Grappling should be based on speed difference rather than speed

[Mongoose McMoose]

There's no reason why two ships both traveling 8 knots should not be able to grapple each other. in fact it would be easier for two ships at the same speed to grapple, rather than one ship being stopped and the other coming alongside at 4 knots.

Once grappled, the speed of the combined ships would have to fall away to below 5 knots before actual boarding could commence.

[Galileus]

There is the game balance reason. I would prefer for grapling to take as much effort as it take snow. Otherwise it just asks for abuse and griefing.

[xAzDKr]

There is the game balance reason. I would prefer for grapling to take as much effort as it take snow. Otherwise it just asks for abuse and griefing.

 

How would it be abused? Any ship fast enough to run circles around a 5th rate can have it's crew demolished in 1-2 attacks, and thats before any broadsides are fired.

I believe that boarding should be possible if the ships are both under 10 knots and both are within 1-2 knots of each other.

[Hethwill]

In reality you might thrown the grapples. The issue is how to exert enough force to make the ships come to a halt... without snapping the cables...

 

3.5 knots is a bloody awesome compromise in my book.

[Galileus]

How would it be abused? Any ship fast enough to run circles around a 5th rate can have it's crew demolished in 1-2 attacks, and thats before any broadsides are fired.

I believe that boarding should be possible if the ships are both under 10 knots and both are within 1-2 knots of each other.

 

Even now, more often than not fights end up in this embarrassing "really? ramming?" moment. I would rather not have a "gotya!" moment on top of that.

 

As long as grappling means ANYTHING, it could be used to hold someone and force his movements. If it cannot... why bother?

[xAzDKr]

Even now, more often than not fights end up in this embarrassing "really? ramming?" moment. I would rather not have a "gotya!" moment on top of that.

 

As long as grappling means ANYTHING, it could be used to hold someone and force his movements. If it cannot... why bother?

I had one of those yesterday, a Pirate knew he would not escape us so he rammed anything he could hit and then attempted to board someone, once in the boarding minigame he braced the whole time and let himself sink. However, that is only the second time I have ever seen that happen, some people choose to go down and bring the ship with them, and honestly I see nothing wrong with that. 

[Mongoose McMoose]

Even now, more often than not fights end up in this embarrassing "really? ramming?" moment. I would rather not have a "gotya!" moment on top of that.

As long as grappling means ANYTHING, it could be used to hold someone and force his movements. If it cannot... why bother?

Sorry maybe I have not explained myself correctly. Grappling to force a boarding action is what I mean for this to be used for. Currently if you want to board, both ships need to be at a snail's pace of movement. Surely if two ships were along side each other, grappling could happen regardless of speed.

[jodgi]

I had one of those yesterday, a Pirate knew he would not escape us so he rammed anything he could hit and then attempted to board someone, once in the boarding minigame he braced the whole time and let himself sink. However, that is only the second time I have ever seen that happen, some people choose to go down and bring the ship with them, and honestly I see nothing wrong with that.

LOL, I'm such a helpless nice guy that I had to have someone explain to me that this is a thing. I'll start doing this when at the receiving end of a gank.

Or rather, how to give up in the most annoying way possible...

[maturin]

I wouldn't mind faster grappling if physical contact between the hulls is required and if snapping your bowsprit off in a ram disables grappling for 45 seconds, like disengagement does.

[eriks]

If you tried grappling two vessels that weigh tens of tons that are going at 8-10 knots all you are going to do is rip out whatever the grapple grabs or snap your 1000 pound test hemp line.

 

It's generally fine how it is.

 

edit: typo

Edited March 3, 2016 by eriks

[Salty Dog.]

so two ships traveling at 8 knots, 0 difference in speed of the two.  You grapple and one ship turns....guess what happens.

 

the current rules are fine.  At three knots the momentum of the ship is low enough that one ship could pull in the other.  

[Aetrion]

Generally I agree, but if there isn't any kind of speed limit to boarding the game currently has no defense against it, which makes no sense.

 

In reality if someone threw grappling hooks on your ship you could just chop the lines with a boarding axe, and generally actually getting onto the deck of another ship was very difficult. One of the most important uses of grape shot was clearing the decks so that a boarding attempt could even be started, since it was nearly impossible to actually start moving a significant number of men onto the enemy ship if they were prepared to repel the attempt. Just driving close to an enemy ship would earn you a hail of fire from muskets and deck guns.

 

So, as long as there is still some method to actually deny someone the opportunity to board, sure, realistically matching speeds should make boarding possible. But there just needs to be some way of stopping people from actually attempting it, which right now is keeping your speed up.

[Mongoose McMoose]

If you tried grappling two vessels that weigh tens of tons that are going at 8-10 knots all you are going to do is rip out whatever the grapple grabs or snap your 1000 pound test hemp line.

 

It's generally fine how it is.

 

edit: typo

 1/2" rope holds a ton (by which I mean a literal ton - 2000 lbs). Get 10 grappling hooks over the other guy's side, plus lashes on yard arms, and those ships will not be drifting apart. 

[AKPyrate]

Sorry maybe I have not explained myself correctly. Grappling to force a boarding action is what I mean for this to be used for. Currently if you want to board, both ships need to be at a snail's pace of movement. Surely if two ships were along side each other, grappling could happen regardless of speed.

 

3-4 kts is not a snail's pace in this era, it was often an average speed.  Additionally, grappling would not be effective at higher speeds due to the number of forces on both vessels at those speeds and it would be nearly impossible to get enough grapnels across at the same time to actually pull the ships together without them snapping.  

 

so two ships traveling at 8 knots, 0 difference in speed of the two.  You grapple and one ship turns....guess what happens.

 

the current rules are fine.  At three knots the momentum of the ship is low enough that one ship could pull in the other.  

 

Even if the ships were sailing in the same direction and speed, it would be nearly impossible to pull the vessels together, as their bow wakes would push the bows apart and the lower pressure by the sterns would pull them together, thus resulting in the vessels traveling away from each other (and snapping any line small enough to throw with a grapnel).  This doesn't take in to account the surging, pitching and rolling that would put extreme tension in any lines holding them together when the wind and seas are in such a state for these boats to be traveling at 8 kts.

 

 1/2" rope holds a ton (by which I mean a literal ton - 2000 lbs). Get 10 grappling hooks over the other guy's side, plus lashes on yard arms, and those ships will not be drifting apart. 

 

A ton isn't that much when you're talking about a boat that weighs over 1,000 tons (such as Trincomalee).  Lashing the yards is not as easy as it sounds, as first you have to line them up close enough to be lashed, and if there are any significant waves, lashing the yards could result in dismasting both vessels as they try to pitch and roll.  If it were possible to even try, and one vessel doesn't want to be boarded, at a higher speed a small course change would snap the lines and sailors with axes would take care of the ones that didn't snap.  It just isn't realistic to board at those speeds.  Boarding at slower speeds is historically accurate and just means that to board that enemy that doesn't want to be boarded, you need to take care of his sails a bit first.

[eriks]

 1/2" rope holds a ton (by which I mean a literal ton - 2000 lbs). Get 10 grappling hooks over the other guy's side, plus lashes on yard arms, and those ships will not be drifting apart. 

 

No one is talking about a drifting situation. The thread is about grapppling when ships are going 8 or so knots.

 

First of all the static load of .5 inch hemp rope is a ton. The dynamic (shock load) is much less.

 

Second of all a Cerberus (Coventry class ship) displaces ~500 tons.

 

Third of all the sails are putting enough force into the system to move 50 tons at 8 knots. You're not only pulling the weight of the ship, you're pulling the sail load too.

 

500 tons going 8 knots is a lot of Ke. That is about 4 million foot-pounds of energy.

[maturin]

Ships didn't 'grapple' each other, IRL.

 

They just deliberately entangled themselves in the rigging, usually by running the bowsprit in to the shrouds.

[eriks]

So just to run the numbers here.

 

8 knots is about 4 m/s

 

500 tons is 453,592 kg

 

The Ke of a 453,592 kg ship going 8 knots is 5,669,900 joules.

 

So I am pretty sure to stop that you need a rope with a shock load of 710,000 kg (1.5 million pounds).

[InfiniteAmount]

The problem is that the wind is far too consistently strong in this game, it doesn't reflect reality. Unless it involved a chase situation, most naval combat during the age of sail would already be occurring at sub-8kt speeds due to wind and safety reasons (Battle sails, where the mainsails are furled, are a thing because the flash from a cannon could easily set the sails close to the deck on fire). But this is just not reflected in the game. Historically, how much sail you had furled or unfurled wasn't some speed throttling mechanism, there were reasons why different configurations were used, and probably, if a sailing ship was using topgallants or royals in the unrealistically powerful and consistent wind that's represented in game, either the mast would break off or the ship would capsize. Grappling above 3.5kts is not realistic simply because most fighting, in general, did not occur much above that speed in the first place.

Edited March 4, 2016 by InfiniteAmount

[Mongoose McMoose]

So just to run the numbers here.

8 knots is about 4 m/s

500 tons is 453,592 kg

The Ke of a 453,592 kg ship going 8 knots is 5,669,900 joules.

So I am pretty sure to stop that you need a rope with a shock load of 710,000 kg (1.5 million pounds).

To stop a ship with a rope which is tied to a stationary object, yes. But we are not discussing stationary objects are we? We are discussing relative motion between two objects. Two ships with zero relative motion could technically be tied together with a hair.

You have inadvertently made a case FOR my position, rather than against it. I am saying that relative motion between two vessels should be the calculation for grapple possibility, rather than minimum speed. You have just proven the improbability of a 4 knot ship sailing by and grappling a stationary vessel.

[Mongoose McMoose]

Grappling above 3.5kts is not realistic simply because most fighting, in general, did not occur much above that speed in the first place.

If you agree that the game combat runs at a speed of about 3 to 4 times faster than reality, then surely grappling is fine taking place at speeds of a similar multiplier.

[maturin]

So just to run the numbers here.

 

8 knots is about 4 m/s

 

500 tons is 453,592 kg

 

The Ke of a 453,592 kg ship going 8 knots is 5,669,900 joules.

 

So I am pretty sure to stop that you need a rope with a shock load of 710,000 kg (1.5 million pounds).

This assumes that the ships are travelling in opposite directions at 4 knots, and that the line suddenly drawn totally taught. That has nothing to do with reality.

 

All grappling would be a glancing blow, while the ships moved in tandem.

[eriks]

To stop a ship with a rope which is tied to a stationary object, yes. But we are not discussing stationary objects are we? We are discussing relative motion between two objects. Two ships with zero relative motion could technically be tied together with a hair.

You have inadvertently made a case FOR my position, rather than against it. I am saying that relative motion between two vessels should be the calculation for grapple possibility, rather than minimum speed. You have just proven the improbability of a 4 knot ship sailing by and grappling a stationary vessel.

 

 

All you have to do is throw the helm over hard and you've got more than enough energy to snap any dozen 18th century lines.

 

edit typo

Edited March 4, 2016 by eriks

[Mongoose McMoose]

All you have to do is throw the helm over hard and you've got more than enough energy to snap any dozen 18th century lines.

edit typo

You know that sails are attached to the yardarms by rope, right? And further by that logic anchors would be useless because they are on a rope as well.

It doesn't take much to propel or restrain an object on the water, which is why swimming is such excellent low-impact exercise for people recovering from injury.

[Warrax]

There's no reason why two ships both traveling 8 knots should not be able to grapple each other. in fact it would be easier for two ships at the same speed to grapple, rather than one ship being stopped and the other coming alongside at 4 knots.

Once grappled, the speed of the combined ships would have to fall away to below 5 knots before actual boarding could commence.

[sarcasm ... read on]

... Sure ... And how about we just make everything else super easy too, so no skill at all is required to excel in the game.

In all seriousness, the requirement for 3.5 knots requires skill, boarding is challenging - even given ideal circumstances.

If grappling is too easy, the gameplay would be very different.

This proposal to make easy grappling would force most players to permantly scorn the carronade option.

And remove all sense of reality ... Ever try to impel 500 tonnes with a hemp rope? Ya ... Bet a dollar you did not meet with much success.

Careful what you wish for ...

Edited March 4, 2016 by Warrax

[AKPyrate]

To stop a ship with a rope which is tied to a stationary object, yes. But we are not discussing stationary objects are we? We are discussing relative motion between two objects. Two ships with zero relative motion could technically be tied together with a hair.

You have inadvertently made a case FOR my position, rather than against it. I am saying that relative motion between two vessels should be the calculation for grapple possibility, rather than minimum speed. You have just proven the improbability of a 4 knot ship sailing by and grappling a stationary vessel.

 

There are other forces which do change with higher speed, even if the vessels are moving in the same direction at the same speed.  Below is a diagram of some reactions when a vessel (in this case the larger vessel A) is overtaking another vessel.  Note there are effects on the smaller vessel (and if they were similar sizes, the forces would affect both vessels more instead of just one) that cause it to turn in to and away from the overtaking vessel.  These forces are amplified at greater speed, so to reduce these potentially dangerous forces, one of the top suggestions (and yes, this is my profession) is to reduce speed as the effects of the pressure waves is proportional to the square of the vessel's speed.  It's a strong enough force that large container ships meeting head on in narrow channels steer towards each other as they pass since the bows will push away from each other that much (shallow water and narrow channels do amplify this effect to be fair, but it's still a very present physics reality).  It's also why one of the more dangerous operations that the USN conducts is UnRep (underway replenishing) at high speeds.  And here the ships are trying to stay a certain distance apart, not get close enough to jump across with weapons and enough buddies to take an enemy ship! 

 

 

You know that sails are attached to the yardarms by rope, right? And further by that logic anchors would be useless because they are on a rope as well.

It doesn't take much to propel or restrain an object on the water, which is why swimming is such excellent low-impact exercise for people recovering from injury.

 

The sails are attached at much more than just the yardarms, they're attached all along the yard, as well as with a tackle at each of the lower clews to the yardarm below.  As for the anchor comment...try heaving an anchor cable to an enemy's deck...even a light weight one!