassing the economy. The more dlc ships there are added the more simular they become to eachother. Its kind of self explanatory. 

There is a practical limit to the number and types of DLC ships that should be made available, sure. But we have not reached that point yet. The economy in this game is also not centered on crafting ships, as much as I or anyone else may wish otherwise, so DLC ships do not "bypass the economy".

Quote

 

You said the DLC ships were pay to play, I was just pointing out that paying to play is unnecessary because the player already payed for the game. 

That doesn't change the fact that DLC ships in their current incarnation are also pay to play. I'm not sure what the argument is, here?

Quote

"and they are 1-time purchases (you can't keep spending money to get better and better stats on the ship"

As I said, stats are irrelevant because the ships are not pay to win because of stats. They are pay to win because you pay to bypass crafting and resource gathering.  

Here are some solid facts: 

Ships are part of the Economy and RVR.

Ships influence the outcome of combat.

Combat influences the RVR.

Winning RVR is the definition of winning in naval action. It is the ultimate goal of a nation to succeed in battle. 

Crafting and resource gathering are not the centerpiece of the economy.

Ships are part of, but not the focus of, the economy.

Ships influence on the outcome of battles is less than the individual captain's skill's influence.

Combat doesn't really influence RvR, as RvR, PvP, and PvE are all virtually distinct modes of gameplay currently with little meaningful overlap.

Naval Action is a sandbox game, and therefore is never "won" by definition. 

Quote

How come having a stat advantage in a lobby based game is considered pay to win yet having an economical and time advantage in an RVR MMO is not?

Because the game does not end, the short-term time and resource advantages are temporary and are averaged out over the course of longer time spans, and no meaningful stat advantage is gained.

Edited March 26, 2020 by GrubbyZebra

[HachiRoku]

17 hours ago, GrubbyZebra said:

There is a practical limit to the number and types of DLC ships that should be made available, sure. But we have not reached that point yet. The economy in this game is also not centered on crafting ships, as much as I or anyone else may wish otherwise, so DLC ships do not "bypass the economy".

That doesn't change the fact that DLC ships in their current incarnation are also pay to play. I'm not sure what the argument is, here?

Crafting and resource gathering are not the centerpiece of the economy.

Ships are part of, but not the focus of, the economy.

Ships influence on the outcome of battles is less than the individual captain's skill's influence.

Combat doesn't really influence RvR, as RvR, PvP, and PvE are all virtually distinct modes of gameplay currently with little meaningful overlap.

Naval Action is a sandbox game, and therefore is never "won" by definition. 

Because the game does not end, the short-term time and resource advantages are temporary and are averaged out over the course of longer time spans, and no meaningful stat advantage is gained.

You even admit that there is a practical limit of ships you can add. That means you see the issue. My point was always about its potenial. I said it back when we only had the Herc and requin. The problem scales drastically the more ships and the bigger the ships become. A 1 day timer is meaningless because people generally do not sink more than 1 or 2 ships a day. You admit it becomes a bigger problem the more ships are added but that is only because there is a problem with how they are implemented. 

 

Well the economy has no meaning without ships. Its not like there is anything else in the game that has value except upgrades and ships. Trading Resources are useless and only sold to the AI. You cannot do anything but sail so to say crafting ships is not part of the economy is simply nonsensical. If ships are part of the economy but not the focus then crafting also has to be. Both are the same. A ship is the product of crafting. The reason you want a certain port has nothing to do with its trade value. Its for building ships with certain bonuses. One of the most fought over ports in naval action was carthagena. It had nothing to do with its value in game. It was because the cathagena mod was so powerful in battle at the time. Economy does have an influence in battle. For upgrades alts were an issue but port bonuses make this issue a bit smaller. I think they are a good addition but it would be better to drop permanent mods. 

Where you are extremely wrong is the part were you say a captain has more influence in a battle than a ship. Game balance does not take skill into account!  A captain has influence over the outcome of the battle but that does not mean there is no issue. You seem to think I care about the battle instance performance of DLC ships. I do not. They are irrelevant. The fact that one ship was creating ingame with resources that are labor intensive and one ship cost nothing ingame is where I have an issue. Both ships can have an effect on the battle just by being inside them. That is the problem

The game having no end is not an argument. You basically have an infinite number of DLC ships to redeem. In an infinite number of time you can spawn an infinite number of ships. Doesn't matter if the timer is 10 years or 10 seconds. Someone will get sick of crafting far sooner than someone that is just redeeming. 

I guess microtransactions and XP boosters are also pay to play. You just pay to play faster. Not exactly incorrect.