RVR (port battles and territory control) feedback

[staun]

2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

how can say you're against multiflips/rvr gank and in the next breath say you're okay with pvp ganks, it makes no sense.

Have I said I am against multiflip?

I don’t think when I am on the ganking side it is fun. But I have plenty of fun then I get ganked. I don’t have a problem with gank. It helps the less skilled fight the elite players. Without gank the elite players could basicly sail free in OW. Just look at there K/D.

When it comes to RvR I am a bit torn. Not because of the fights, But more because the RvR impact the casual players. How often haven’t we see players stop, when they lose ports. Then on the other hand, this is a wargame.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, staun said:

But I have plenty of fun then I get ganked.

this is probably the biggest lie players tell themselves. truth is you hate ganks so much you use them in spite against other players, in revenge of getting ganked yourself.
If the game was balanced 3 noobs in ships 1/3rd the strength would take out a single veteran, that's not a gank BR wise.

[staun]

2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

because it's a principle, and it lacks congruence to say you do not want anyone to multiflip a nation's ports but on the same token say you're okay with and actually like getting ganked in pvp. Which one is it?

Well so you claim to be on a moral high Ground, and have the right to tell me what I should think and belive in?

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, staun said:

Well so you claim to be on a moral high Ground, and have the right to tell me what I should think and belive in?

No I'm saying you sound like masochist with stockholm syndrome for gank meta

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[staun]

1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

this is probably the biggest lie players tell themselves. truth is you hate ganks so much you use them in spite against other players, in revenge of getting ganked yourself.
If the game was balanced 3 noobs in ships 1/3rd the strength would take out a single veteran, that's not a gank BR wise.

No I don’t.

Fine you want to push your agenda of a 1,5 br limit. Guess this is what you are  trying. Plz correct me if I am wrong.

But to Call me a lier, just because I disagree with you, says more about you than me.

[staun]

1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

No I'm saying you sound like masochist with stockholm syndrome 

Even if thats was the truth,  do you have the right to say it is wrong? Well guess in the future I should ask you what I am allowed to belive in.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Wraith said:

Go play Legends. Oh... wait. No one wanted to play legends because, well, no one reeeeally likes "fair" fights.  See the problem there?

3 noobs v 1 dominant in real life are the same strength, and the noobs win 50% of the time. So technically everything within a certain BR is a fair fight no matter the numbers.

Except in NA balance is off so 3 noobs 1/3rd the size/strength get stomped almost every time instead of being an even 50/50 like it is true to life.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Lord Gud]

The problem I see here is everyone would rather argue than to give feedback/suggestions to improve RvR.

[Christendom]

Lets also not forget how many ports GB had lost back when Russia and Spain were taking them.  No one seemed to give a shit when that tag team was going on.  Just like no on gave a shit when Prussia was flipping multiple daytime pirate ports a day or when Russia was getting multi flipped several months ago.    

In my experience gamers will use whatever advantages that particular game allows them to, sometimes ones that aren't allowed, in order to win.  Winning is all.  NA allows rapid changing of territory, multi flips and other means that help a strong nation steam roll others.  These features/mechanics might be helpful if this game had a population of 1500-2000 players, but when we're circling the drain at 300....the mechanics do more harm than good.  

Live by the multi flip, die by the multi flip.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Christendom

[Slim McSauce]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

LOL, do you have data to back that up?  My point is that "rule" can't be applied when that 1 "dominant" carries a gun and the 3 "noobs" carry plastic spoons.

yes that's how dominance hierarchies in nature form. The dominant chimp loses to 3 weaker chimps roughly 50% of the time. So the dominant chimp doesn't do anything to provoke 3 weaker chimps 1/3rd the strength, because he will likely be removed. The same applies to 2 chimp 1/2 the strength.

Have you ever heard of the 21 foot rule? It's the distance that can be covered by a knife wielding attacked before you're able to draw a gun and shoot in reaction. It's the minimum safe distance. 3 people with knives could easily take out a single person with a gun.

The reason you attribute noobs v vets to spoons v guns is because that's how poorly balanced NA is, that you  see noobs in that compacity when in all all reality, if it was just you vs 3 noobs no mods, 3 repairs, you in a heavy 5th rate and them in lesser 6th rates you would have a very good chance of getting removed, thus how it happens in nature. (this applies to human dominace as well)

Better example, in a fist fight even though you're strong, you're not as stronger than 3 people 1/3rd your strength, in fact they have more limbs to hit you with.
same applies you v 20 toddlers, you may be strong but you're not stronger than 20 toddlers 1/20th your strength.
That's the rules of balance in nature, no gamey-ness involved.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Njord]

13 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

I, for one, would love to see a strong GB...,

 

8 hours ago, Christendom said:

Frankly I think the 3 “main” powers, GB / France / Spain, should be big and powerful  in the Caribbean as it was IRL.  Let’s not forget what position GB was in prior to havoc switching over.  A strong GB with smaller nations constantly pecking at them feels right IMO.  

where this game fails is how it caters to the Zerg and allows stream rolling via the snowball effect.  This is a mechanics / ROE issue.  Triple flips suck and the game should perhaps not allow them. 

I agree in that GB, France and Spain should be the strongest nations. Where I see the problem is, as Christendom also mentioned, the steam rolling and snowballing of the zerg nations, which rewards joining them too much. You should be rewarded for putting up a fight, not for joining the "gank". 

Fighting the mighty empire, almost like rebels, sounds fun, as long as it is rewarded accordingly and there is a realistic chance to fight back. 

Or we could cut the BS and remove all the "limitations that don't fit in a sandbox", as rediii suggested and remove any uncapturable status from capitals and all safe zones to really allow a nation to completely delete another from the game. Would be very interesting to see how this would play out.

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Sovereign

[Capn Rocko]

Prevent alts from setting contracts and you will have more meaningful RvR

It is not hard to implement.. @admin just needs to give an option that allows the port owner to select which clans are allowed to put up contracts in their ports (just like selecting which clans attend a port battle). Kick the alts out of the ports, you will have more players fighting for resources and more players teaming up to overthrow the zerg nations. 

[Christendom]

5 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

 

I agree in that GB, France and Spain should be the strongest nations. Where I see the problem is, as Christendom also mentioned, the steam rolling and snowballing of the zerg nations, which rewards joining them too much. You should be rewarded for putting up a fight, not for joining the "gank". 

Fighting the mighty empire, almost like rebels, sounds fun, as long as it is rewarded accordingly and their is a realistic chance to fight back. 

Or we could cut the BS and remove all the "limitations that don't fit in a sandbox", as rediii suggested and remove any uncapturable status from capitals and all safe zones to really allow a nation to completely delete another from the game. Would be very interesting to see how this would play out.

 

Personally I'm in favor of the option where the 3 or 4 major nations of the Caribbean are more or less PVE or starter nations that do not RVR and instead act as catch alls and fillers for PVP, PVE and participate in server generated battles (aka trafalgar style stuff).  Then introduce an "outlaw" faction where players who want to RVR and enjoy the sandbox life can join and enjoy the anything goes play style.  The big 3/4 main nations can't take or lose territory, have dynamic safe zones and allow crafting/trading/whatever.  Outlaw faction has clan vs clan based warfare.  

The problem with nations like GB / Spain / France is that 75%+ of the population never wants to do RVR and the entire population suffers from the steam roll effect, and then players flee the ship and join the steam roll....or quit.

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

And you're basically arguing to prove my point: which is that like in these anecdata you're quoting as "rules," players in Naval Action will have asymmetric skills, gear, and potential for success.  By imposing your special needs, game-y 1.5x BR rule you're ignoring the fact that some bad players may need a 10:1 advantage, not 3:1 in order to compete with the 1 dominant. So why not let them?

10:1 in NUMBERS not the same as 10:1 in BR

A 10:1 in numbers can be a 1:1 in BR

1:1 BR should be 50/50 balance no matter whatl, so 1.5x BR would work every time. If not that it's a game balance issue.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[staun]

12 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Prevent alts from setting contracts and you will have more meaningful RvR

It is not hard to implement.. @admin just needs to give an option that allows the port owner to select which clans are allowed to put up contracts in their ports (just like selecting which clans attend a port battle). Kick the alts out of the ports, you will have more players fighting for resources and more players teaming up to overthrow the zerg nations. 

Ore because only the big nations all sit on the ressources ppl give up. 

If we look on how ppl act with the current game play, what do you think has the biggest chance to happend.

- Ppl team up to beat the top dog.

. The top dogs join in a common front, so they can devide the ressources among them self and the rest just give up.

Like to hear you thughts abouth witch of those two will happend.

 

 

[staun]

4 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

10:1 in NUMBERS not the same as 10:1 in BR

A 10:1 in numbers can be a 1:1 in BR

1:1 BR should be 50/50 balance no matter what like irl, so 1.5x BR would work every time. If not that it's a game balance issue.

But it is not, and you know that.  Not as long skills, knowledge, wood and upgrades matter.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Wraith said:

But you're completely ignoring the fact that BR is almost meaningless as it relates to gear/skill variance and success.

Really it's mostly gear, take 3 noobs in light 6th with 1/3rd the strength against a vet in a heavier 5th rate and the noobs should win about 50% of the time

If not then the game is poorly balanced, you probably will have to do something about repairs/mods to get it right again.

3 noobs with 1/3rd the strength will fairly take out a vet, if repairs and mods are the same. (pure set up)

no need for a gank, unless balance isn't where it should be.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Why, because you think we should apply some anecdotal "rule" you read about in 7th grade biology to a game system just because you got your ass handed to you by ganks a few times?

Um no, this is biology/physics and you can observe it every day. If you think you can take on 3 people 1/3rd your strength in a fight you've never been in a real fight, those are dangerous odds even for someone trained.

I don't know why you keep calling it game-y. If repairs were limited then battles would immediately get closer to this natural equalibrium. The less mods the more reliant on skill you are. Go ahead and try to win a 2:1 odds with each person getting one repair and the same mods. REAL 2:1 odds BR not numbers, twice the guns and twice the health. That's how real life goes.

To win said odds would be extraordinary, not the norm like we see now (thanks to artificial gear gap, gold ships, powerful books and mods as well as multiple repairs to make mistakes with)

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Abram Svensson]

3 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Um no, this is biology and you can observe it every day. If you think you can take on 3 people 1/3rd your strength in a fight you've never been in a real fight, those are dangerous odds even for someone trained.

I don't know why you keep calling it game-y. If repairs were limited to 1  then it battles would immediately get closer to this natural equalibrium.

You always connect it with gear, but when 3 noobs fight 1 veteran they mostly lose to the lack of experience and game knowledge.

[Capn Rocko]

7 minutes ago, staun said:

Ore because only the big nations all sit on the ressources ppl give up. 

If we look on how ppl act with the current game play, what do you think has the biggest chance to happend.

- Ppl team up to beat the top dog.

. The top dogs join in a common front, so they can devide the ressources among them self and the rest just give up.

Like to hear you thughts abouth witch of those two will happend.

 

 

The question you should be asking is "what is the meaning of RvR?"

If the answer is to control resources, then you should agree that the system is flawed because clans currently do not control the resources that their ports produce. Anyone can create an alt and buy up the resources just as easy as the clan that controls the port. Its an insult to the clan that fought for the port and its a exploit to the players who are too lazy to fight for something they need/want. 

Regarding your question... in my experience, clans do team up to beat top dogs while (at the same time) the top dogs form allies to help them defend their ports. This is how war works and how content is created. Also in my experience, clans do divide the resources among themselves but also resell them at free ports for everyone to buy. As long as there is a profit to be made, resources will be resold to the highest bidder. I am just arguing that the clans should be the ones collecting this profit instead of the alts who are leeching off of other people's hard work. 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Abram Svensson said:

You always connect it with gear, but when 3 noobs fight 1 veteran they mostly lose to the lack of experience and game knowledge.

It is connected to gear because if you take the same 3 noobs and 1 veteran and put them on equal footing with limited repairs and mods then balance is much closer. It's still an even fight so they may lose, but it's closer to 50/50 where it should be.

Gear is not all of it but gear, wood, mods, books, and ship quality all matter and the more of those you add, the less skill matters.
Noobs are 2x better with all the gear, while vets are like 4x better, naturally.

Anyone saying 1.5x BR is gamey has forgotten what 2:1 odds actually are which is straight death 80% of the time, talking BR odds not number odds.
Mods and repairs have padded the gap so much that 2:1 isn't scary like it should be.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Capn Rocko]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Clearly you're having a tough time thinking this through because you're not articulating your point at all. Please state clearly what problem you think you're solving with a 1.5x BR restriction on battles (and how this relates at all to the point of this thread which is about RvR mechanics)?

Please don't fuel his fire. Slim derails every thread with off topic comments that hes posted a million times already. He doesn't even RvR.. he did his first hostility mission less than a month ago 

 

[Slim McSauce]

You just can't argue the point 

Not even all the noobs in the world can beat solid reasoning.

P.s that was my first hostility mission done....... by myself, lol. 
I was pretending to be a noob because noobs tend to have un-compromised intrinsic perspective, and you respond accordingly.
Like you thinking you can beat 3 people in a fist fight by yourself, some times ego's cloud our judgement and you need a fresh look to see what's going on.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[staun]

6 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

The question you should be asking is "what is the meaning of RvR?"

If the answer is to control resources, then you should agree that the system is flawed because clans currently do not control the resources that their ports produce. Anyone can create an alt and buy up the resources just as easy as the clan that controls the port. Its an insult to the clan that fought for the port and its a exploit to the players who are too lazy to fight for something they need/want. 

Regarding your question... in my experience, clans do team up to beat top dogs while (at the same time) the top dogs form allies to help them defend their ports. This is how war works and how content is created. Also in my experience, clans do divide the resources among themselves but also resell them at free ports for everyone to buy. As long as there is a profit to be made, resources will be resold to the highest bidder. I am just arguing that the clans should be the ones collecting this profit instead of the alts who are leeching off of other people's hard work. 

I don’t disagree with you that alts have a negative affect on the value on ports, not at all. But in the end what I want is a game that works and that players play.

You say it is an insult to the clan that took the port. But how many of the ports have been taken by only one clan and defended by one clan. To follow your logic should it then not be the players that have a Lord protector on that port, that should have acces to the ressources.

But think you get what you ask for. Admin have said there will be an RvR patch thats make own ports important. Really look forward to see how it will change the game. Personally I belive if you restrict it to the top clan/players, Well we end up with very few doing RvR. We see it allready now. Why do you think nations like US, DK, Dutch, Poland and partly Spain and France(Except kinky and men) have given up on RvR. My guess is that they know they can’t win. But as said think you get what you ask for, just don’t Complain if you end up with no one to fight. 

[Capn Rocko]

13 minutes ago, staun said:

I don’t disagree with you that alts have a negative affect on the value on ports, not at all. But in the end what I want is a game that works and that players play.

You say it is an insult to the clan that took the port. But how many of the ports have been taken by only one clan and defended by one clan. To follow your logic should it then not be the players that have a Lord protector on that port, that should have acces to the ressources.

But think you get what you ask for. Admin have said there will be an RvR patch thats make own ports important. Really look forward to see how it will change the game. Personally I belive if you restrict it to the top clan/players, Well we end up with very few doing RvR. We see it allready now. Why do you think nations like US, DK, Dutch, Poland and partly Spain and France(Except kinky and men) have given up on RvR. My guess is that they know they can’t win. But as said think you get what you ask for, just don’t Complain if you end up with no one to fight. 

I dont think that my suggestion is the "fix-all" for RvR but this was one of my major complaints when I was active in RvR activities. And to be fair, my suggestion of alt-limiting only affects 10% of the ports in the game, there is still the other 90% of ports that do not have valuable resources (maybe that will change with the trade system gets patched). 

Generally speaking, I just want to see more incentive to take part in RvR activities. Worthless ports, alt thieves, expensive ships, low population, ect. are all limiting factors of RvR activity. If you fix some of the limitations and add more incentives (like the RvR missions) its makes sense to me that more players will get involved in RvR. There are hundreds of ports in the game.. let the top dogs fight over the 10-20 valuable ports, that still gives plenty of room for everyone to participate (as long as there is incentive to fight for the other 90%)