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4 minutes ago, pietjenoob said:

explain then why France and English for example have literally Fluyts or how ever u want to spell it in there fleets and even plans of it??

Like what? And when?

'en flute' just means a warship sailing with reduced armament.

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If we can't have whales in the game because it's unethical, then I guess we need to consider removing the TUNA too ?  Just silly.

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2 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Yes, and that link shows that the design was basically obsolete by the time of game period...   The Ingermanland is already a stretch.  

There was once a very long thread about Fluyts that got bizarrely emotional and overheated.

Some fine upstanding folks dug up plans for late-18th Century fluyts, and it was found that by that time they had evolved into pretty much ordinary-looking cargo vessels, distinguished by an unusual amount of sheer.

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11 minutes ago, maturin said:

There was once a very long thread about Fluyts that got bizarrely emotional and overheated.

Some fine upstanding dug up plans for late-18th Century fluyts, and it was found that by that time they had evolved into pretty much ordinary-looking cargo vessels, distinguished by an unusual amount of sheer.

you can make whaling an option and anyone caught red handed in it, attackable by anybody. Like smuggler

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9 minutes ago, Red Dragon 13 said:

you can make whaling an option and anyone caught red handed in it, attackable by anybody. Like smuggler

Whaling was legal.

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While I dont condone whaling in modern times, I am also fully understanding that it was a MAJOR part of the 19th century economy.  Whale oil accounted for a huge part of the economy for the French, Dutch, and British.  

Hitting whaling ships was the basis for the book, "Master and Commander, Far side of the World" As the USS Essex was attacking British whaling vessels while disguised as a whaling ship itself in the Pacific.   The HMS Surprise was dispatched to stop it.  

As for slavery.  No... the British had outlawed it by the 19th century.  The War of 1812 actually was partially about that.  The British were intercepting slave ships headed to the Americas, and setting the slaves free.   Thus crippling the US, Dutch and Spanish economy.

 

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8 minutes ago, Odol said:

As for slavery.  No... the British had outlawed it by the 19th century.  The War of 1812 actually was partially about that.  The British were intercepting slave ships headed to the Americas, and setting the slaves free.   Thus crippling the US, Dutch and Spanish economy.

Nnnnnnnot really.

The United States outlawed the Transatlantic Slave Trade several years before the war began.

The slave population in the U.S. was pretty much self-sustaining, and importing new slaves was viewed as either immoral or simply a threat to public order because of uprisings.

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3 minutes ago, maturin said:

Nnnnnnnot really.

The United States outlawed the Transatlantic Slave Trade several years before the war began.

The slave population in the U.S. was pretty much self-sustaining, and importing new slaves was viewed as either immoral or simply a threat to public order because of uprisings.

Interesting. 

From my understanding they were still seeing slaves come into the country through "other" sources.  And slaves that were near British colonies would escape to freedom under British rule.  The British also used freed slaves as Royal Colonial Marines, in the Caribbean due to the out break of malaria and other "tropical" diseases that crippled the typical European born Royal Marine. 

One such case was Negro Fort in Florida.  Which was comprised of mostly freed slaves turned Colonial Marine.   The US Navy fired on the fort and hit the magazine, killing most of the inhabitants and several local Seminole people.  The outcome kind of lead to the 1st Seminole War... 

 

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On 7/14/2015 at 1:57 AM, admin said:

Thanks for the suggestion

Whaling is hard to make right. Most likely whaling will not appear in the final game due to scope control

ps. We are sure it might appear in Star Citizen at some point :)

 

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15 minutes ago, Odol said:

Interesting. 

From my understanding they were still seeing slaves come into the country through "other" sources.  And slaves that were near British colonies would escape to freedom under British rule.  The British also used freed slaves as Royal Colonial Marines, in the Caribbean due to the out break of malaria and other "tropical" diseases that crippled the typical European born Royal Marine. 

One such case was Negro Fort in Florida.  Which was comprised of mostly freed slaves turned Colonial Marine.   The US Navy fired on the fort and hit the magazine, killing most of the inhabitants and several local Seminole people.  The outcome kind of lead to the 1st Seminole War... 

 

There was a lot of illegal trading, one of many uses for fast clipper-built vessels like Lynx or Prince.

Since the Seven Years War the British used a lot enslaved soldiers as well. And the Spanish had regiments of freedmen soldiers, some of them revolutionary Haitians.

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1 hour ago, Jean Ribault said:

If we can't have whales in the game because it's unethical, then I guess we need to consider removing the TUNA too ?  Just silly.

Better ... If we can't have whales in the game because it's unethical then I guess we need to consider removing also pirates.

So you are straigh right: the "ethical" argument here is just silly as the ones that cry against hunt simulation video games and then play GTA V.

PS: this does not imply that I support the introduction of whaling in the game. It is a thing that does not have a particular appeal for me.

Edited by victor

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6 hours ago, maturin said:

There's just no particular reason for whaling to be in a naval combat game set in the Caribbean. It would either be a lame afterthought with no detail, or complex and costly feature creep on an epic scale.

Whaler NPCs would be nice, but you would need to retrofit a ship model for them.

I wouldn't say that something different than naval combat couldn't have a reason in the game because I think that new content can give players a opportunity to live another virtual life than that of a navy officer or a trader/crafter. But you are right, to make whaling not a fake feature it actually has to have good gameplay mechanics to make it worthwhile. Like own instances and the player doing the actual whaling instead of just pressing a button. With that comes a truckload of others things like animated 3d whale models, whaling boats, harpoons bla bla bla. So like you said a complex and costly feature creep and very low on the priority list imho.

Then the question if whaling was actually a thing in the caribbean? Most hunted species mainly lived in different regions respectively were far more numerous in other parts of the oceans.

Then what do we do with the gained resources? Whale oil, meat, whalebone and maybe the expensive ambergris of spermwhales. Just new trade resources with no actual use. Good for trader/whaler hunters and a new income source for PVE players but nothing really new and useful.

Edited by Cecil Selous
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-i am very strongly against whaling IRL, or for that matter any similar or worse actions, but i have no problem whatsoever with whaling in games. I don't actually hurt neither players nor whales.

4 hours ago, Odol said:

As for slavery [...] the War of 1812 actually was partially about that.  The British were intercepting slave ships headed to the Americas, and setting the slaves free.   Thus crippling the US, Dutch and Spanish economy.

- 1812 war and slavery... no. It might maybe have been used as a justification, or propaganda.

That some related attacks were carried doesn't make it one of the reasons of the war.

Btw i recommend Pierre Berton two volume work on the subject, the invasion of canada and flames across the border. Good stuff despite being dated ( 80s)

3 hours ago, victor said:

Better ... If we can't have whales in the game because it's unethical then I guess we need to consider removing also pirates.

-i'l just remind that there is an argument to be made towards the ethics of pirates in a world and society that they might consider unethical, at least for some of them, and without resorting to the romantic popular imagination. Many a pirate has stated their reasons for become a pirate when they were tried, which is often their utter poverty and exploitation, of course mainly by the rich, and their will, should we say right, for a better life, not to mention freedom ( from landowners etc more than from the government ). Then of course there is the whole democracy vs kings... it's been discussed elsewhere, just saying as a reminder.

Edited by Captain Jean-Luc Picard
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10 hours ago, Captain Jean-Luc Picard said:

-i am very strongly against whaling IRL, or for that matter any similar or worse actions, but i have no problem whatsoever with whaling in games. I don't actually hurt neither players nor whales.

- 1812 war and slavery... no. It might maybe have been used as a justification, or propaganda.

That some related attacks were carried doesn't make it one of the reasons of the war.

Btw i recommend Pierre Berton two volume work on the subject, the invasion of canada and flames across the border. Good stuff despite being dated ( 80s)

-i'l just remind that there is an argument to be made towards the ethics of pirates in a world and society that they might consider unethical, at least for some of them, and without resorting to the romantic popular imagination. Many a pirate has stated their reasons for become a pirate when they were tried, which is often their utter poverty and exploitation, of course mainly by the rich, and their will, should we say right, for a better life, not to mention freedom ( from landowners etc more than from the government ). Then of course there is the whole democracy vs kings... it's been discussed elsewhere, just saying as a reminder.

Well, TBH actually almost every criminal (in history and now) claimed and claims to have (their own personal) reasons for their acts. But having a reason is not equivalent to behave ethically. Well, maybe we are getting too much in the philosophic stuffs, but basically that's the concept.

If I claim democracy and freedom to rape, steal, murder and then spend everything I grabbed just to get drunk in a tavern with rhum and whores ... well ... I could have had my reasons to become a pirate, but ethics it's another stuff.

Problem is that now people tend to mess up concepts and think that the final purpose of an action, or the reasons that induced a person to behave in some way, are the only thing to be held as morally relevant. But things are not so simple.

Edited by victor
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17 hours ago, Przemo said:

Why do you assume that someone do like you do?

https://gyazo.com/836230627f1d2609b69b6230ba39df1e

~1 hour upwind in 2nd rate from Tumbado to Champeche. (no nation towns near) 30 mins of grinding hosti. ~~1 hour sailing back.  3h to play PvE.

Open world sailing shuld be 30% faster.

Bad timing. I would just sail with the wind instead of against it

Also I dont trust these websites since they are mostly old and the timecalculation is mostly wrong. Thats also why we couldnt use them in rvr

Also there are several ports between tumbado and campeche. Its your decision to do a long range attack first. Instead of this 3h pve you could also take something halfway and then jump to campeche. A moveable outpost isnt something special.

In the end it all comes down to planning and its also your leaders that make a mistake with a 3h attack on a port jf its not necessary becahse like you now it creates demotivation.

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4 hours ago, victor said:

Well, TBH actually almost every criminal (in history and now) claimed and claims to have (their own personal) reasons for their acts. But having a reason is not equivalent to behave ethically. Well, maybe we are getting too much in the philosophic stuffs, but basically that's the concept.

If I claim democracy and freedom to rape, steal, murder and then spend everything I grabbed just to get drunk in a tavern with rhum and whores ... well ... I could have had my reasons to become a pirate, but ethics it's another stuff.

Problem is that now people tend to mess up concepts and think that the final purpose of an action, or the reasons that induced a person to behave in some way, are the only thing to be held as morally relevant. But things are not so simple.

Not every pirate was raping, or for that matter even murdering, some made it a point to capture ships and crew untouched by forcing them to surrender.  Sometimes more for practical reasons than a good heart. Sometimes their terrible reputation was of their own invention for that very purpose, sometimes it was an "embellishment" by the authorities. I'm not saying of course that there wasn't unethical horrifying stuff, rape etc, or even in the best case just refusing the recognize your king, mutiny etc

Indeed everyone has their reasons and always thinks that theirs are good, but that's precisely why it's important to keep in mind that pirates, from their own point of view, had ethics.

Ethics in their purest definition are no more than not causing harm since we are able to perceive and understand harm ourselves, but of course there is no such person who hasn't caused any harm, or a case where causality, points of view etc come into play.

Also since you mention it note that morals and ethics are two different things, morals are very much personal.

I guess it would be more accurate to say that both pirates and countries were ethically wrong, but both were morally right.

So i guess your point about removing pirates for being unethical stands XD

But you get my reminder XD

Edited by Captain Jean-Luc Picard

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31 minutes ago, Captain Jean-Luc Picard said:

Ethics in their purest definition ....

This is not the place to answer you, since there are at least 5 valid different definition of ethics according to moral philosophy. In fact. moral and ethics can be seen as different things only just if you accept some theories of modern individualism (i.e. the ones concerning the possibility of an absolute free-will of men). Of course I am aware that such theories for a lot of people - maybe including you - have become part of the so called pre-comprehension of reality. But that does not mean that they are the only possible basis for the definition of ethics.

So I limit here to highlight that the meaning of ethics that you point out is just one of the simplest (not to tell simplistic) ones. I'd say it resembles some sort of "divulgative kantism" with a huge injection of relativism (that - as a matter of facts - kills almost all the Kantism in there).

Anyway - getting back to the topic - my argument is based on a rather simple logic: in a fictional game where there are pirates, making moral problems in introducing whaling seems to me a little contradictory. I do not want to remove pirates, I simply say that having whalers in a game that includes piracy is not something that could/should hurt the sensibility of players.

Edited by victor
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