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Fargo

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Everything posted by Fargo

  1. Reviews

    A week ago: "Ratings were higher (70%) and dropped to 50 after inflation cutting patch. I honestly i don't give a **** about anything else except about making the main audience happy. So if players want money and easier access to ships so be it."
  2. Naval Action Finance News

    Not necessarily inflating, but this is the major money printing machine. Inflation depends on how much money people sink over the same period of time. Thats basically all money used to gather resources, or that goes to npcs in general. While resources are directly related to ships, the amount of money sunk by resource gathering directly depends on the amount of ships lost. So whenever you loose a ship, you sink money equal to its resource gathering value. When youre ship is boarded, it remains in the game and you only sink money equal to the resource value of its cannons. When more money gets printed than sunk, thats inflation. When you stack resources, thats not a money sink, because you could always exchange those resources back into money (Goods never loose quality or rot, they remain forever). This means that until labour is limiting production, money inflation directly results in inflation of goods. How prices raise not only depends on money inflation. If money would loose value equally to goods, prices would probably stay the same. In theory, cause at some point people just wont sell or buy anything anymore.
  3. Reviews

    Its just that this way of development is never going to work, and devs dont realise this/dont want to realise it. Making decisions based on majority requests, ignoring all logic and argumentation, can only work when everyone is an expert for everything, and when everyone is objective. When you show people that spend hours to figure out possibilities, pros and cons, and more hours to make reasoned suggestions, that you dont care, productive players arent going to stay. In general when you compare numbers in the forum with actual player numbers, majorities become minorities. About 300 people online on average over 23 hours means there are 2-3k total players. Do you know the dilemma when engineers tried to improve planes in WW2? They observed the damage on returning planes, and strenghtened parts that received most damage. Until at some point they realised that damage on these parts probably doesnt matter, cause these planes survived though heavily damaged. It turned out that the opposite is true, parts with fewest damage had to be strenghtened, cause damage on those was much more critical. Its similar for NA, cause when you ask players that are still playing while there are serious issues, these players probably dont care about those issues much, tell you not to change anything, and it becomes less and less likely to improve. Its fine to define an overal goal or direction for the game together with the community. But then you have to stick to it. When a goal is defined you can simply figure out the best possibility for anything by purposeful comparison of pros and cons. When multiple options turn out to be reasonable, then you can make a poll. If we want economy for example, we cant make all ships super cheap. We can talk about what ships should be cheaper than others, but the overall balancing needs to be right and figured out by observing reality. We can discuss what the long time goals should be, but figuring out the actual balancing needs to be done by pure data. Ranks for example are no long time motivation when 90% of the server has max. rank, and this percentage can just be figured out, and can even be calculated/predicted when you know average playtimes. If its supposed to be a long time goal is the only question that can be discussed, but what else should be its purpose?!. Until this is changing, its very unlikely that NA makes progress. When i would do a review i would do it based on the steam description. When this says realistic sandbox, hardcore, and player driven economy, the review isnt going to be positive. Not because of my personal opinion, but because it simply is a bad game based on this, it made no progress in this direction over the last years, and its unlikely to become this game in the future.
  4. I dont think this is a problem. You are basically palying multiple persons acting for you in multiple harbours, it makes sense to control them simultaniously. And we can already do this from outposts. I think its a good idea.
  5. That you cant imagine something doesnt mean its not possible. I sold 40 - 50 ships for profit per month purely using the capital market after the wipe. Even with way more expensive ships it was noticable that demand decreased with time making it more and more difficult. The problem is you cant make ships expensive enough, when people dont loose ships. When no ships are lost on a PvE server for example, ships that never sink or rot with time basically would have to cost infinite stuff, otherwise its just a matter of time until demand is gone. If we cant increase PvP/RvR to make people loose more ships, ships will always be too cheap. Its not important, but people think it is. Take all those items that got wiped, they became worthless. Without a wipe they would still be there. Same is going to happen with goods youre stacking now. Its pointless. Ofcourse you keep up stacks for flexibility or as a buffer, but i dont see the point to keep up more materials than i can use within the next weeks. And there is a problem when you stack too much. Goods could loose value. In general if economy would be balanced, people wouldnt be able to stack that much. When firstrate would be so expensive that fleets would consist of mainly 3rd rates for example. Assume gold would be a limiting factor for first rates, what do you think how fast people would try to make profit on the market an sell stuff they dont need in near future.
  6. See when all prices would become reasonable, you could buy everything from the market. Then you also could start to sell stuff you dont need. Instead of stacking everything to infinity, you would make profit instead that lets you buy from the market when you need to fill up your stacks. Nothing worse for you, but youre actually supporting the whole nation. What is a reasonable price? Again thats relative. When your clan could sell ships for a certain price, materials sold for less labour value become reasonable priced. Same goes for materials, sub materials and resources. Then youre basically doin what im doin as a free shipbuilder. Buying for reasonable prices is everything if you want so, aiming for a good labour margin. This only requires you to know what youre selling and buying for.
  7. What is fun about crafting what other people tell you to craft, for prices that other people tell you to craft for, with materials other people organise?! No decisionmaking involved. Sure you can make wrong decisions on an open market, but exactly that makes it fun. Risk vs. reward is what keeps motivating, and enables you to learn and improve. Thats what a serious businessman would do. Admin does not need to reason his claims, so we cant argue with him nevertheless.
  8. @Peter Goldman Thats not player produced goods. Once again, assume a working market. Fixed npc prices and even production rates for most demanded goods are the problem here. Im explaining it, once again youre just saying i know im right and this will happen. Your posts proof to me that you dont know what youre talking about. Im just pointing out the obvious, there is no way to do shipbuilding and business anymore in a way that is fun and interactive. And youre even suggesting to avoid the market. How can u tell in the next post economy isnt broken?! Sorry, but its impossible to discuss like this.
  9. Seriously, even those guys knowingly selling greedy do more for the nation/market than you do! If there is selling something for a high price, just put up your own contracts and undercut those guys! Selling for a high price when there is no competition is not a problem at all, thats just rational. A problem are people that look at it, whine, and do nothing for whatever reasons. When people buy for high prices, you only are allowed to blame those guys. Its the buyer that defines a price, not the seller. The seller relies on people beein able to buy.
  10. You still dont get the point. Look up the post i quoted redii, there i explained whats wrong with that. I get that you dont care about it, but atleast try to be objective, to understand that other people do. Thats not true, you still dont realise what a working market is. Free LH has no advantage, it doesnt matter for how much you exchange it, everyone is generating the same amount of labour with no quality differences. If you think around the cornor you would atleast profit from a larger general player base. Trading has nothing to do with trade ships, all you need to do is buy and sell smart not even leaving the capital. Thats actually fun compared with mindless trading from npc to npc. Yet again you dont understand. Thinking that wellfare is helping anyone is very shortminded. When you knowingly sell lots of iron for 60, while people would buy it for more, what about other new players that try to sell iron for the market price of 100? Those assholes are simply acting rational. When you put easy profit on the market, you shouldnt blame anyone to make use of it. The best you can do for the market is setting contracts with the only goal to make profit, because then there is competition and prices actually can drop when there is enough supply. Assume a working market without massive inflation. Stuff is cheap when either there is lots of supply/competition, or people dont need those items. If you buy cheap stuff, your doin people a favour that didnt expect their stuff to sell so fast. Then they realise that the market is empty and produce even more of those items. You basically raised prices by faking demand, on a high cost for you. Without massive inflation you would think about that a little longer. Once again, thats how a broken economy looks like. It just looks like this, cause there is no competition. And people are not necessarily greedy, many just dont know what they are selling/buying for, cause the game doesnt tell you.
  11. Youre not referring to what im talking about. Im talking about maximising profit in a working economical environment, youre talking about abusing a broken economy?!. Dont you see that youre just proofing how broken it is? Thats all i wanted to point out. Money and all your stuff became worthless already. You buy materials, not resources. Resource cost of a 5th rate is about 100k btw, bellona about 250k. And you must not forget labour cost. When you use 2k LH to craft a ship all alone, for a labour value of 300g/LH that costs you 600k gold. You dont directly loose 600k, but you loose a potential profit of 600k. Also it doesnt matter if you can do a bellona for 100k, when you cant sell it for more than 100k. So whats your profit.
  12. Im not blaming clans for anything, im blaming mechanics promoting not to use the market. But you shouldnt carry it to extremes, trying to organise everything. Its hard enough with low pop to get a market running, even if perfectly balanced. "Wasting time with crafting and trading", is this all you connect with it? Using the market simply means buying and selling stuff. You neither have to leave the port, nor does it require time. A working market would help clans too btw. Do you think you gain advantages from internal economy? Thats wrong. In general its not a difference to supply 10 people with 10 people, or 1 guy supplying himself using the market. Its not a difference if everyone gives labour away for free (clan), or if you sell and buy labour for 1000 gold/LH. On the other side all advantages a working market brings would effect everyone, including clans. Youre advise is to get hired by clans? So youre admitting that economy is broken? Thats all i wanted to point out... You dont understand, and youre not a free shipbuidler acting on the market. Its not about making random profit, its about profit compared with other goods. You dont sell ships for less than you can sell basic resources for, cause its a production chain. Thats simple math. When i can sell resources for 300 g/lh, i have to sell ships for atleast the same. Ship cost doesnt matter, its just important what you sell your labour for. You dont gather resources as a shipbuilder btw. if you want to make profit, and greed is not effecting market prices at all.
  13. I want you to realise how broken it is, instead of blanishing. I am a shipbuilder, and you should trust me when i say that i would have to sell ships for that prices. Its simple math. And i wont discuss this with one of the most greediest persons i know.
  14. Why are you blanishing it? There is a single crafted ship for sale since two days. And a handful of resource contracts barley worth 100k tax. I dont keep track of it, but atleast some are there for a while. It just matters if there is player trade or not. But ofcourse clans dont care. Everyone is collecting resources to craft the materials he needs, and contacts a shipbuilder he knows. That is what it comes down to. Isnt there even a list in sweden with shipbuidlers crafting for mats? Thats working for you, but not for solo players, new players or anyone expecting a working player market or beeing able to do his own business. How shall this work, you advise every new guy to join a super rich clan that will supply him basically for free? Do you really think people want that? You can withdraw economy from the feature list if this is how the final economy looks like. See thats why burdening all responsibility on the community is not working, they dont really care. Why is nobody reacting when it already became impossible to act as a free shipbuilder?! Im just trying to point out the obvious here. Guess its kind of a dilemma. People playing this game dont care about economics, otherwise they wouldnt play this game.
  15. Online numbers, battle numbers, combatnews showing losses, rewards/hour, resource value of ships and cannons, all observable. Playtime is an assumption, but peoples argument is that its more casual friendly now, so 2-4 hours should make sense. It doesnt even effect total numbers. When npcs fill my contracts, i pay taxes aswell. For example buying teak in basseterre via contract, or an european trader that is immediately filling my contract. I dont see stuff on the market, thats the point. You would need to sell about 3000 cannons for on average 4000 g/cannon each day to explain only 500k income.
  16. Not much when 5th rates were selling for 1,5kk and a cannon set for about 200k. And thats what you would have to charge to make profit as a shipbuilder. But people are neither buying ships, nor selling mats.
  17. I mean 1kk isnt really much. When i would buy mats and sell ships for actual prices, i alone would pay 200k tax in phil each day.
  18. Regarding PvP activity, here a few numbers: Approximately 2-3k total players casually playing 2-4 hours each day are loosing less than 150 ships in probably more than 2500 battles each day. Thats a average ship lifetime of more than 10 days. If you assume that about 30% of ships are lost in a PvP battle, about 80% of battles are PvE. In terms of economy, 2500 people are earning approximately 2000kk gold each day + 300k combat marks, probably more. Thats enough to gather resources needed for 3000 Victories + Long cannons, and enough marks for 2000 Wasa, while actually less than 100 ships (boarded ships dont count) need to be replaced. @rediii Do you know what your ports are making money with? Is it actual economy, or people buying/selling upgrades/books expensive, buying from european traders , or setting large mark contracts? When i look at philipsburg, economy is as dead as in gustavia. No ship market, no material market, just a few resource contracts.
  19. Tax

    Only labour needs to be calculated. You know the base resource value and the amount of labour for every good, therefore you can figure out a labour value for each good. You could simply calculate an average LH value of whats selling on a nations market and base the tax for private trade on it. By implication the market trade does not fluctuate when people can avoid it.
  20. Tax

    I doubt anyone really thought about it, its basically the same simple system as always, you pay fees for placing contracts and ship. Just money goes to clans instead of AI. Its cheeky that this got advertised as a new tax system. Its not even a tax, but a fee system. A proper sales tax would: Tax goods when they actually sell, not when a contract is placed. Mark goods as taxed, so tax is only payed once. - Little complicated, but could work well together with a smuggler mechanic. Restrict/punish the trade/use of untaxed goods to not promote bypassing of the market. - Reputation seems to be a good way, while a reputation system in general would open many further possibilities. Maybe a risk to loose the goods.
  21. Naval Action Finance News

    Thats not how it works. Either there is competition, or there isnt. You can only raise prices when you buy everything that is sold for lower prices. In the end its not the seller, but the buyer who defines how high prices can raise. If you are able to organise a small population to keep prices low, it does not negate the fact that they would be able to pay much more, and thats just not a free market anymore. I can only talk for sweden, but i guess its even one of the larger nations. The ship and material market is empty, there is literally 0 competition. Blanishing is not going to change anything. Observing rewards, and how many ships are lost each day shows that more than 10 times more money is entering economy than its leaving the market. Its not going to improve, its just a matter of time until people and clans are saturated. Ships must not sell for the same prices than before. Why shoud i care about selling 5th rates for 400k, when i can just do a simple 100% risk free mission for more profit?!
  22. Naval Action Finance News

    As you said, random prices dont make market prices, when people arent actually buying for that prices. So these tables require a working economy, and by implication if people arent actually buying for these prices it indicates that its not working. It probably became meaningless already. What i can tell so far is that materials definitely sell slowly for 350 g/LH, while the ship market is completely empty without any demand. I have only an essex for sale, but that should sell pretty fast without competition for 350g/LH. I doubt its ever selling, and i doubt i would be able to sell even a 1st rate for 6-7 mio. Im counting 4 material contracts in total for sweden! And competition is not happening when people dont need to care about money.
  23. Naval Action Finance News

    Hull repair for 3700 equals labour value of about 350 g/LH already While it was about 100 g/LH prepatch, 350% inflation already after 2? weeks only lets us speculate. Mark value using a basic 5th rate as reference worth 75 marks accordingly rises to about 13k gold/mark. Im exiting to see if it can raise further after european trader price level is reached. A fixed resource price niveau would usually mean a stable labour value... if those resources are crafted. But when more resources get bought not consuming labour, labour could do whatever it wants.
  24. I dont know, maybe even more ships are sinking now, its just unlikely with current repair, escape and gank favouring mechanics. The point is that its effecting economics. Changed ship lifetime has the same effect as changed cost or income.
  25. I dont see how these comparisons are helpful. Lots of things changed, ships dont sink that often anymore for example. In the last PB i saw, less than 10 ships sank out of total 50, probably repair fitted, ships. Capturable ships now are reducing ship value. Crew is basically for free now, cannons more expensive. You couldnt make millions with trading prewipe. Selling marks is a huge income boost, also increasing inflation while ships can be bought via marks. Its not just about pure income and cost. Whats the problem to take the actual situation, analyse it, and make adjustments that make sense while not the whole environment is changing?! But why am i still arguing... you just admitted that you dont care. Atleast thanks for that statement, now we can deliberately abandon all reasoning and stop using our brains.
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