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Teutonic

A Radical Crafting/Extraction Change

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TL;DR - I propose Labor Hours become "Real Hours" or "Real Time" in that we do away with Labor Hour generation in-game and instead setup functions where you want X to be built or extracted. So it'll take Y time to finish (i.e. I want a lynx to be built, it takes 32 minutes to finish a Lynx being built. so When I click "create," 32 minutes later a Lynx will be finished and I can then "finish the job" and bring it into my shipyard.)

How Crafting and Resource extraction is currently setup

In order to Craft or take resources out of a building you need to wait until you have the required amount of labor hours. Labor hours generate at a rate of roughly 42 labor hours fr every hour. I am proposing that we get rid of labor hours and in it's place we add "real time." This would very much be similar to how you craft ships and materials in Eve Online. Explained further below.

In Eve Online, there IS NOT a labor hour limit, but there IS a limit to how fast things can be created. Something as small as a Frigate in Eve Online could take 20 minutes to finish building, whereas a Super-Carrier or Titan can take 2-4 Months of real time to finish being produced. 

I propose that a player should be able extract resources from a building whenever they want and however much they want BUT it would take time to do so. similar to an assignment you may hire a contractor to re-model your kitchen or bathroom and they would come back saying "it should take about 2 weeks."

FOR BUILDINGS

every resources would have an "extraction rate" for example, for ever REAL hour spent in life, you would be able to extract 200 Iron Ore from an iron ore building. You may only have 1 Job running per Building you own (so you cannot have 5 different jobs of extracting Iron Ore from a building, they would do 1 job at a time).

1. You setup your Iron Ore Building

2. Through a game function, you request X amount of Iron Ore to be extracted from the Mine/Building. In my example of 200 Iron Ore is extracted for every 1 Hour of real time. a player can request the Mine to extract 3,000 units of Iron Ore, the game would prompt the player that in order to extract the 3,000 units of Iron Ore it would take 15 hours to fully extract. the player could adjust the amount of iron ore they want extracted, resulting in less time to wait or more time to wait.

3. Once the "contract" is accepted, the player waits until the job is finished. You could stop, or delete the job but you would not get an reimbursement, or partial extraction, you must wait the time of the job to finish.

4. Once the job is finished, you would "redeem" the job after paying the "labor costs" from the building, and the Iron Ore would jump into your warehouse.

Essentially what this would do in the game is allow folks to Request for "Long jobs" to keep on going if a player does not expect to be online. A player could say "Hey, I won't be able to be in-game for a couple days due to real-life circumstance, so let me create a job to extract some resources while I'm gone, and by the time I come back I should have X amount and be ready to craft a ship or mod once I get back home and playing Naval Action again."

FOR CRAFTING

You have resources as we do know, but instead of waiting for the right amount of Labor Hours to generate, you now wait an X amount of time for the construction of a mod, of Cannons, or a ship is created. This could be of varying times and I definitely don't have the answer for what times would be best, but i'll place some examples:
A. It could take 15 minutes to craft a Spanish Rig Refit
B. It takes 1 hour to craft 10 - 12 pd Cannons
C. It takes 5 hours to craft a surprise 

Crafting would be similar to how extracting resources would work, you'd wait for the job to finish and then be able to take the item or ship to your warehouse or docks once it is complete. There are a few differences though.

1. You can have as many Jobs created for different tasks. I.E = you could have 4 module jobs, 6 Cannon jobs, and 3 Ship crafting Jobs happening at once OR you can have a numbr of jobs happen at the same time up to a limit of (lets say) 10.

2. Labor Contracts could "speed up" the process. Before you start the job, there could be an option to "increase job productivity" and you would input X amount of labor contracts to speed up the job process. Not sure by how much, but for an example, each labor contract could decrease the time it takes for a job to finish by 5-10%.

3. Current player-owned port enhancements could further reduce the time it takes to make items or ships

 

I believe there is both pros and cons to this method.

Pros -
--Allows players to extract resources on their terms and on their schedule.
--Allows the player to know that they will get exactly X amount at a certain time.
--During extraction a player can be doing other activities in-game, such as sailing, trading, battling NPCs or players. 
--A player can have ships and equipment being built while they do other activities
 

Cons - 
-- European Trader would most likely have to go, be erased as a mechanic, or changes to also be a "Real time wait" - being able to instantly get resources now from the EU trader I feel is a "cheat" to get past the irritating Labor Hours limitation and it just covers up an issue with how crafting works.
--May make resource extraction and equipment/ship production feel "longer." It may make people feel that things take longer to make instead of being able to click "craft" and done. (we already sort of wait anyway)
--Further on players having to wait, it may make lineships take a long time to finish. it could be that a 2nd rate "job" would take 10 days to fully complete.
--It is possibly a waste of Dev time to convert to this method as overall it doesn't make crafting "faster" it just changes the method of how materials and ships are crafted. I.E. = Now we wait for labor hours and then craft, this method would be that we craft and then wait for the job to finish.

 

Overall my goal of this suggestion was considering those who believe the Labor Hour generation limits crafting in a negative way as well as players considering Labor Hours to be "more useful" when used in one way instead of another. I want to promote the ability to not be limited to a particular "resource" that forcefully limits players from building or crafting certain things. Instead (and I know it may be ironic) I am promoting the ability for a player to be delayed (or not delayed) by time BUT be able to crafting anything they want on any day with the only limitation being the resources they have in their warehouse.

My other goal was to "level the crafting playing field" and promote players who play more casually or "not everyday" to be able to run extraction or crafting jobs and not feel like they are "wasting" valuable labor hour generations. if someone hasn't played in 5 days, and we assume they are level 50 crafting, they have "lost" a possible 3,000 labor hours to work with, whereas someone who has played everyday for 5 days is ahead of that plays by roughly 3,000 labor hours. Maybe that is alright in some people's eyes, but I believe it creates a growing gap between these players and then is further exaggerated when a "casual players" loses a ship versus a hardcore everyday player. 

Edited by Teutonic
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16 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

When I click "create," 32 minutes later a Lynx will be finished and

This has been discussed: Server hardware limitations makes that hard. The database would have to keep track of everyone's little and big timers. They can do this in EVE because they have lol combat there. In NA the server has to have resources free to keep track of every single shot of ball. "Maybe in the future" was the last comment on that issue I saw.

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26 minutes ago, jodgi said:

This has been discussed: Server hardware limitations makes that hard. The database would have to keep track of everyone's little and big timers. They can do this in EVE because they have lol combat there. In NA the server has to have resources free to keep track of every single shot of ball. "Maybe in the future" was the last comment on that issue I saw.

I find Eve's combat to be fine and it's focus is different - but that's another story.

 

I suppose database/server limitations would play a part in not allowing this type of method to work. If we weren't limited in software/database/server limitations, would this be more preferable?

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19 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

would this be more preferable?

I know there are others that want this and they might find this topic. I think those that want first rates to be time consuming to craft like the EVE approach.

I like frigate fights and want as little to do with crafting as possible, so I'm not the best audience for this.

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Crafting is in a good state I feel. Wait to see how econ patch plays out before suggesting a complete reworking from the ground up... Considering the development cycles needed, is the game going to have a higher fun or marketing capability from this change to justify the cost? I don’t think this is a bad idea... I just don’t think it’s realist for this game, and it’s goals.

 

Also labour hours in its current state make people want to log in so they don’t go to waste. A login causes players to play and keeps them active to possibly purchase a DLC, which generates income. Click and walk away is bad for a smaller game I feel.

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1 hour ago, Phaserburn said:

Crafting is in a good state I feel.

On the regular server, sure.  Crafting on the Testbed server is very painful with the change to provisions.  I hope that isn't a preview of the future.

 

Edited by Barbancourt

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2 hours ago, jodgi said:

This has been discussed: Server hardware limitations makes that hard. The database would have to keep track of everyone's little and big timers. They can do this in EVE because they have lol combat there. In NA the server has to have resources free to keep track of every single shot of ball. "Maybe in the future" was the last comment on that issue I saw.

its already possible but we are not sure about those timers at this stage.
Whats the point except to delay the player? We are actually thinking of removing the LH limits completely (remove free hours - remove ceilings - if you have gold doubloons - you can buy workforce).

But timers are now possible. 5-10 per player will be manageable. 

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2 minutes ago, admin said:

its already possible

Look at that, @Teutonic

3 minutes ago, admin said:

Whats the point except to delay the player?

Some posters have turned to timers as a way to make first rates rare, "a clan effort" and all that jazz. I don't feel strongly on this issue.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

its already possible but we are not sure about those timers at this stage.
Whats the point except to delay the player? We are actually thinking of removing the LH limits completely (remove free hours - remove ceilings - if you have gold doubloons - you can buy workforce).

But timers are now possible. 5-10 per player will be manageable. 

 

55 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Look at that, @Teutonic

Some posters have turned to timers as a way to make first rates rare, "a clan effort" and all that jazz. I don't feel strongly on this issue.

Well I certainly won't lie that completely doing away with LH limits and time "delay" and instead using doubloons would be something I enjoy. I guess I thought we wouldn't be able to get to a point like that. I have been proven wrong.

so I'll say this:

If you are thinking of removing LH limits to free up crafting to be "unlimited" and the only limitation is how many doubloons you have to cover the cost of the workforce to make the ship or resource or whatever. I'm ALL for it. You need more doubloons? sink some ships, do some missions, buy them from other players.

If timers are possible and we don't want to go the "unlimited" route, then I am also in favor of it.

I won't deny that making 1st rates "clan efforts" Is not what I had in mind. I feel a clan should be able to build more of them and faster then a solo player, but I don't believe a solo player shouldn't be able to build them themselves. I'm on the side of "Everyone should be able to build everything, you just need the resources to do it."

Edited by Teutonic

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4 hours ago, Teutonic said:

TL;DR - I propose Labor Hours become "Real Hours" or "Real Time" in that we do away with Labor Hour generation in-game and instead setup functions where you want X to be built or extracted. So it'll take Y time to finish (i.e. I want a lynx to be built, it takes 32 minutes to finish a Lynx being built. so When I click "create," 32 minutes later a Lynx will be finished and I can then "finish the job" and bring it into my shipyard.)

Pros -
--Allows players to extract resources on their terms and on their schedule.
--Allows the player to know that they will get exactly X amount at a certain time.
--During extraction a player can be doing other activities in-game, such as sailing, trading, battling NPCs or players. 
--A player can have ships and equipment being built while they do other activities

I don't understand the point. Even if you don't play everyday, you simple harvest your resources when you do play. A full building full of materials is enough to produce any particular ship you want. The 3rd and 4th items don't make much sense to me, in either scenario time is dedicated to setting up these extraction or crafting variables, you can pay on the front end or back end, but either way the ships components have to be brought together and created, or the resources pulled from the buildings and sailed to your shipyard.

Labor hours had more value before labor contracts and are virtually worthless with combat marks for labor contracts, so if you don't use your hours, no big deal, simply use some contracts and you're all set. 5000 labor hours for around 450k gold in the current economy.

Admin's suggestion of removing hours entirely is definitely optimal, imo.

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2 hours ago, admin said:

We are actually thinking of removing the LH limits completely (remove free hours - remove ceilings - if you have gold doubloons - you can buy workforce).

This is beneficial as labor hours are one place where alts provide rather too much leverage in the economy vs single-account players.

It does need to have some sort of throttling, however.  Production facilities can efficiently handle only so many people in a process flow.  And a cities only have only so many people.  No limits at all might be an inflation mechanic.

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2 hours ago, Rabman said:

I don't understand the point. Even if you don't play everyday, you simple harvest your resources when you do play. A full building full of materials is enough to produce any particular ship you want. The 3rd and 4th items don't make much sense to me, in either scenario time is dedicated to setting up these extraction or crafting variables, you can pay on the front end or back end, but either way the ships components have to be brought together and created, or the resources pulled from the buildings and sailed to your shipyard.

Labor hours had more value before labor contracts and are virtually worthless with combat marks for labor contracts, so if you don't use your hours, no big deal, simply use some contracts and you're all set. 5000 labor hours for around 450k gold in the current economy.

Admin's suggestion of removing hours entirely is definitely optimal, imo.

I admit my suggestion wasn't optimal, I suppose it was just a different way in how someone goes about crafting. instead of waiting and then crafting, you'd craft and then wait. I just feel the process would be more smooth, but it could take a lot of time to change it for not much benefit.

As the Admin said - removing hours is a better outcome than I had hoped for and would definitely take it any day of the week.

2 hours ago, John Jacob Astor said:

This is beneficial as labor hours are one place where alts provide rather too much leverage in the economy vs single-account players.

It does need to have some sort of throttling, however.  Production facilities can efficiently handle only so many people in a process flow.  And a cities only have only so many people.  No limits at all might be an inflation mechanic.

It could and would certainly help to "fight" alts. Your limiting factor would be doubloons (essentially combat marks...right?) so you'd have to go out and farm them from sinking AI or completing missions. I only know of a few people who can effective multi-box and even then it would become tedious.

I think doubloons would be you "throttling." In truth there may be some inflation, or deflation but ultimately you'd need doubloons to continue crafting, which either means buying from players who PvE a lot (or PvP) or doing it yourself which does take time. I firmly believe giving the players the options to take time to "farm" doubloons, or purchase from others is a better solution than the current Labor Hour limitations. As such, with materials going away, I'm sure we'd have a re-balance of prices again.

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If this happens, the number of outposts and building should be increased too.... in order to fully remove the need for an alt. Let dlc be half the possible increase.... and the other half ingame purchaseable

Edited by Phaserburn

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11 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I admit my suggestion wasn't optimal, I suppose it was just a different way in how someone goes about crafting. instead of waiting and then crafting, you'd craft and then wait. I just feel the process would be more smooth, but it could take a lot of time to change it for not much benefit.

As the Admin said - removing hours is a better outcome than I had hoped for and would definitely take it any day of the week.

It could and would certainly help to "fight" alts. Your limiting factor would be doubloons (essentially combat marks...right?) so you'd have to go out and farm them from sinking AI or completing missions. I only know of a few people who can effective multi-box and even then it would become tedious.

I think doubloons would be you "throttling." In truth there may be some inflation, or deflation but ultimately you'd need doubloons to continue crafting, which either means buying from players who PvE a lot (or PvP) or doing it yourself which does take time. I firmly believe giving the players the options to take time to "farm" doubloons, or purchase from others is a better solution than the current Labor Hour limitations. As such, with materials going away, I'm sure we'd have a re-balance of prices again.

In general I am in agreement with this.

As it happens I am not anti-alt.  I just want a bit more level playing field.  I also am not actually opposed to your original suggestion.  I don't have any context for it having never played EVE.

My comment about throttling has to do with my reservation about having multiple mediums of exchange, which is currently what we have.  Gold and various forms of marks are used for purchase.  This is simplified somewhat in the coming economy but it still remains.  I am not sure relying on the money supply to limit labor in the coming economy is a good idea. 

Mixed exchange mechanisms are very, very easy to unbalance.  In the late Roman empire the value of the gold solidus was well anchored but nothing else was.  If you were stuck in any of the other coinage (which was the case for shopkeepers and laborers) you were pretty much screwed.

Edited by John Jacob Astor
clarification.

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On 9/28/2018 at 2:35 PM, admin said:

Whats the point except to delay the player? We are actually thinking of removing the LH limits completely (remove free hours - remove ceilings - if you have gold doubloons - you can buy workforce).

@admin, so a follow-question that might speak to my reservation.

What would be the mechanism for converting Reals into Doubloons?  And what are the other possible ways Doubloons are generated?

Specifically, how would a merchant acquire Doubloons to buy labor to extract production resources and build ships?

Edited by John Jacob Astor
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On 9/28/2018 at 11:35 PM, admin said:

We are actually thinking of removing the LH limits completely (remove free hours - remove ceilings - if you have gold doubloons - you can buy workforce).

A limited amount of labour/production per day is what would make players trade and interact with each other. Current economy would be all about trading labour, unless you drastically change and restrict the amount of different goods a player is allowed to craft and produce. (More professions would be a very good thing in general)

And still this wouldnt work... The great thing about limited labour/production capacity is that everyone has similar power and everyone can be important. No matter how rich you are, how casual you are, how much you grind, and how new you are. Your are important for others, and others always remain important for you. It should be more than obvious what happens without such limits. And we saw it to some extend, just that eco was broken already when you introduced labour for marks. Think about what happens when single players are able to supply a whole nation, and why this is incredibly bad game design.

Also it is independent from currency inflation, that otherwise directly makes materials and ships redundant. And currency is difficult to balance. Labour balancing is much easier, because you can define accurately the amount that players generate.

Maybe you can elaborate what your alternative plan is for economy, maybe its genius... But if you want to make the current eco idea work, as a very first step labour contracts for marks/in general would need to be removed again.

 

On 9/28/2018 at 11:35 PM, admin said:

Whats the point except to delay the player?

An important difference (especially for you) is that with production over time players need to log in more often to get the maximum out of their production capacity, instead of just logging in one time each two days. For the player this would mean that they need to manage production and plan for the future. Thats fun, adds depth and difficulty.

Sure this wouldnt bring those players out to the sea directly, but it increases the probability that they would join someone asking for help, or that they decide to keep playing.

Besides i would argue for the player it "feels" better and more real to craft something over time.

 

On 9/29/2018 at 3:59 AM, Teutonic said:

It could and would certainly help to "fight" alts. Your limiting factor would be doubloons (essentially combat marks...right?) so you'd have to go out and farm them from sinking AI or completing missions. I only know of a few people who can effective multi-box and even then it would become tedious.

When the problem is that alts provide economic advantages, removing economy is not a solution... Economy needs players to be limited by production capacity and professions. Therefore there most likely isnt a way to fight eco alts. Cause of the problem is that alts got accepted as part of an economic game, and thats now one of the downsides we have to live with. I know you dont want to remove anything, but making something redundant is basically the same, and even worse cause it eats resources and might be annoying.

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On 9/29/2018 at 4:14 PM, John Jacob Astor said:

@admin, so a follow-question that might speak to my reservation.

What would be the mechanism for converting Reals into Doubloons?  And what are the other possible ways Doubloons are generated?

Specifically, how would a merchant acquire Doubloons to buy labor to extract production resources and build ships?

@admin, here is why my question matters, and what is at the root of my reservations about having more than one medium of exchange.

At present, the purchase of labor contracts yields a production cost for stone block that frequently approaches the Euro Trader cost.  Stone is the worst of them but running the math out on other production resources shows meager possible returns.  The best of them are well below that of dropped trade goods.  Which means that to participate in the player-to-player economy you have to ignore the labor hours.  Which works until you run out of hours and have to compete against any Alts in the same market sector.

If a merchant has to buy Doubloons, this prices the commodities above where where a reasonable profit can be made the with Euro Trader mechanic in place.  And this assumes that Doubloons are even available for sale.  In the present economy marks are only consistently available in a couple of the free ports.

Are you also planning to add some sort of fixed exchange mechanism (Reals to Doubloons) and dump the Euro Trader?  Is this is what was intended when you announced the possibility of a mint?

If so, this might actually work.  Building counts and production volumes then govern the supply of resources.  This would scale up or down with the number of players in the game, and would price-responsive to player demand.

Edited by John Jacob Astor
clarification

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