Notoriety System Feedback Please

[Duncan McFail]

As I'd mentioned in another suggestion post I'd like to see a fame system introduced into the game. I'd thought about it for awhile and was having problems with it conflicting with the xp system. Then I thought why not merge the two. A fame or notoriety system is one that gives points or rank for pvp dependent on how much rank or points the enemy you killed has and can go up or down dependant on performance. It can be anything from a status symbol to unlocks in a pvp shop. Standard XP systems like the one we have give you levels to attain based on killing said enemy that gives you x xp plus bonuses for damage, etc. Usually these 2 ranks would be separate. But in a game like this what if you combined the two into a new xp progression system. Actually there's probably games out there that have done this, but for this game it makes perfect sense(at least to me).

The biggest thing this system does is create risk vs reward. If you kill most likely you move up. If you die most likely you move down. It also accounts for fairness of a fight and level of the opposition. You gain more points defeating enemies with higher BR and higher notoriety and vice versa. You bonus or penalty depends on BR difference and notoriety difference. Your crew is based off of your notoriety amount. If you lose an actual rank you won't be able to command a ship of that notoriety level. I have condensed the levels so there is constant benefits. No more wait till you hit post captain to properly man a Constitution. Level's are +10 crew each.

I figured I could describe this system, but players will make up their minds as soon as they see loss can happen. Remember the other side of the coin. They face loss as well. Even more so if you're out numbered and out gunned. Sometimes killing one pursuer can put you in the positive column for that fight. Some might think it's not fair for new guys. Anyone below Post Captain(which I have set at 350 crew) doesn't lose crew, rewards, or the ability to command a ship below that level. They can lose points, but easy to make up with AI and when's the last time you got killed by AI. If people are more keen to PvE no problem. All AI have minimum notoriety for the crew level they use, so you can level up off of them just fine. Although PvP is double points. In addition you want equal BR or better.

As I said before most people have already made up their mind, so I came went a step further and put a system down on google sheets for people to play with and see actual numbers. You just have to be knowledgeable of BR and crew of the ships. If you want to see numbers as the killer plug them in. Reverse them for the opposite results so you can see risk vs reward. There's enough space for 25 v 25. Remember pvp points is double the listed amount. If a player has an AI fleet it's added into the total BR and notoriety creating a bigger loss for the player if they die. And the loot spins are to help keep interest of new players past the first few levels. Hover over the loot spin print and click on the link above to try your luck. Also I even though I have only up till 1,500 crew showing there is no cap. 

The link is https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oPpbLK0QuTivUlvTsj3MKiu07Do-UWYHGl7XUaS_NXg/edit?usp=sharing

Please inform me of any problems. More importantly any feedback or thoughts. I'd like to hear pros and cons of how this would impact this game by the pros(you). Thanks.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Duncan McFail
changed link

[Ned Low]

What will happen if I farm my 2nd Alt in pvp. The only way for this to work is make it PvE only. Where you have to go kill fleets and do missions around enemy ports etc.. It has to be a long term commitment with end rewards. 

For pvp we need only Leader-boards 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Ned Low

[Liq]

36 minutes ago, Ned Low said:

What will happen if I farm my 2nd Alt in pvp. The only way for this to work is make it PvE only. Where you have to go kill fleets and do missions around enemy ports etc.. It has to be a long term commitment with end rewards. 

For pvp we need only Leader-boards 

This reputation system has been suggested several times. I especially liked the one by @Zooloo, here

This also suggests that by sinking someone, you gain reputation points but also at the same time the enemy player you sank looses points. The bigger the gap between your reputation rank and your opponents, the less points you will earn. This should prevent alt farming in masses.

Don't think a reputation system based on PvE on a PvP server is a good idea. PvE is nice to get to know the game, but once you're done levelling they become kinda dull and very repetetive, as AI is extremely predictable.

[Duncan McFail]

There's no way to alt farm as your alt loses equal amount of points you gain. Zooloo's system is an actual fame sytem. This is a hybrid to replace the current xp system completely. If you want to get past 4th rates the easiest way becomes pvp with the lack of rated ships on the open world.

[Ned Low]

3 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

There's no way to alt farm as your alt loses equal amount of points you gain. Zooloo's system is an actual fame sytem. This is a hybrid to replace the current xp system completely. If you want to get past 4th rates the easiest way becomes pvp with the lack of rated ships on the open world.

What do you mean? If my alt is only Econ guy, then I would not care about his points anyway while accumulating free ones on my main alt.

[Duncan McFail]

7 hours ago, Ned Low said:

What do you mean? If my alt is only Econ guy, then I would not care about his points anyway while accumulating free ones on my main alt.

Are you guys able to use the google sheets I linked? 

You start at 200 notoriety and so does your alt. If you kill him 4 times you go up to 352 and he goes down to 48. 352 is one rank up so 50 crew. As you kill him he becomes worth less and less until he hit's the minimum which is 10 points(20 points for pvp). If you ever wanted to put that alt into anything with more crew than a privateer you'd have to re earn those 152 points just to get back to the starting amount. Please tell me if you're able to use the sheet. Thanks.

[Duncan McFail]

Need moar feedback+please tell me if sheets link is working. Thanks.

[Farrago]

9 hours ago, Duncan McFail said:

Need moar feedback+please tell me if sheets link is working. Thanks.

Thanks for the hard work you've put in to this. The link works but one can not plug in test numbers without sending you an edit request or simply making a copy. I made a copy and tried some numbers. I do like the way XP/Reputation is being calculated and rises and falls. It may piss a lot of folks off to see their XP go down however but your calculations seem fair. Still, what would those numbers mean beyond a different way to calculate rank/XP/fame? If I see a RA with a fame of 183,600 what does that tell me. Is he a crappy Read Admiral about to drop lower or is he a new Rear Admiral who has risen in fame faster than any in the history of the navy?

I've thought we needed a reputation system for a long time in game but more of one where you can tell if a player has been trustworthy, valuable in a fight, dangerous, etc. Yelp reviews of Captains. LOL Yes, there would be misinformation, griefing, jerk statements, rumors, etc but that would have been real life.

"I've sailed with Black Beard for years and he's actually a real teddy bear."

"Don't turn your back on him!"

"He's vulnerable to demasting."

"If he is in a Surprise, RUN!"

I think the game seriously needs a rumor mill / wanted posters / tavern gossip. I would like it in game but in the meantime, I just built a bulletin board to serve that purpose. Hopefully after the wipe folks will use it. "Scuttlebutt from the Harbor Master" http://scuttlebutt.world

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

On 5/15/2017 at 6:20 AM, Ned Low said:

What will happen if I farm my 2nd Alt in pvp. The only way for this to work is make it PvE only. Where you have to go kill fleets and do missions around enemy ports etc.. It has to be a long term commitment with end rewards. 

For pvp we need only Leader-boards 

Leader boards can be abused too, every heard of baby seal clubbing to pad your stats?   Oh and if your using you alts to pad your number that is against the rules and if you get caught and/or reported simply demote both chars to zero xp.   That will stop folks fast in the tracks for alt farming.  Not to mention you can't get any rewards for an hour every time you kill them.  That pretty easy for some one to check if your rep goes way up fast and it's the same guy your killing over and over your abusing the system.

On 5/15/2017 at 7:48 AM, Ned Low said:

What do you mean? If my alt is only Econ guy, then I would not care about his points anyway while accumulating free ones on my main alt.

This is why I think a reputation system would be better.   Make one for Naval Actions and one for trade.  Your econ char has to get out and do stuff to get trade reputation or he won't be able to trade and do things.  If they are not in the same nation than they can't trade with each other specially if you have a bad standing with that nation.   It locks out alt farming your econ alts in other nations.   Why would any one trade with some one known for sinking ships in there own nation?

@Duncan McFail great work man you must be getting bored waiting on this patch, but I really think we need to stop trying to change current stuff until we get all the mechanics worked out, though I do think we need a reputation system in game between nations and players.  This would be a good way to replace the alliance system and make it more about the player and Clans (clans can have there own reputation too).  That way you can some US players that want to be carebears with there British Buddies and not fight each other.  Or you can have a few clans in US that hate the Brits and want to fight them.  There reputation will allow them to war with the other nation even though some players might not want to.  Thoughts that don't want to can keep good trade standings with the other nation to use there ports (without smuggler flag but still only in trader ships) for trading.  If you have a bad reputation with a nation the smuggler flag will allow you to trade in those ports.  Though if you have the smuggler flag on your basically should be treated as a pirate and can be attacked by any one.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Sir Texas Sir

[Duncan McFail]

6 hours ago, Farrago said:

Thanks for the hard work you've put in to this. The link works but one can not plug in test numbers without sending you an edit request or simply making a copy. I made a copy and tried some numbers. I do like the way XP/Reputation is being calculated and rises and falls. It may piss a lot of folks off to see their XP go down however but your calculations seem fair. Still, what would those numbers mean beyond a different way to calculate rank/XP/fame? If I see a RA with a fame of 183,600 what does that tell me. Is he a crappy Read Admiral about to drop lower or is he a new Rear Admiral who has risen in fame faster than any in the history of the navy?

Thanks for the compliment and thanks for the feedback on the link. I think I found the problem and fixed it. Most players don't get killed to much after they get the hang of the game. Getting jumped by superior numbers/players will result in minimal loss. The rank won't tell you everything about a player, but it will be pretty tough to make it to RA and keep it if you're crappy. The types of people who would make it to the high ranks first will be the guys that can kill 2 average players in equal ships, the guys that can kill a connie in a surprise, or the guys that can get jumped by six ships and still manage to kill 2 before going down.

 

4 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Leader boards can be abused too, every heard of baby seal clubbing to pad your stats?   Oh and if your using you alts to pad your number that is against the rules and if you get caught and/or reported simply demote both chars to zero xp.   That will stop folks fast in the tracks for alt farming.  Not to mention you can't get any rewards for an hour every time you kill them.  That pretty easy for some one to check if your rep goes way up fast and it's the same guy your killing over and over your abusing the system.

That is what I like most about this system is it can't be exploited that I can see. They would still need the recently killed status, but only for pvp mark gain. The most people can do is transfer their fame off to another player by letting them kill you.

[Hethwill]

 

 

[Farrago]

16 hours ago, Duncan McFail said:

or the guys that can get jumped by six ships and still manage to kill 2 before going down

Which brings up a very important point...

Until the Devs change their mind, if you lose a battle (sink before the last enemy sinks or have to retreat) no matter how impressive you were sinking 6 ships while in your basic cutter before the 7th gets you, you get NOTHING.

I used the word "until" because I think this policy will have to change or newbies will abandon the game like crazy as they realize they have so little chance of ever advancing without so many hours of achieving nothing.

Think of all the times you've fought hard but ultimately had to retreat..,

Edited May 17, 2017 by Farrago

[Duncan McFail]

@The Red Duke I know there has been plenty of suggestions in the past. I've read up on all of them. They're all suggestions and in addition to the xp/rank system. This is to replace the xp system. This system is also a functional system. It's not just a suggestion of something I'd like to see the devs put together and make work. I've taken the time to work through the issues of balance, make it efficient, and weed out all exploits.

6 hours ago, Farrago said:

Until the Devs change their mind, if you lose a battle (sink before the last enemy sinks or have to retreat) no matter how impressive you were sinking 6 ships while in your basic cutter before the 7th gets you, you get NOTHING.

This is one of the many current mechanics that this system would fix. 3 guys jump you. Let's say they're all in Connie's with minimum fame level to use them with full crew. You take down 2 of the 3 before going down. Currently it's a loss and you get squat. With my system you would end up getting 1,125 per Connie killed so 2,250 total. That takes you up 2 levels giving you access to 470 total crew. The guy who killed you gets 125 which take him up only 1/8th of the way to the next level. The 2 guys who died each lose 1,125 taking them down 2 levels to 430 total crew. Although they're only 225 points off getting back up to 440 total crew.

I didn't put pros/cons in the title because one mans pro is another mans con in this system. All were pros to me with each example I could come up with.

• As example above sometimes you can come out on top even if you lose. Regardless, you get rewarded for kills even if you die.
• There's no cap. Currently you make rear admiral and there's no point. With this system the sky's the limit.
• It will be tougher to maintain higher fame though. The higher fame you have the more you risk to lose.
• It's not always the best to go in the biggest ship possible. Your loss is based on your ships BR.
• Attacking someone with higher fame gives you a bigger bonus if you can take him out. Fame difference is accounted for.
• Attacking someone with superior numbers can give you a lower bonus. BR difference is also calculated.
• BR difference includes AI. Random AI that get dragged into battle will make you worth more, but won't hurt your rep if they die.
• AI fleet will hurt your rep if they die. On the other hand they can help your rep if they score kills.
• After 350 crew you actually lose all bonuses if you rank down. So getting killed too much can result in losing enough fame to not be able to captain bigger ships.
• Impossible to game the system. Equal gain to loss takes care of that.
• Leveling up is quickest through pvp, taking on higher br targets, and killing ships above your level.
• The system is much more friendly with constant easier gains of 10 crew each. This will give more opportunity to use ships that had crew requirements far off the current rank ups.
• There's cool loot spin wheels at lower levels to be more new player friendly.
• With no limit on fame there can be rewards  that are off the charts I have listed. Like custom self created titles (approved by devs or mods of course).
• This system helps make you unique and gives a real sense of achievement.

[Farrago]

You've convinced me. I'd still like to see a reputation system that goes beyond numbers but I think your system of ranking and XP sound excellent. As far as I know, Devs have never released how they compute XP????

[Duncan McFail]

I'm still waiting for that @admin guy to come through and trash the system though. Although I don't think he wanders into the suggestion section often. Too much time needed calming angry people in patch notes section.

[Duncan McFail]

I added in mark gain and gold gain. So x2 for pvp and what it says for pve just like fame gain/loss. I felt it was kinda messed up to take marks or gold from people for losses so it is open to being exploited. But like I said in a previous post here we would still need the 1 hour recently killed timer that affects mark and gold gain only.

[Skully]

At a glance I see two problems:

1. A relative point system without sinks and faucets will leave the whole player base at average level.
2. Tying penalties to a loss leads to the tidal wave problem. Instead of bringing back balance, it overpowers the victor.

On 5/15/2017 at 1:02 PM, Duncan McFail said:

If you lose an actual rank you won't be able to command a ship of that notoriety level.

The relative point system would make perfect sense for a leaderboard though. (Yeah, yeah, paints and all...)

[Slim McSauce]

I'd like to see a leaderboard for your clan only. Anything else promotes stat padding for clout

[Duncan McFail]

On 7/26/2017 at 2:59 AM, Skully said:

At a glance I see two problems:

1. A relative point system without sinks and faucets will leave the whole player base at average level.
2. Tying penalties to a loss leads to the tidal wave problem. Instead of bringing back balance, it overpowers the victor.

The relative point system would make perfect sense for a leaderboard though. (Yeah, yeah, paints and all...)

The sinks/faucets would be AI kills. Even if you lose a level or 2 the levels are short gap levels with 10 crew each. Remember this is a xp/notoriety system. 5th rates and below don't drop down gained ranks, but they do have to work harder to get back to even and start moving forward if they died a bunch. For pvp the highly skilled players will rise to the top. The gankers will rise slowly. The pver's will even have a quicker grind. How often does someone die to the AI.

[Skully]

On 8/17/2017 at 8:44 AM, Duncan McFail said:

The sinks/faucets would be AI kills.

I would like to see if we can find means to entice folks sailing into any kind of PvP.

Having penalties at the end which are offset by PvE might just bring us back to the current situation.

On 8/17/2017 at 8:44 AM, Duncan McFail said:

How often does someone die to the AI.

Ehr... I take the fifth. 

[Duncan McFail]

19 hours ago, Skully said:

Having penalties at the end which are offset by PvE might just bring us back to the current situation.

It doesn't necessarily mean you would have to PvE, but if someone is so bad at PvP that they just can't get a kill then they could PvE to rank up. Same options to level and this system is a much faster rise up than the current system. And it doesn't have a cap, so players are always able to move forward. It makes more sense with actual examples though. 

Let's say there's a 2 players in Surprises. One can barely crew one the other can crew a L'Ocean. If the newer player wins he'll go up one rank from crewing 240 to 250 and the experienced player drops down to 1090 crew. Only because the experienced player was barely at the level to crew 1100 did he drop. It would take 4 more of the same loss to drop down from 1090 to 1080. The other way around if the newer player lost he would drop down only because he was barely at 240 crew. His loss would be 26 points, but his gain could be 534. This is showing how this system puts a number on skill. Even though they're in the same ship they have a different level of skill. 

If there's a situation like you have in the topic you linked assuming Lone was in another surprise then you would stand to get 314 notoriety if you killed just one of those rear admiral mercs. On the other hand you stood to lose 62 if you died. Although neither way would really have huge impacts you can see the lesser returns of ganking. Would have been much worse with some bigger ships on the other side or without Lone Wolf in there.

[Skully]

Okay, I see it now. It does require some good advertisement to inform rookies that their loss is minor. So the risk is actually at the end of the high level captain.

Still would need something to "pay" the gankee for entertainment though.