Collision physics

[admin]

Hello Captains

 

Please provide your views on how realistic collisions should work in the game environment.

 

Lets look at 3 scenarios (all at maximum speed)

 

light ship - lets say cutter 

medium ship - lets say 32 38 gun frigate

1st rate - Victory

 

1) Light ship hits another light ship at 90 degrees.

2) Light ship hits medium size ship (frigate) at 90 degrees

3) Light ship hits a 1st rate and 90 degrees.

 

and in reverse

 

1) 1st rate hits a 1st rate at 90 degrees

2) 1st rate hits a frigate at 90 degrees

3) 1st rate hits a light ship at 90 degrees

 

as we said before - speeds are at max. 

 

What would happen to the ships in the scenarios described?

[PIerrick de Badas]

 

1) Light ship hits another light ship at 90 degrees.

The first one loose bis front masts and si top damaged. The second one is sunk

2) Light ship hits medium size ship (frigate) at 90 degrees

The cutter sunk the frigate is damage

3) Light ship hits a 1st rate and 90 degrees.

The cutter sunk the first rate tale minor damage

 

and in reverse

 

1) 1st rate hits a 1st rate at 90 degrees

Both get heavi damage and lost sails and masts. One or twi first rate may sunk

2) 1st rate hits a frigate at 90 degrees

Frigate is retourned or enough damage to sunk. Front masts of first rate is destroy and maybe other masts

3) 1st rate hits a light ship at 90 degrees

First rate cut the cutter in two or sunk it. First rate is not really damages.

 

[admin]

are you sure about sunk?

 

unless there is a lot of structural damage to the hull it is still wood and wood floats?

[Mirones]

well these modern yachts have not much draft so it got basicly pushed by the ship on the surface.

with the old shiptypes wich are deeper in the water have more .., have more agh damit.

some sort of resistance i think someon should get in wich derection i'm heading hopefully.

specialy because of the higher mass compared to the modern plastik and glassfiber construction.

so if that ,,old,, ship get hit is more of an real impact rather than a soft bump in the video above.

[BungeeLemming]

The most damage will come to ships with only a few layers of planking. Huge armored ships like the Victory will not be as much damaged like cutters.

 

1) light ship..(at 90°impact angle)

.. ramms light ship:  If the bowsprit hits the main mast it will break to a certain possibility. The Bow will get damaged and may as well leak water.

The rammed ship however will have huge leakage since planks are driven in (is that the correct phrase?). Means they leak a LOT and in real life they cannot be repaired at sea.

btw: both ships (same sized) will have a resulting direction due to physic laws.

 

.. ramms medium ship: (frigate sized)

The bowsprit will come off, bow will get damaged a lot, no leaking since the frigate has a higher freeboard. Frigate will go on her course, light ship has lost a lot its driving force.(maybe 30% of originalspeed)

The frigate on the other hand will have a damaged side (damage somehow decided by the kinetic impact). No leaks on her side.

 

..ramms a huge ship: (SoL)

The bowsprit will come off since the sides will 100% be hit by it. no leaks since the bow wont be able to rise on a freeboard.

The ship will nearly stop. Bow is damaged.

On the other hand the big ship will have minor damage. Maybe even none since its armor planking is soo huge, not even smaller cannon balls penetrated them.

Speed of the big ship is not reduced.

 

 

Other way round:

 

2) big ship..

 

.. ramms small ship:

The small ship will be run over, broken in two halves --> sink immediately.

but the rigging can damage the bowsprit of the huge ship and even bring it down with some luck. (yeah I read ramage's novels haha)

 

..ramms medium ships:

Not very sure about that tbh. The smaller ship will take a LOT of damage and in some cases could be overrun, too.

At very least so much planks will be broken to make her leak until she inevitably sinks.

Au contraire the bowsprit of the SoL will come off in most cases.

 

..ramms big ship:

HUGE damage on both ship's armor  . The bos will be highly damaged, bowsprit will come off.

The side of the other ship will have taken a lot of damage. I guess many planks will leak but not make it sink.

Bowsprit will break apart, many planks droven in on the bow and make her leak as badly as the opponent.

 

 

 

sidenotte:

when the Bowsprit comes down its HIGLY likely that the foremast will come off, too since a lot of stability will be lost due to the bowsprit.

Standing rigging attatched to it will help bring down the foremast.

 

theres my few cents.. I wish I had the patience to draw things for more visibillity. sry for that

 

edit:

the so called salamis maneuver was used to initiate a boarding.

It means the attacking ship will ram the target ship at height of the mizzen mast in order to bring it down. The possibility of the bowsprit beeing snapped off was a calculated risk.

The entangled rigging will prevent the ships from drifting apart.

If the maneuver was succesfull the quarterdeck could immediately be attacked by the boarders. The most important part of the ship's command.

(http://home.arcor.de/thomas_siebe/salamis.html)

sorry for german quotas

[PIerrick de Badas]

A boat float due of his form wich prévent waters to go in. If you open à bigbang breach in à l'idée of a wood boat, cutter, Bark or frigate, it Will sunk.

Napoleońs ship are ont design to ram os you hâve to give huge damage to each ship to prevent players to play like troll

[maturin]

Yeah, full speed ramming should cause major (perhaps non-repairable) leaks. Perhaps the flooding should disproportionately affect the rammer, to discourage trolling.

I second the bowsprit (and possibly foremast) loss. If the bowsprit could be used to rip lower sails and entangle shrouds for boarding purposes, that would be totally rad.

 

 

 

2) Light ship hits medium size ship (frigate) at 90 degrees

3) Light ship hits a 1st rate and 90 degrees.

We can pretend that the the light ship will impact the larger vessel with its bowsprit. The bowsprit will snap off, but this could slow the ramming ship down to the point that little damage is done to either vessel. Thus, using small, nimble vessels as rammers will be ineffective in gameplay. Likewise, a frigate cannot effectively ram and sink a lineship, because the bowsprit can act as a buffer or brake, making the damage minimal.

 

Larger ships also have a long stem or cutwater, meaning that collisions will mostly do damage above the waterline. If you ram your nose into someone's sides, the collision has to crush multiple feet of timber before the underwater parts of the hull make contact. The devs could point to this fact in order to justify low-damage from collisions involving similar ships, with rigging damage as the primary consequence.

 

 

1) Light ship hits another light ship at 90 degrees.

Bowsprit of the ramming vessel hooks in the rigging of its intended target. If the victim is also sailing at full speed, it will drag the ramming ship along with it. As a result, ramming vessel gets slewed sideways by the bowsprit, resulting in a glancing blow, with less damage.

 

 

 

 

2) 1st rate hits a frigate at 90 degrees

 

Cruuuuuunch, glug glug glug. If a captain in a smaller, nimbler ship allows himself to be rammed by a 1st rate, he deserves his fate.

 

The main question is what to do about ships of equal size ramming each other. If I am losing a gunfight badly, and can sink both myself and my enemy by ramming, I have a strong vested interest in таран.

[BrutishVulgarian]

If fiction is a good reference, the sharp, fast pointy ended ship's bows were very hard to repair on the go. It was easier for the carpenter to move around inside a good old fashioned bluff bow.

[Otakar]

From what ive seen so far there needs to be a focus on actually making rigging and masts 'solid'. If two ships collide, masts and rigging should get caught against eachother and snap or have some effect at all. So before talking about smash smash get these roblems solved otherwise smash smash wont be possible. Also ramming or colliding ought to damage both ships and possible entangle them. Get the physics of ship rigging and masts actually modelled in as a part of the ship- not just aesthetics and the colliding or ramming will be freakin badass

[Otakar]

@5:10

[maturin]

That video is a perfect example of why ramming should injure the rammer more than the rammee. Your opponent decided that he was losing, and that it was worth sacrificing some hitpoints to try and rake you. So let him suffer serious speed-aggravated leaks to the bow if he makes that decision.

[Otakar]

Personally i think the hitpoint concept is stupid. Its outdated and obsolete and doesnt require a proper damage models system. Look at the games coming out now like War Thunder, absolutely no hitpoint system whatsoever and its freakin awesome. You ram, you die too. (Yes planes are not ships but both require wind) and hitpoints are becoming a thing of the past. Ships dont need em either.

[Otakar]

Ya knaw mean?

[BungeeLemming]

first please imply added posts like that into the initial post by klicking the "edit" button. It helps keping the forum clean.

 

 

The video shows an outdated build.

Right now we still have the healthbard but no hitpoints. And sinking is not all about shaving off the health.

We have shotholes. Above and below the waterline. Also sinking is dynamic. So shotholes may get under water when the ship is sinking.

But we can tell the crew to get them plugged.

Still we look for a meaning for the health bar. Its an indicator of how much the specific side is beeing shot at and how much guns are propably left. But we see the exact cannoncount anyways.

 

Thats the thoery. In game its somewhat redicolous how much shotholes can be fixed and the ship keeps afloat. But tweaking is done every patch. Its not a great concern for me.

 

About ramming:

Its a valid tactic. See t as such. If you win and you are overconfident its your own fault.

When you play a lot of pvp games you will get used to dirty tricks. Its the same like in POTBS.

Its a learning curve and thats all fine.

Dont overpunish someone who is running a last stand for example.

"It aint stupid when it works" Its a good sayin if you ask me

[maturin]

 

About ramming:

Its a valid tactic. See t as such. If you win and you are overconfident its your own fault.

When you play a lot of pvp games you will get used to dirty tricks. Its the same like in POTBS.

Its a learning curve and thats all fine.

Dont overpunish someone who is running a last stand for example.

"It aint stupid when it works" Its a good sayin if you ask me

If they implemented realistic ramming damage, every battle would end like that. As soon as someone sees that they are being beaten, they will decide to send both ships to the bottom.

[Otakar]

Hit points for the 4 sides makes sense but the overall health bar on top doesnt, it seems redundant- is there a reason for it?

The video was to illustrate that rigging and the bowsprits werent 'solid'. And they didnt catch the other masts and rigging of the other ship, are you saying this has been fixed? If not then that maybe a reason for health bars as i mention: a lack of proper damagemodels

[BungeeLemming]

the healthbar on top is not a real healthbar. Iths our buoyancy indicator.

In short term:

the faster it goes down the faster your sinking.

you can pump water wich is recovering your buoyancy bar.

[Otakar]

Ahhh okay. That makes, the numbers represent actual weight to buoyancy ratio? So is it possible to order your men to deep six as much as they can in order to lighten the ship?

the healthbar on top is not a real healthbar. Iths our buoyancy indicator.

In short term:

the faster it goes down the faster your sinking.

you can pump water wich is recovering your buoyancy bar.

[PIerrick de Badas]

More a ship tante damage more sails/rigs are out, more water it takes, more slow it is and then this ship is not able to ram cause too slow. If it réal ramming was not a viable tactic execpt to force boarding dev hâve to make it not viable too exepct for boarding.

[Oneironz]

I agree with BungeeLemming and Maturin, I couldn't have said better myself.

 

2 light ships will suffer equal amounts of damage.

 

1 light ship and one heavy, the light will suffer the most damage, the medium sized ship should be able to keep on it's way.

 

1 light ship and a Victory, only a mad captain would thing of ramming a 1st rate with a cutter, the cutter would get pretty badly damaged, will probably sink.

[BrutishVulgarian]

Long ago, I had my Constitution rolled over and sunk by a Victory. I don't know if that's realistic, but it was fun. I'd like the chance of bigger ships rolling over smaller ships., sometimes.

[Destraex]

@5:10

 

 

I think perhaps that these ships are engaging at dangerous ranges to begin with. 

I should also mention that Ancient galleys used to have to be specially re-enforced at the bow to withstand ramming and not fall apart themselves.

They were of much lighter construction however. But it does illustrate that ramming cannot be expected to work well on ships of equal weight not designed for it. Both would suffer equally. We must not assume that the bow of an age of sail ship was any tougher than the rest of the ship ???

[Chilly Willy]

rolled over a cutter in a victory last night and it disappeared (simply vanashed)

there was no wreckage should have been some floating wreckage (something to be added perhaps?)

teach that bugger to pull out in front of me

[Chilly Willy]

Long ago, I had my Constitution rolled over and sunk by a Victory. I don't know if that's realistic, but it was fun. I'd like the chance of bigger ships rolling over smaller ships., sometimes.

Do you remember if there was any floating wreckage left?

[BrutishVulgarian]

Do you remember if there was any floating wreckage left?

I think it just sunk upside down, but I don't really remember.