Objectives, why they matter, and how they are used to make great games:

[Yar Matey]

 

I put a lot of thought into this over the last few months as to why this games seems to be in a stagnant and mostly declining state. While many have speculated that it was ganking, battle timers, fine woods, ect...I have come to a much different conclusion. I believe that the fundamental flaw with this game right now is due to the lack of what I will label Objective Based PvP. It is my hope that the developers read this and hopefully use this as a guideline to make a great game. It is also my hope that people on these forums will be constructive in helping make this game a fantastic game that will want all of us coming back for more as well as bring thousands of new players into this game.

Firstly, let's look at a few highly successful PvP oriented games and how objectives are used to make the games dynamic and interesting.  

 

1. Counter Strike:  The objective in this game is quite simple Plant the bomb and make sure it blows up or defuse the bomb or kill all the terrorists if you are the counter terrorists.  Or Rescue the hostages if you are counter terrorist.

2. War Thunder:  For tanks it is to capture a point on the map, for planes it is to bomb the base, or destroy the ground units or ships.  

3. World of Tanks:  Very similar to War Thunder tanks, capture the enemy zone.  

4. Team Fortress:  Team fortress has many different objective types, but the one that comes to mind right off the top of my head is the push the cart on a set of tracks to a specific location.

 

I am sure you can think of many more examples, probably better ones than I listed here, but the point still stands!  Objectives are essential to creating a dynamic and interesting game.    

 

Now before anyone starts spouting about how these games are arena based arcade type games, that does not mean that the simple rules of objective based PvP cannot apply to Naval Action, and I would argue that it is absolutely key and necessary to its success because, let's face it, Naval Action is forming into a mostly PvP oriented game with almost no PvP going on at all.

I believe the fundamental flaw or problem with this game right now is it lacks dynamic objectives centered around PvP.  It is my hope by creating this thread that other players who love this game will come up with ideas centered around giving this game Objective based PvP.  

Here are some ideas of objective based PvP that will make for interesting and dynamic PvP in our most beloved age of sail game:

1. Trader Escort Missions:  It's simple, team 1 has a fleet of ships and 1 trade ship that is carrying cargo from point A to point B.  Team 2 is a fleet of warships trying to destroy the trade ship.  The instanced battle starts with Team 1 about a half hour sail away from port (the destination of the cargo) and the trader ship has 1 hour and 30 minutes to get to that destination.  The enemy warships goal is to destroy  or capture the trader ship preventing the cargo from getting to its destination.  There can be different levels associated with the ship type:

   1. Shallow water, any shallow water trade ship is allowed to carry the cargo (traders lynx, traders cutter, traders snow, ect..)  and the fleet of warships is composed of any shallow water ship in the game

   2. Deep Water, Le gros Ventre shallow water as well as 5th-3rd rates allowed for both teams

   3. Deep Water 2, Indiaman only, any ships allowed from shallow water to first rates.

2. Blockade Missions:  Its simple, Team 1 stays within a certain area and cannot leave and Team 2 tries to push Team 1 out of the area by either sinking or capturing or forcing them to flee out of the Blockade area.  I envision this being mostly a lineship Battle

3. Raiding Missions:  Any frigate type ship goes into port (in a battle instance) does a boarding action against the port, after winning the boarding action, cargo is obtained, and then the frigate tries to escape the battle.  Enemy team tries to stop the frigate from getting into port and winning the boarding action.  If that fails, then sink or capture the ship before it leaves the instance.  (this would be a great feature for Pirates in this game)

4. Destroy the Towers Missions: Team 1 brings 1-3 mortar brigs with a fleet of warships to protect the mortar brigs and tries to destroy the towers on the land, and team 2 tries to stop them from destroying the towers. This would be a fantastic way to both build up hostility AND make capturing the port easier in a port battle.

So the next question is, how do we add this so called "Objective Based PvP" to the game.  Well there are 2 ways.  We have the admiralty event where we all sail out to a location and join.  Or, the more dynamic and interesting approach, a group of players decide to sail over to a port and create their own content.  Players in a nation decide that they want to form a blockade around an enemy port to generate hostility, so they build a fleet and sail over to the port and simply create a blockade and wait for the enemy to show up to challenge them.  Same goes for raids or destroy the tower missions.  Trader escort missions can be done through the admiralty event system we have in place now.  

In conclusion, objective based PvP will make for interesting and fun game play and it can be tied to hostility while at the same time generating dynamic and interesting PvP.  I believe that the ideas I outlined above will make for some interesting fleet makeups as people try to figure out the best fleets to use to escort the trader ship to the port missions. I believe that we will see fleets made up of surprises, constitutions with different build setups. We will have people building unique and different trade ship setups, be it tanky to withstand lots of damage or fast to get to the port as fast as possible. I truly believe that with these ideas, and other ideas from players, we will start giving ships actual roles to play in PvP events and we will truly be on our way to making a fantastic game where more than just 3 ships that are used currently (Heavy Rattlesnake, Agamemnon, and L'Oceans).

If you have ideas for creating intricate and dynamic PvP events please share them and help the developers turn Naval Action into an awesome game.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Havelock]

Good post. I wanna go even further and say your thougts lead us to the question if there should be some way of "winning the map" (resetting it after a said amount of time with some sort of prizes being handed out).

I personally love Team Fortress as its my favourite Multiplayer game (sry NA), and one aspect of it is how it gets balance and usefulness between its classes so right.

[monk33y]

Restrictions on allies is the simplest solution that doesn't create huge amount of work for the Devs.

 

No nation should be able to have allies on both borders!!

One allie only system, means that every nation is forced to have a fountier or border where hostility is clear!

Players who want pvp know where to go, players who want pve know also where is safer (nowhere should be totally safe)

Once conflict is back and hopefully numbers increase then introduce missions 

[Kaos]

A sandbox game is a game with no clear objectives. Players can create their own goals or objectives if they wish. That's perhaps why it feels so stagnant - everyone is doing their own thing in their own corner because people have their own special objectives and there's conflict of interest everywhere whilst the games you mention as examples have very clearly defined objectives and interest - beat enemy team, win the game. Also notice how anytime someone tries to bring up some objectives (pvp event or these wrecks), it's met with fierce resistance of ''don't turn this game into another arena game'' or ''I paid the same amount of money you can't tell me how to play'' so good luck trying to herd cats : )

[monk33y]

A nation should be given a goal or mission that has a 90 day timer. Eg: the French need to capture pedro cay. Or the pirates need to capture Bridgetown! If captured nation members get ten million and 2 captain skills for free as a reward.

 

[Hethwill]

I like the concept you present although I look to rewards proposed ( and to all rewards at the moment ) and too much money...is too much.

There was a old thread comparing the pound per pound value of money. Given a Victory would cost, just in materials, to the British national Treasure something like 1.5 million pounds rewards for actions should be touched.

AND that's where your suggestion comes in nicely, as having conquest as a National effort and having a prize share to every captain involved but never in the numbers of millions.

[Hethwill]

Not a direct input to what Yar suggests but might help with the discussion.

http://www.leagueofgamemakers.com/theme-vs-mechanics-the-false-dichotomy/

[Ned Loe]

All this goes down to Rewards.

We need new items and currency. Let's call it 'battle points'. Such points are earned from what you are proposing. This can include Dailies, Weekly objectives and even Monthly.

-Daily Objectives could include 

a. Trader Based (Delivery, Escort, Millage sailed per day)

b. PvE Based (Fleets, Kill specific NPCs, quantity of ships etc)

c. PvP Based (Amount of players killed per day, PB visited, structure damage dealt etc)

All this could be rewarded Greatly with:

-Pendants (Exchange these item for XP boosters, Med Kits, Repairs etc...) - PvE

-Battle Points (Exchange these points for ships) - PvP

-Knowledge Points (Exchange these points for Crafting items, Notes etc..) - Trading

-----------------------------

Weekly Objectives

Much better rewards with a chance to get rare drops such as Blueprints, Mods etc... 

-----------------------------

Monthly Objectives are connected to Map Win

1,2,3 places + underdog. 

-Nation wins the map and gets all objectives completed - they get Gold Chest with Premium Rewards. 

-Silver Chest for 2nd place

-Bronze Chest for 3rd. 

In addition to that , we need Junk Loot Collections. Stones - Diamond, emeralds, sapphires etc.. Gold items - statues, swords, knives, farberware etc...To make this game shine you need to give away shiny things. Some think they are useless, but connecting such loot to these Objectives can open new adventures. Let's say Black Market traders will buy Loot collections for good money or can offer you interesting treasure maps in exchange. 

Devs also need to introduce Keys+Chests(with different rarity and item drops), this can mean huge profit for the company. Not only that by adding these features they are securing their product with customers. 

[Ned Loe]

2 hours ago, rediii said:

just do it with labor generation.

Reaching a national goal gives either

- 10% more labor for 4 weeks

- 10% faster hostility generation

- 10% slower hostility generation for enemys in your regions

- better weather in your regions  

God Mode With one click of a button bring Tsunami and Tornadoes.  Make your Enemies beg for mercy.

[Yar Matey]

@Wind  For now, any event you do could reward you with a ship chest and a paint chest and 1 fine, mastercraft, or exceptional module like is done now.  That is what they have in the game now for rewards so it would be easy to apply those rewards to any event you do.  Obviously you need to be on the winning side to get these rewards though.  But ultimately, a currency system like Tommy Shelby proposed some time ago is what I would really like to see.  You use this currency from PvP events to buy blueprints or ships or paints ect... 

But I agree with you that a reward system is needed to encourage people to go to PvP events.  But honestly doesn't an escort mission, where you have to escort a player driven trader ship into port with a bunch of your clan mates in warships while a bunch of players from an enemy nation in warships try to stop your buddies trader ship from getting there?  Sounds like lots of fun to me.

[Yar Matey]

3 minutes ago, rediii said:

You want to give out chests with paints and ships ... which everyone has enough of?

I am just saying that is what we have in game for rewards right now.  It would be easy for the developers to just apply that current system to any PvP event as a short term solution until a better system is implemented.  The paint chest and ship chest is kind of a bad system because too much RNG is involved, but its all we have right now. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Ned Loe]

6 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

@Wind  For now, any event you do could reward you with a ship chest and a paint chest and 1 fine, mastercraft, or exceptional module like is done now.  That is what they have in the game now for rewards so it would be easy to apply those rewards to any event you do.  Obviously you need to be on the winning side to get these rewards though.  But ultimately, a currency system like Tommy Shelby proposed some time ago is what I would really like to see.  You use this currency from PvP events to buy blueprints or ships or paints ect... 

But I agree with you that a reward system is needed to encourage people to go to PvP events.  But honestly doesn't an escort mission, where you have to escort a player driven trader ship into port with a bunch of your clan mates in warships while a bunch of players from an enemy nation in warships try to stop your buddies trader ship from getting there?  Sounds like lots of fun to me.

Imho these events is a joke. We need OS adventures. We need people sailing and fighting. Right now 80% of people are afraid to loose their ships in a fight. No need to explain further. 

[Yar Matey]

1 minute ago, Wind said:

Imho these events is a joke. We need OS adventures. We need people sailing and fighting. Right now 80% of people are afraid to loose their ships in a fight. No need to explain further. 

My ideas for events are a joke?  or the current event system in the game now is a joke? 

If you feel my suggestions are a joke, well, that just makes me sad, because I think they would be lots of fun, and I think many other players would find them fun as well.  I actually put a lot of time into thinking these ideas to try and help bring some great content to this game. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Ned Loe]

20 minutes ago, rediii said:

You want to give out chests with paints and ships ... which everyone has enough of?

these national buffs atleast make a bit of sense and everyone wants more labor hours so why not?

I don't care about Paint, I care about more interesting content that will attract people to Fight, Sail, Explore, Participate in RvR and other things. Devs just added minimal amount items for the time being, so people can be occupied. As you can see it works very well and is popular since you got tons of Paint )) , but this is not enough for such big world. We need content for every 15 mins of sailing. This means in 15 mins I can spot a ship (for daily), pick up a survivor who gives me few clues where I can find a treasure Fleet loaded with rare Junk Loot that I can Bring to a Black Market guy and Exchange it for Treasure map! Boom. That's what this game needs. Same thing for PvP people who can get 'Battle Points' for fighting and later exchange it for something cool or use it to make their Popularity rise. Eventually these players could rule Ports and build Defenses and control Econ, but what do I know. 

[Ned Loe]

6 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

My ideas for events are a joke?  or the current event system in the game now is a joke? 

If you feel my suggestions are a joke, well, that just makes me sad, because I think they would be lots of fun, and I think many other players would find them fun as well.  I actually put a lot of time into thinking these ideas to try and help bring some great content to this game. 

Your suggestions are good, but they need to move them to the OS and don't keep them in Mission Rooms. Not sure why you get so offended, when I am just trying to add few expansions to your base. 

[Yar Matey]

Just now, Wind said:

Your suggestions are good, but they need to move them to the OS and don't keep them in Mission Rooms. 

I know my OP is long and many will probably just skim through it, but I did highlight that point.  I envision a world where you and a group of your friends sail up to an enemy port and click form a blockade where you are generating hostility until the enemy nation that owns the port builds a resistance fleet, joins your instance and forces your blockading ships out of the region.

[Ned Loe]

14 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

I know my OP is long and many will probably just skim through it, but I did highlight that point.  I envision a world where you and a group of your friends sail up to an enemy port and click form a blockade where you are generating hostility until the enemy nation that owns the port builds a resistance fleet, joins your instance and forces your blockading ships out of the region.

You should be rewarded for every minute spent sailing and blockading. You get nothing right now. Devs must make players go and fight and only rewards will take care of that. Let's take a look at potbs, MOV/MOT and how they were connected. Some might get angry I mention this again, but they should learn from the best. Take an idea and expand it to your game world. I knew some people who are obsessed with pvp and MOT/MOW collections, they still play. 

[monk33y]

What we all need is daily objectives which could be as simple as sail here. Pick this up sail here (with smuggler's flag on) and sell. Get 1mill.

Get players moving around the map. I love the golf of Mexico I don't think iv ever seen another player up there

[Stilgar]

Agree: overall, objective-driven PvP (PvE), preferably in context of conquest for as much as possible/feasible, should be at heart of the game. Moreover, all the tweaking and balancing should have improved PvP (PvE) opportunities as main optimization criteria.

[fox2run]

Now the combat mechanisms and OW is in place, they should build the game up around pvp. Missions must be easy to access. Like: you log on. Find a group. Sail out. Enter a battle. 

It can be done in OW and the mission group could be "disturbed" by other players on their way. But we need a tool for players to enter the fray in easy ways. 

 

[Lord Heyford]

On 1/13/2017 at 4:10 AM, Kaos said:

A sandbox game is a game with no clear objectives. Players can create their own goals or objectives if they wish. That's perhaps why it feels so stagnant - everyone is doing their own thing in their own corner because people have their own special objectives and there's conflict of interest everywhere whilst the games you mention as examples have very clearly defined objectives and interest - beat enemy team, win the game. Also notice how anytime someone tries to bring up some objectives (pvp event or these wrecks), it's met with fierce resistance of ''don't turn this game into another arena game'' or ''I paid the same amount of money you can't tell me how to play'' so good luck trying to herd cats : )

However, a sandbox game doesn't preclude the addition of optional objectives. You can play sandbox or you can play objects. Unless you are STS who would like to have it one way so you can't have it your way.

[Angus McGregor]

On 1/13/2017 at 8:54 AM, Hethwill said:

Not a direct input to what Yar suggests but might help with the discussion.

http://www.leagueofgamemakers.com/theme-vs-mechanics-the-false-dichotomy/

Excellent reference!! Thank you muchly

 

On 1/13/2017 at 9:26 AM, rediii said:

You want to give out chests with paints and ships ... which everyone has enough of?

these national buffs atleast make a bit of sense and everyone wants more labor hours so why not?

Reward can take many forms. Gold and random gear probably being the least satisfying. The flexibility of in game credits to be accumulated until a cherished item can be bought is much better. On the other hand, the notoriety of being at the top of am Admiralty/Brotherhood leaderboard can be a strong motivation.

[Hethwill]

On ‎14‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 6:40 PM, Angus McGregor said:

Excellent reference!! Thank you muchly

You are welcome. Games are games whatever the media used and I thought sometimes a bit of... salt and pepper is need to fuel imagination, our own player ideas, and participate in the discussions with fresh points of view regardless of what a NA is now or at any given point.

We must also accept that technical limitations, unbeknownst to us, might prove some excellent solutions unfeasible.

[Yar Matey]

A picture is worth a thousand words.  I decided to draw up 2 diagrams for 2 of my ideas:

The first one is the blockade mission.  The basics is that a group of players decide they will form a blockade on a port with the hope that the enemy nation that owns the port will come and attack them.  The attacking team joins the instanced battle in the grey area and must stay within the red circle to maintain the blockade.  If a blockading ship leaves the red area, then he is no longer apart of the blockade.  Once the ship leaves the area, his battle rating can no longer count towards blockading the port.  Any port defenders that join the battle start close to the port in the light blue area, and the port defenders trying to stop the blockade must either sink, capture, or force the enemy ships out of the red circle.  Simple rules.  If the battle is won by the blockading ships, then NPC warships of that nation will spawn outside that port and attack any ship trying to enter the port for 24 hours.  

The second idea is a trader escort mission.  A player controlled trade ship will spawn far away from the port entrance as labeled by the green diamond, and any warships escorting the trade ship will spawn on the sides of the player controlled trade ship marked by the bright red rectangles.  The battle will not start until a certain BR ratio is met.  Something like 2500 BR vs 2500 BR with a maximum difference of 500.  The basic idea is the trade ship must make it to within the red circle area to win.  Attacking ships will spawn in the brown circle.  The trade ship must not be on fire or sinking and in the red circular area for a win condition to be met.  If the escort mission is successful, the port will produce 2x the resources it normally would.

There are 3 different weights of the escorted cargo in a trade ship.  100 lbs, 3000 lbs, and 5000 lbs.  This will force the trade ship to either be a small sloop trade ship, LGV, or indiaman.  

Edited January 24, 2017 by Yar Matey