Players losing ships is bad, and here is why.

[Ghroznak]

When a pvper has to spend 5x as much time replacing their losses as they do pvping, then it's not a pvp based game. It's an economy game.

 

How much they have to spend in replacing their losses is entirely based on the availability of resources and the cost of those resources.

 

PvP is always an economy game,  unless you play FPS games or MMO's.

 

A ship loss = money lost = affects your economy.

 

There is a reason why games like EVE Online has a mantra "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". The message is simple and it applies to all games where the PvP is designed so you can lose assets. Naval Action is one of those games.

 

Does that mean you have to be heavily into the economy or trade to do PvP?

 

Not at all. But you are also not unaffected by it. If your ships are becoming expensive it's because the resources are becoming more rare, either due to high demand or because of low supply. If that happens, you as a PvP'er should be looking into why, and what you can do about it, e.g. recapture lost ports.

[kumisz]

If you lose an already 5 durability ship so fast that it didnt make its price back, either by pvp or pve activity, that is entirely your fault. Ships are very cheap in the current state of the game, especially with the extensive mission rewards in gold.

 

When a pvper has to spend 5x as much time replacing their losses as they do pvping, then it's not a pvp based game. It's an economy game.

[Карл Лейфсен]

Just because nobody has actually bothered to make a ship game that treats ships like characters in an RPG and not like disposable items doesn't mean there is no market for it. ... Trying to slap an economic simulation over the top of that rather than a progression system is in all likelihood doing more harm than good, because this games combat system is in many ways superior to WoWS, just not anywhere near as readily accessible.

+1

[Sea Nettle]

 The OP concept is absolutely alien to the obvious design of the game, has zero chance of ever being implemented and serves as a troll to most of the player-base.

[Mrdoomed]

I just dont understand the problem. Did the people whining about this nit being world of Warcraft on water NOT read ir investigate the game before they bought it ?

The same couple people complain in and on that this game is just to hard for them and it needs to be molded to thier likes and screw those of us that knew what we aas buying. I mean we dont buy hello kitty games and then demand it be changed into a hardcore sandbox kitty eat kitty world do we ? No we buy a game we like not buyba gane the opposite of what we want.

A game like this can and will be massively successful and can maintain a large player base uf they stick to thier roots but as soon as they give in to the rainbow bright crowd then they will lose the base players and still lose the rainbow bright players.

Bottom line is that you dont want a game like this and changing it to your liking will make nobody happy.

[Aetrion]

Some people prefer the battles and hunting.

Some people prefer sailing around looking for Oak to produce their ships, or simply sell the goods to a crafter.

 

Why should we have to choose one or the other?

 

Is there any reason why the game can't have both of these things at the same time?

 

There is a reason why games like EVE Online has a mantra "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". The message is simple and it applies to all games where the PvP is designed so you can lose assets. Naval Action is one of those games.

 

You just answered your own question there:  No, the game cannot have both of those things as separate valid gameplay avenues as long as the battles are restricted by the economy.

 

It's completely insane with what kind of smug certainty people here declare that every single person that came here for the ships and battles should have their enjoyment of the game held hostage by people who want to drive around looking for cheap Oak.  I mean it would never cross my mind to say "Hey, you don't get to drive around looking for trade routes until you've spent enough time PvPing to earn it", but the other way around  we're just supposed to accept it?

 

I'm all for allowing people to make their way through the game as a trader or a crafter, but screw balancing the game around what things cost, because that just screws over everyone who wants to dedicated themselves to the fights and not the economy.

 

 

Until I see the game put nothing but pictures of the shop and craft menu on it's steam page I'm going to insist that if you want to play it for the sea battles and the ships then nothing should stop you. There are plenty of ways to develop the economy as a parallel system rather than a limiting system so if someone really wants to trade and craft they can do it without anyone else getting held back by not wanting to do the same.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Aetrion

[hoarmurath]

You just answered your own question there:  No, the game cannot have both of those things as separate valid gameplay avenues as long as the battles are restricted by the economy.

 

It's completely insane with what kind of smug certainty people here declare that every single person that came here for the ships and battles should have their enjoyment of the game held hostage by people who want to drive around looking for cheap Oak. 

 

I'm all for allowing people to make their way through the game as a trader or a crafter, but screw balancing the game around what things cost, because that just screws over everyone who wants to dedicated themselves to the fights and not the economy.

 

 

Until I see the game put nothing but pictures of the shop and craft menu on it's steam page I'm going to insist that if you want to play it for the sea battles and the ships then nothing should stop you. There are plenty of ways to develop the economy as a parallel system rather than a limiting system so if someone really wants to trade and craft they can do it without anyone else getting held back by not wanting to do the same.

 

Someone around is in the wrong game... What you are looking for is a moba, not a mmo. And even in a moba, you have moneysinks. They are different here, that's all.

[Dedlox]

I think it's pretty simple, the game was designed so that if you want to pvp, you need money and resources to do so, that way you play other aspects of the game and give a purpose for crafters and traders. If you are looking to just pvp with your pretty gold ship and gold mods without having to worry about anything else, then this isn't the game for you. I can promise you, they will not change to a no loss outcome, they may adjust durability and costs but at some point, you need to lose that ship. And if they do change to no loss, my last post on this forum will be congratulating you and saying you were right. (Write that down! =p)

 

Man I wish a dev would come in here and make a statement.....

Edited February 11, 2016 by Dedlox

[Aetrion]

The mere fact that you think crafters and traders only have a purpose when they are used to bottleneck combat gameplay suggests to me that you know full well that crafting and trading are not anywhere interesting enough of a system to be worth doing for their own sake right now.

[Dedlox]

The mere fact that you think crafters and traders only have a purpose when they are used to bottleneck combat gameplay suggests to me that you know full well that crafting and trading are not anywhere interesting enough of a system to be worth doing for their own sake right now.

I really don't think you get it, you know what drives crafters and traders? A market for their goods, without loss there is no market, therefore, crafting and trading has no purpose. You think people just want to make shit so they can look at it? No, they want to sell it which they can't if you can never lose your pretty gold ship. That is the circle of life. It is pretty obvious you don't have much mmo experience based on your responses except for single player or pvp only focused games. Either adjust and accept or make a single post in the suggestion forums and leave it be.

 

Bottleneck lol Good luck on your crusade my friend.

[kumisz]

Guess what: the fact that you think they are not interesting enough, doesn't mean everybody else thinks the same. I love to craft ships, and sell them. I love looking for cheap resources, and I love that I can shortly craft even bigger and better ships. Why do you want to bend the game to your will?

 

I understand you dont like that you have to do some (not much, but some) PvE gameplay if you want to keep playing PvP, because people tend to sink your ship. But that doesnt mean that the economy and crafting is worthless, only because trying to reach the point where you simply cannot lose your ship.

 

The mere fact that you think crafters and traders only have a purpose when they are used to bottleneck combat gameplay suggests to me that you know full well that crafting and trading are not anywhere interesting enough of a system to be worth doing for their own sake right now.

[Aetrion]

Guess what: the fact that you think they are not interesting enough, doesn't mean everybody else thinks the same. I love to craft ships, and sell them. I love looking for cheap resources, and I love that I can shortly craft even bigger and better ships. Why do you want to bend the game to your will?

 

Hey, more power to you. I want you to craft ships, I want you to enjoy doing it, I want to buy an amazing ship from you some day. I just don't want to have to spend my time in the game grinding for money to put in your pocket so I'm allowed to do what I enjoy as well.

[charognard666]

Hey, more power to you. I want you to craft ships, I want you to enjoy doing it, I want to buy an amazing ship from you some day. I just don't want to have to spend my time in the game grinding for money to put in your pocket so I'm allowed to do what I enjoy as well.

 

I really don't understand you, because you are against one of the fundamental point of interest of this game, and why many of us like it. By your last post, i'msorry, but i feel you are looking for something like WoW, or any simple fight game... 

 

The point of NA, or others games like it, is, you must invest time in order to have big and powerfull things... If you re not ok with that, well, you can freely pvp in free cutter... 

[kumisz]

Not like you have to grind for a moment if you want to continue PvP. PvP battles give you gold too, even more than the PvE battles. Say, you lose your Surprise in every second battle (still a huge sink rate, since not every lost battle ends with losing your ship), so you have 10 PvP battles for, say. 65k gold. 6.5k gold per battle is really not that much to do in a Surprise. That is what I mean, when I say "ships are ridiculously cheap".

 

Hey, more power to you. I want you to craft ships, I want you to enjoy doing it, I want to buy an amazing ship from you some day. I just don't want to have to spend my time in the game grinding for money to put in your pocket so I'm allowed to do what I enjoy as well.

[maturin]

Hey, more power to you. I want you to craft ships, I want you to enjoy doing it, I want to buy an amazing ship from you some day. I just don't want to have to spend my time in the game grinding for money to put in your pocket so I'm allowed to do what I enjoy as well.

What are the odds of you buying an amazing ship from more than one crafter if that ship will never, ever be lost? You only need one amazing ship in each category, for eternity. Why would you ever settle for less than perfection when the investment pays infinite dividends?

 

 

If we don't have loss in PvP, then ships need to degrade over time. The difference is that no one is excited or motivated by watching wood rot.

[Mrdoomed]

I really don't understand you, because you are against one of the fundamental point of interest of this game, and why many of us like it. By your last post, i'msorry, but i feel you are looking for something like WoW, or any simple fight game...

The point of NA, or others games like it, is, you must invest time in order to have big and powerfull things... If you re not ok with that, well, you can freely pvp in free cutter...

Ive mentioned this to him half a dozen times. He doesnt care he just is trying to cause agitation it seems. Ive just started ignoring him in this in all his posts because they are the exact same in every thread.

[charognard666]

Ive mentioned this to him half a dozen times. He doesnt care he just is trying to cause agitation it seems. Ive just started ignoring him in this in all his posts because they are the exact same in every thread.

 

Yes, i'm alright with you, cause, in each post, this guy want transform NA in something else...

 

We can talk about some game features, or gameplay elements and how improve and enchance it and have some debate, but we can't try to change the game fundamentals... 

Edited February 11, 2016 by charognard666

[Aetrion]

We can talk about some game features, or gameplay elements and how improve and enchance it and have some debate, but we can't try to change the game fundamentals... 

 

You keep insisting I'm trying to change fundamentals, but I never said that there shouldn't be an economy of any kind, just that the economy shouldn't be based on replacing your whole ship over and over. 

 

I suggested player crafted repair kits for every ship type.

 

I suggested player crafted overhaul kits to restore durability for every ship type.

 

I suggested being able to craft ships that aren't cheap but have more lasting value.

 

None of those things are me saying "We shouldn't have an economy", it's just me saying "I want ships to be permanent as a means of progression".

 

 

It seems more and more like you guys aren't even reading anything I'm saying, just "Rabble rabble rabble, you should play WoW", no matter how much I try to suggest a compromise that makes more sense for everyone.

[Anne Wildcat]

If you don't want to lose your ship, then keep to the basic cutter.

[charognard666]

You keep insisting I'm trying to change fundamentals, but I never said that there shouldn't be an economy of any kind, just that the economy shouldn't be based on replacing your whole ship over and over. 

 

I suggested player crafted repair kits for every ship type.

 

I suggested player crafted overhaul kits to restore durability for every ship type.

 

I suggested being able to craft ships that aren't cheap but have more lasting value.

 

None of those things are me saying "We shouldn't have an economy", it's just me saying "I want ships to be permanent as a means of progression".

 

 

It seems more and more like you guys aren't even reading anything I'm saying, just "Rabble rabble rabble, you should play WoW", no matter how much I try to suggest a compromise that makes more sense for everyone.

 

And i'm sorry but your progression is your capacity to keep your ship unsunk and to replace it if you loose it... Even if you loose a ship, you can easly, without pay any crafter, cap a new one with some friends... Ho, yes, this is a game where you need some friends...

 

And really, i think the game have already "more sense" for a great number of players... 

Edited February 11, 2016 by charognard666

[Tindahbawx]

 No, the game cannot have both of those things as separate valid gameplay avenues as long as the battles are restricted by the economy.

 

Yes, it can.

 

Crafters and traders, once that aspect of the game is fully fleshed out do their thing to keep the economy running and fill their wallets with gold.

PvP'ers get to fight, using the ships the crafters produce, as well as protect the crafters and traders of their nation and capturing vital resource producing ports, if they want their nations economy to be able to support the continued production of the ships that they are using.

 

Obviously at the minute crafting is very bare bones, and the trade system is the most basic format it can be, but over time as more systems are added to the game you'll find more people dedicating their time to that side of things if they enjoy it. Personally I don't see how anyone gets a kick out of that sort of thing, but as I learned from EvE, theres some people who just love to sit and stare at a rock being hit with their mining lasers for hours on end, or sit and manipulate trade p[rices in trading hubs, and never actually venture outside the station.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Tindahbawx

[Slamz]

I suggested player crafted overhaul kits to restore durability for every ship type.

 

This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, provided the cost of an overhaul was actually the exact same thing as just buying a new ship.

 

Then, economically, it's the same as ship loss, but psychologically you didn't "lose the ship".

 

I guess the question is whether people have a problem with the economics of ship lost or the psychological impact of ship loss. We could fix the second one easily enough while keeping the economy the same.

[Aetrion]

This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, provided the cost of an overhaul was actually the exact same thing as just buying a new ship.

 

Then, economically, it's the same as ship loss, but psychologically you didn't "lose the ship".

 

I guess the question is whether people have a problem with the economics of ship lost or the psychological impact of ship loss. We could fix the second one easily enough while keeping the economy the same.

 

The idea of overhaul kits is basically:

 

Crafters can build an overhaul kit that costs the same as the most basic unmodified version of a ship.

 

It can be used to restore any ship of the same class and wood type as the overhaul kit.  (So the item would be like "Live Oak Lynx Overhaul Kit")

 

It's not purely about psychological impact, because it would mean you can restore an exceptional ship with an overhaul kit that is technically much cheaper than finding a whole new gold quality ship, however, it would give everyone a chance to build up to exceptional ships rather than just having them be toys for the super rich. 

 

The amount of base trading materials used in an overhaul would be the same as building new hulls though. Since you would have to overhaul a ship when it hits 1 durability rather than replacing it when it hits zero overhauls would technically be 25% more costly in base materials, but preserve your ship's upgrades, so crafters wouldn't lose any business.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Aetrion

[Dedlox]

The idea of overhaul kits is basically:

 

Crafters can build an overhaul kit that costs the same as the most basic unmodified version of a ship.

 

It can be used to restore any ship of the same class and wood type as the overhaul kit.  (So the item would be like "Live Oak Lynx Overhaul Kit")

 

It's not purely about psychological impact, because it would mean you can restore an exceptional ship with an overhaul kit that is technically much cheaper than finding a whole new gold quality ship, however, it would give everyone a chance to build up to exceptional ships rather than just having them be toys for the super rich. 

 

The amount of base trading materials used in an overhaul would be the same as building new hulls though. Since you would have to overhaul a ship when it hits 1 durability rather than replacing it when it hits zero overhauls would technically be 25% more costly in base materials, but preserve your ship's upgrades, so crafters wouldn't lose any business.

So you take away options from crafters so you can pick the ship you want? If you go this route, any crafter in their right mind will craft nothing but these kits because who wants to just sell one ship when you can sell multiple overhaul kits. Everyone will only buy the ship they like the best and there will be no need to make any more so now the only item worth putting on the market will be 4 kinds of kits instead of multiple ships and upgrades. Gratz, you just made crafting and trading the least diverse thing in the game since with only 4 items worth crafting, not sure how to make those unique...oh, and by the way, good luck finding anyone to make the pretty gold ship because it wouldn't be worth it to make money.

 

You're right Mrdoom, this guy is on a personal crusade and refuses to rebut anything contributing to why his ideas are bad yet keeps on preaching. I sense this church getting smaller and smaller.

[hoarmurath]

if you were passing as much time in the game as you do here, affording ships wouldn't be a problem...