"Fire as she bears!!!"

[Æthlstan]

One thing I think is missing from the game from a realism perspective is skilled gunnery.

In real life, the gundecks were broken up into batteries. Each battery had a captain and each gun had a lieutenant or midshipman. Orders were passed from the captain, to the gunnery officer, who gave the order to fire to the different decks and batteries of the ship. The captains would acknowledge the order and ready their guns to fire. This involved figuring the distance and windage on the fly and calling orders for any elevation or positioning adjustments.

Depending on the order, if its a full broadside, the captains all watch 1 man on their deck, when the signal is given, the guns fire as rapidly as possible, one after the other, from front to back or back to front depending. The elapsed tome from a broadside on the victory was less than 2 or 3 seconds if I remember correctly. The only reason why you did not fire all guns exactly at the same time is out of fear of damaging the ship.

While "rolling front fire" and "rolling back fire" did exist, it was more similar to infantry "fire by file," by which each gun lieutenant or midshipman would aim their gun and wait to fire until the previous gun had fired, as well as judge the roll of the ship and the angle to the target. The lieutenant or midshipman was responsible for firing only when his gun was aligned to hit the target. That was the entire point of that form of fire. The order given for this in the Royal Navy and American/Continental Navy was "fire as she bears"

What does this mean for gameplay? Well. It should be possible for me to order my guncrews to target a ship and fire as the gun points at the best target.

Example, I am executing a stern rake. As captain, I select a specific point on the enemy's stern as my target. My gunnery officer prepares the crew for the target and as I begin my turn, I give the order "fire as she bear" As my broadside guns are presented to the target, each gun fires as it gets to the best angle (as judged by the LT or Midshipman in charge of the gun). If there is an enemy in range of the other broadside, I could also give an order for that target to be engaged in the same manner, so that each broadside is firing as it bears.

This would look almost exactly like the rolling front fire currently in the game, except that the rate of fire would be dependant on how fast the ship is turning.

Surprisingly, or perhaps not, it was possible for gun crews to screw this up. This was corrected by repeated training at every opportunity, even while sailing from one place to another. Reload speeds were also practiced. Gun crews that did not practice became slower and less accurate.

How would this work in game? We know officers are coming someday. Perhaps once you have a gunnery officer, you can use these kinds of firing modes (Full broadside and "fire as she bears" [i know there is an easier term for that I am forgeting]). Accuracy and speed of reload could be determined by upgrades, skill of the gunnery officer (basic/exceptional), and "training."

Each ship would have to be used on a regular basis in order for its guncrews to maintain peak performance. Say, each day the ship isnt used, you lose 10% of reload speed and accuracy. Combat with the ship increases proficiency, either PvP or PvE, depending on how much the guns were fired.

Gunnery officers as well as the officers of the batteries played a huge role in the effectiveness of this kind of fire. Maybe, these officers can be killed. Even the gunnery officer. If a midshipman or LT is killed, that gun's performance drops significantly. If the captain of the battery is killed, that battery's performance drops significantly. How is this shown in game? Simple. If it is a LT or Midshipman, the 1 cannon doesnt quite keep up with its battery (fires late, reloads a bit slower, etc) . If the battery captain is killed, that battery can no longer fire simultaneously and performance levels of the individual gun crews in that battery drop.

If the gunnery officer is killed, simultaneous broadsides become ragged (batteries may fire simultaneously, but decks will not) and performance of the gun crew as a whole will drop steadily over time until simultaneous broadsides are impossible to pull off, and batteries will get orders late, to the point where you cannot successfully use the "fire as she bears" command. This could mean that you would be limited to to rolling front/back fire modes or even single shot.

If you lose the majority of your battery captains and gun officers, as well as the gunnery officer, effective gunnery becomes almost impossible. This can be fixed tho, with a "repair" called "Reorganize." This uses the remaining officers on the ship to patch the chain of command and get a working system again. Some or most guns may no longer have a gun officer, and the same penalties would apply, so that you could order a simultaneous broadside, or fire as she bears, but neither would look pretty nor perform nearly as well as they did when you had your full compliment of officers. This could only be used once. This means that at some point in a battle, you could be so torn up that you lose the ability to fire effectively or at all, and must attempt to escape. Maybe, if enough officers and/or crew are killed, the ship becomes crippled and must strike its colors. Maybe a friendly ship can transfer crew to the crippled ship to enable it to keep fighting.

I am not suggesting a switch to POTBS mechanics. I dont know what those are aside from not being able to control the aiming of your guns, and instead shooting at a section of ship.

With what I propose, you would aim simultaneous broadsides in the same way you do now. "Fire as she bears" involves choosing a "bulls eye" on the enemy ship that your guns will aim for. IT WILL ONLY WORK IF YOU ARE EXECUTING A TURN OR PASSING MANEUVER. You are essentially telling all your gun officers not to fire unless their gun is facing a specific point on the enemy ship. So if you try to order it while broadside to broadside (matched speeds), for example, only one gun on each deck, if that, would fire.

Why institute this system? It is realistic, and would require more skill to use. You would have to know which specific point of the enemy vessel would be best to target given armor and angle. If you choose a bad angle, or a heavily armored section, you wont get results. WITH MORE REALISTIC ARMOR CHARACTERISTICS, as we are currently testing, it is even more important to implement this kind of system. Maybe all the stuff with gunnery officers, battery captains, and gun officers is a little too in depth for a video game...but I think even the casual player would have fun with it.

Crew is hard to kill, so if you have concerns of taking a stern rake and suddenly being crippled...that shouldnt happen unless you're a smaller ship takijg a rake from a SOL

[Ned Loe]

Manual Gun Aim in Naval Action I believe is Finalized and I do not think it will be changed to any easier arcade system. The more you sail the ship the more you will feel when to shoot, where to shoot and what presets to make before approaching enemy.  

 

ex. I am closing on enemy ships stern from Left to Right with wind behind me. I preset - 100m, Fire From Front to Back, Switch From Full to Battle sails and wait to hit T (break). All this gives me perfect timing feel and in most cases I unload whole broadside into enemy ship stern.

[Æthlstan]

Fire as you bear isnt "easier"

Manual aim broadsides remain unchanged, except now they are faster and more realistic.

Realism is not "arcade"

I addressed this when i said I wasnt suggesting POTBS mechanics.

This has been the only game I have played pretty much since the steam release, so I too know how to use "rolling front/back fire" properly. The difference is, with the new armor mechanics, the best window of opportunity is now too small. Especially because it is soooo easy to adjust your angle when recieving fire that slow.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Æthlstan

[GrapeShot]

I prefer the current system.

[Æthlstan]

This is simply a hyper realistic proposal

It is not arcade-y in any way

It is not easier

Manual aim, rolling front/back fire modes still exist

Reload speeds, accuracy, etc can now be improved based on how much you use the ship and the quality of your gunnery officer.

You can now order larboard batteries to fire on a target as you turn and then "forget"it while you ready a broadside on starboard. The fact that you cant accurately fire both larboard and starboard batteries simultaneously is inaccurate. Dont try to tell me its possible. You cant "split" two enemy ships sailing abreast of each other at matched speeds and fire both broadsides at the right moment. The [ and ] hotkeys dont automatically adjust for elevation and they definitely dont let you lead the target.

You could do all that in real life but you cant do it in this game. All I am proposing is a system that would allow that.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Why would I ever use any mode other than the one you're proposing?  It's basically auto-aim and auto-fire once the pickle has been mashed.

[Æthlstan]

No, auto fire, manual aim. The captain gives the order to the gunnery officer "hit the enemy at that point"  and "fire as she bears" In game, the player aims much like we do today, clicks on a specific part of the ship except the guns dont fire right away. This is just like real life. They fire as the ship bears on the target. Meaning the player has to make a turn or be passing the enemy ship. Accuracy will never be laser accurate. If the angle to the enemy ship changes, the fire becomes much less effective

 

 

Broadsides are sped up almost to the pace of a heavy metal drumbeat. 

 

 

all I propose is that we use these ships as they were actually used, if we are going to have armour characteristics that match what was actually used

[akd]

Gunnery is in players' hands in this game. You are both captain and gunner. It is not an issue of realism, but of keeping the game skill-based. Each individual gunner would face problems of timing and coordination to successfully fire as his gun bears. Instead of transferring this problem to AI RNG (which most would hate), it is kept in player hands. How often would a real life gunner hit a point designated by the captain? Answer: almost never.

Anyways, you can accomplish the same thing with skill and practice in game. I'm guessing you haven't been raked by someone who knows what they are doing yet.

[Æthlstan]

Thats true. The skill level of most players I engage is pretty low. They rely on overwhelming odds to sink targets rather than skill.

For example. In a gros ventre I escaped 3 constitutions, a trincomalee, and a renomee that had me pinned to land against the wind. They got close to boarding me a few times but... idk. It was sad.

When I get ganked in a combat ship, since I don't have a constitution yet (server move) I'm usually facing overwhelming BR odds. They dont do stern rakes all that well and I am able to dodge most of the shots in the broadsides. However, that has a lot to do with the rate of fire vs the speed of engagement. I can turn faster than their broadside. A frigate isn't exactly nimble enough that a Connie wouldn't be able to empty a full broadside into its stern. With the new system and the importance of angles, most of the rounds that do hit have no effect.

People are complaining about the new armor system and penetration. That it takes too long to tear down armor and sink a vessel.

The devs are making the armor more realistic but we can't use the ships realistically. Not being able to control rate of fire is even more frustrating than a D&D style accuracy computer when rate of fire is what determines whether or not all your shots will hit at the proper angle. Since it is so slow, and because a smart player will recognize his stern is open to a rake and thus work to minimize his exposure before it even happens, the window for stern rakes against a skilled player is smaller than how long it takes for a ship to fire its broadside. There isnt a way to combat that when trying to rake at 100m. Which should be doable regardless of skill level. Ships just didnt turn fast enough to avoid a well drilled gun crew's stern rake.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Æthlstan

[Fuzzyhead12]

i would like to see a faster rolling fire, but that firing like she bears, would add to much variation in it, since it needs some kind of helping and autoadjustment after the firing comand, this is exploitable by "modders" seen in WOT (autoaim/autolead mod) aswell opens the queastion how to compensate this mode, will gunner less accurate, do we need an officer, how does crewlost work on this mode, how odes cannonlost work on this, what is with rolling and waves

 

 

your sugestion will open up some question, and these must be adressed. I dont like the atetude of the "its new we wont take it" group, its a forum so we shall discuss, and not speak past each other.

[Captain]

Having the computer automatically fire each gun when it knows it will score a hit is bad. Ie, firing as you bear. 

 

Like the guy said, your 'gunners skill' is really your skill in moving the ship and selecting which fire settings, sail setting etc will result in the guns bearing at the same time they fire. 

[Æthlstan]

Having the computer automatically fire each gun when it knows it will score a hit is bad. Ie, firing as you bear. 

 

the computer doesnt fire when it knows it will hit. It simulates a gun officer firing when he THINKS he will hit. There can and will be misses if this system is implemented, as well as early/late shots and poor accuracy depending on conditions

 

Like the guy said, your 'gunners skill' is really your skill in moving the ship and selecting which fire settings, sail setting etc will result in the guns bearing at the same time they fire. 

 

For the most part I agree, but with nearly authentic armor performance, you would think that we could have nearly authentic gunnery performance, especially since authentic gunnery performance was the best and pretty much only way to effectively take down an enemy vessel, especially SOLs. 

As I said, the fact that a frigate can swing its stern around and cause most of a Constitution's fire to be ineffective on a stern rake, in any wind conditions, is stupid. If you are dumb enough to show your stern to a constitution's broadside you should always get the crap raked out of you if that broadside is ready to fire. Right now, due to the slow rate of fire, there is no level of skill that can keep effective fire on a skillful frigate captain's stern. I know because I am that frigate captain. Not the best, but good enough.

[Rikard Frederiksen]

I'm generally in agreement with Æthlstan on this one, and can understand where they are coming from. However, I don't think there is a need for a whole mechanic, but for firing times of a broadside to be tightened. It feels ridiculous on a single-decker with a 9-cannon broadside that the last gun will fire 4 or so seconds after the first gun. Gun-captains will have several indicators that it is time to fire - the order, if they can hear it (command system vs. ears deadened by gunfire/lingering powder smoke from previous firings obstructing ability to see visual signals), the smoke/flame of cannons firing, and the vibrations of said cannon recoiling violently across the timber decks. Applying a lit linstock/yanking the landyard on a lock does not take 3-4 seconds, and the finely mealed powder used for priming ignites very quickly, so the delay should be minimal. As Æthlstan points out, the long delays can mean that a well-timed broadside loses a large amount of its firepower, which nullifies being a superior position to rake a target.

 

Thus I'd say tighten up the delay between the first and last guns firing, but if something needs to give as compensation due to a potentially greater amount of the broadside striking, then the accelerated reload times we have could be decelerated. If you're raking you should gain the full benefit from being in such a position, not lose a significant amount of firepower because of the long delays between the order being given and all of the guns firing.

[SphinX]

Or, instead added AI RNG into gunnery, just add another toggle like we have for convergence and fire mode, that changes firing speed. Set it to arbitrary numbers that would give 1st rates an option for a 3s broadside, a 5s, and a 7s. So you line up for a rake, set your convergence, fire mode, and then firing speed.

 

Smaller ships would obviously have even faster firing speeds, given the number of guns.

 

Perhaps even decrease accuracy based on the speed you're trying to fire the guns at, the faster you fire, the less time you're spending waiting for maximum accuracy / the gun to be dead on target, therefore you lose accuracy at the expense of RoF.

[Æthlstan]

The faster the broadside the better the accuracy, as gun officers will not be blinded for as long a period of time and will have a better picture of what their piece is aiming at.

[Bulwyf]

Its a great idea because it is exactly what they did for a moving target.

[Rebel Witch]

please dont change the game mechanic like OP suggesting. i think just tighten up (speed up the salvo) the firing a bit and leave it at that.