Independent Players?

[Prater]

I have not played EVE so I only have ideas picked up off the floor, heck I couldn't even get the term Goonswarm right I see your point that if a "prize" can always escape - what's the point of hunting prizes.

 

However from the "prizes" point of view - always getting sunk/captured would lack a certain amount of fun if it were a forgone conclusion - yes?

 

I do plan on traveling in a small(ish) fore/aft ship so I hope to at least have a 50/50 shot at escape if I meet you and Leviathan and Raatha on the open sea (you know say if I am sailing under a British flag)

 

Agreed.  You should have a good chance if you keep your head about you.  If you are in a fore-and-aft ship you should get away unless you make a mistake.  Unless you are sailing the cutter.  Anything other than the Trinc, Constitution, Surprise, Navy Brig, Brig, Privateer, Lynx and Yacht aren't really solo ships because of their slow speed.  Speed will be most important to a solo player.  Hunt down those who are weaker and slower, run from those who are stronger.  Avoid the snow at all costs.  That is a group fire support ship, or a ship for harbors and perhaps shallow areas where frigates cant get you.

 

Edit:  Though, I guess I could see a mixed squad possibly posing difficulties.  A Trinc for Downwind, Surprise, Privateer, Lynx or Yacht for Close hauled.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Prater

[SueMyChin]

I'm not going to get involved in this thread as we'll have to wait and see how the game plays before we can truly judge but one reason that I've used to argue why large groups aren't (or shouldn't, as we have nothing from the devs on this yet, but they should be thinking about it) going to be so practical, is the ability hunt in groups and not lose money.

 

You're going to need to make money from your exploits to run a ship. The more players in a group the less reward they get from any prize capture, rewarding smaller groups or solo players. Obviously any navy ships are supplied anyway but I get the impression the OP isn't worried so much about navies grouping up on solo players.

 

Here's a more verbose explanation from another thread:

 

Superiority in numbers exists as a military objective as they always have a goal and are rewarded so long as it's achieved, regardless of cost, loss and with no need to plunder resources. We'll never eradicate the pack mentality when it comes to the navies.

However, given the need for resources, it can only work in a group of hunters if there is sufficient reward. This is why it didn't work well for age of sail privateers relying on prize to get by but when for example, England came calling for help to defeat the Spanish Armada, Privateers worked as part of the defending fleet. Their mentality, would have always been to prefer safety in numbers but only one role encouraged it, or to put it another way, one role rewarded it.

That's probably why POTBS (add to that EVE, where there is also no running cost but large expense as the result of ship loss) was rife with 'gankers'.

There is a difference to highlight between running cost and replacement cost as a hunter. One (running cost) encourages you to actively engage to make money, alone being more lucrative (you basically double your reward each time you half your numbers) if you can pull it off. The other (replacement cost) has the opposite effect, the fear of having a lot to lose promotes a safety in numbers response instinctively.

If only replacement costs were in game I would expect a prevailing 'gank mentality' because nothing discourages it, everything encourages it (economically).

I'm sure that with running expenses accounted for and a prize system that mimics the historical one, the ability to get by hunting in large packs will be reduced. To what extent, we won't know unless it's added and tested.

Edited March 20, 2015 by SueMyChin

[Reki]

Well my take on this is IF you get into a battle wouldn't it be better to not know who is AI and who is not? or is it so you can ignore ai and hone straight in on the player? whats the point in escorts then?

 

 

Guys, i know that i have bad english, but seriously, its not me, who can't read this language here.

**

Don't touch escort. 

**

Things we talk about is ability to identify player in OS as player, but not just ship. Escort is one different theme and even different mechanic, since escort won't be himself visible on map. One ship with E letter in OS. Admin's words.

Those, who have a bit deeper thoughts, should understand one thing, and it will be said here again and again, its not simulator, but game. Here things shouldn't be completely same with how it works in real life, just because game will die immidietly. No matter what captain can see, or can not see from his tube, is spotted ship npc or not, there is one very very VERY simple thing in this question. Ppl, who wan't pvp, doesn't want to play famous "shells" game. In our part of world it calls "thimbles" and exactly this game was on picture i left here. When player, who want pvp, will be forced to play thimbles to find in some ship pack, where exactly enemy player is, when he see, lets say, 3 ship figure in OS same time, and then will be forced to kill all wrong choices npc fleets, he will delete this game in rage and maybe even format his HDD to be sure. Realism should go to hell and left this place to practicality, when things is around main gameplay. Main gameplay idea is pew-pew with players, not thimbles or lotterys with hiding among npc damn fleeters, shifty tricky merchants who want their safe road. Pvp players hate fight vs NPC, and game shouldn't be like cheater with thimbles.

[SueMyChin]

Guys, i know that i have bad english, but seriously, its not me, who can't read this language here.

**

 

When player, who want pvp, will be forced to play thimbles to find in some ship pack, where exactly enemy player is, when he see, lets say, 3 ship figure in OS same time, and then will be forced to kill all wrong choices npc fleets, he will delete this game in rage and maybe even format his HDD to be sure. Realism should go to hell and left this place to practicality, when things is around main gameplay. Main gameplay idea is pew-pew with players, not thimbles or lotterys with hiding among npc damn fleeters, shifty tricky merchants who want their safe road. Pvp players hate fight vs NPC, and game shouldn't be like cheater with thimbles.

 

It makes perfect sense.

 

Not only does the escort system pretty much force you to fight NPCs at some point anyway but there are likely to be situations where you have to engage with them for progression.

 

You also have to think about this both ways. If you can see who the players are then you can also see who the NPC players are and you'll get players simply farming NPC's and shunning PVP combat, a problem that's plagued many a MMO game.

 

I would suggest that we can not see if it's NPC or Player (and his name) until you're within a certain distance (within hail) of him.

 

For those of you who want no part in NPC combat there should be certain areas of the map where NPC will not spawn nor follow in escort. This is a compromise that suites everyone and is better for the gameplay in general too.

[Prater]

Why is people who want to avoid pvp combat "a problem that's plagued many a MMO game"?  If they don't want to fight pvp, then they should be able to see that I am a player and run from me if they want to avoid pvp.  I might catch them though.

 

Like I said above, and Reki as well, if you can't tell (unless you are at very close range), then pvpers are going to quit because it is just a shell game and boring as hell.

 

Though, I guess I agree with this:

 

 

I would suggest that we can not see if it's NPC or Player (and his name) until you're within a certain distance (within hail) of him.

 

Depends on what hail distance is.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Prater

[SueMyChin]

They farm NPCs at little risk, amass huge wealth and it undermines the economy completely. See Elite Dangerous.

 

Unless there is an option to play offline (and I believe their should be, many would have use for it) then people will have to accept fighting other players at some point. Are we going to make allowances for the players who never want to PVP as those who never want to face NPCs, they're just as likely (if not more likely) to quit if it's unavoidable?

 

You will at some point have to face NPS, it's the nature of the escort system at least.

 

As mentioned, a fair compromise, and it will need to be a compromise, is designating an area for PVP only.

[Prater]

Just as long as the world is open, and everywhere else is pve and pvp. 

[Oliver H. Perry]

They farm NPCs at little risk, amass huge wealth and it undermines the economy completely. See Elite Dangerous.

 

Unless there is an option to play offline (and I believe their should be, many would have use for it) then people will have to accept fighting other players at some point. Are we going to make allowances for the players who never want to PVP as those who never want to face NPCs, they're just as likely (if not more likely) to quit if it's unavoidable?

 

You will at some point have to face NPS, it's the nature of the escort system at least.

 

As mentioned, a fair compromise, and it will need to be a compromise, is designating an area for PVP only.

 

That's assuming that NPCs carry huge wealth sir.  If you enable a system that requires entry into PvP prone areas to increase the reward rate, then yes, while those who may remain in safer areas can happily and quietly gain wealth, they'll do so at a very reduced pace compared to those who get out into more dangerous areas.  Think of it this way - the run from Portsmouth to Calais is quite short, heavily patrolled, and pretty safe.  As such, the funds you might gain running pasengers or cargo through there are minimal, they're too close to have a huge resource difference that might drive up prices.  Compare that to, say, running cargo from Portsmouth to Boston.  Less patrolled, far less safe, greater chance of interception by the enemy, and the distance means larger market profit opportunities.

 

NPCs should provide far lower income than players.  NPC ships, I think, should be small brigs or cutters, with cargo and value that is quite small.  Players should be the ones running larger ships, Indiamen full of valuable cargo, etc. The way to amassing serious wealth should be in large scale, PvP enabled cargo carrying, and Privateering/Navy Attack/Defense of that cargo trade.  There should be a PvE game, but it should be on a far smaller reward scale than PvP.

[Tom Pullings]

1) is true, doesn't mean we can't discuss it. 2) Your own team mate disagrees with that as do I. 3) It will get small FAST. 4) To a point, perhaps less so than you think. 5) Absolutely, I agree.

 

1) it just means our discussion will be necessarily quite speculative. The admins have weighed in, though, with what I would think would be more than sufficient assurance for the concern posted.

2) I don't see anyone disagreeing at all in the whole thread on this point. It would seem reasonable that any individual player is fair game for any pirate or pirate group, at the cost of any pirate or pirate group being hunted by all nations. But any individual player not a pirate will be part of a nation, and so will only be "hunted" by those he or she encounters from nations at war with his or her nation if they are so inclined and have the advantage. How would anything else results in anything at all like a naval action game? You seem to be worried that groups of players will roam the seas hunting down solo players regardless of their nation. Since we don't have the game yet, it's impossble to say this WON'T happen, but I see literally nothing stated by anyone that should lead one to worry that it would. Again, the admins seem to have a completely opposite vision of the game.

3). This is just unsupportable speculation on your part. There's no way you could know this will be the case. We'll have to wait to see how large or small it gets. It will need to be small enough that those sailing in the busy areas see others or there won't be much point to the game. But the admins have also emphasized many times that exploration and mapping will be part of game play as well. I suppose that those so engaged will find the world pretty empty except for fellow explorers.

4). I don't even know what you mean here. To a point? Where do you see any talk from admins about players not being part of a nation? This is a game that models the 18-19th century naval world where NO ONE just built a big ship and sailed around. All merchant and naval and even privateer ships sailed under national flags or were pirates.

If you are worried that there will be large groups of pirates hunting the open seas, I think there is only one group so far formed as a specific pirate group. But, as was stated, every player would seem to be able to be part of a nation and so enlist national support to protect him or herself from such groups. And there would have to be very many pirate groups indeed for the solo player to be constantly in danger. And those groups would be hunted by ALL nations.

I suspect your concern is more about whether a solo sailor will be in danger of encountering a group of vessels from a nation at war with your nation. My guess would be yes. But what else would you want, since in 5) you agree that this should be the case? If one or two groups come to dominate the seas (highly unlikely), just sail for the same nation and you will be safe from them at least, without having to associate with them in any way. And if you are sailing a fast fore and aft ship, as you stated is your intent, and encounter an unfriendly group, turn into the wind and keep the weather gauge or sail to the nearest friendly port as fast as you can. You may not make it, but if there is no risk, why play? There are sailing simulators. I have one. It's fun for a little while. The appeal of this game is that it models the high risk/high reward world of sailing for country or profit in the age of sail. It can't come soon enough for me! I can't wait for that first chase, whichever side of it i find myself on.

[Magnum]

Wall, I couldn't even power through reading it.

 

1. OF COURSE IT"S ALL SPECULATION UNTIL THE GAME IS ISSUED.

 

2. Raatha said: 2) no clans other than pirate clans have any intention to hunt individual players.

 

post 108 - Prater (his team mate) said: "Don't sail what you can't afford to lose, and don't make yourself such a juicy target if you don't want to be attacked by organized groups.

 

Those two posts seem to disagree with each other.

 

3. Based on what? - You don't think the NA world will get populated - THAT seems like "unsupported speculation" .... seems like just more argumentativeness about speculation to me.

 

4. See here is where NOT including the ORIGINAL posting confuses things - I can't help it if you don't know what I meant in a post replying to Raatha - ask him if he got it - since you are on TS together?

 

I'll give you a break (hint) -- I don't think ALL the nations of that era will get "flags" and a player will be able to play for "undecided" AFAIK.

Edited March 20, 2015 by ampaholic

[Prater]

2. Raatha said: 2) no clans other than pirate clans have any intention to hunt individual players.

 

post 108 - Prater (his team mate) said: "Don't sail what you can't afford to lose, and don't make yourself such a juicy target if you don't want to be attacked by organized groups.

 

Those two posts seem to disagree with each other.

 

It isn't disagreeing.  I have no intention of singling out individual players.  If an individual player singles himself out as a juicy target worth my time, that is his  issue.

[Tom Pullings]

Wall, I couldn't even power through reading it.

 

snip...

 

2. Raatha said: 2) no clans other than pirate clans have any intention to hunt individual players.

 

post 108 - Prater (his team mate) said: "Don't sail what you can't afford to lose, and don't make yourself such a juicy target if you don't want to be attacked by organized groups.

 

Those two posts seem to disagree with each other.

 

snip...

 

4. See here is where NOT including the ORIGINAL posting confuses things - I can't help it if you don't know what I meant in a post replying to Raatha - ask him if he got it - since you are on TS together?

 

I'll give you a break (hint) -- I don't think ALL the nations of that era will get "flags" and a player will be able to play for "undecided" AFAIK.

 

It doesn't seem that we are still having an actual conversation, but I'll give it one more try.  Perhaps actually reading my post would have cleared up a couple of things, though.

 

2) There is no disagreement I can see, for the reasons I gave above.  Bottom line, it appears your concern, to be blunt, is that TDA will hunt you down in some kind of organized way.  I'm not sure anyone can say anything to reassure you sufficiently that will not be the case.  But the way you can ensure that WON'T be the case is to sail under the US flag.  Which leads to point 4)

 

4)  What has anyone involved with this game said anywhere that would lead us to suspect that players could sail for "Undecided" except in the sense of being a pirate?

 

P.S.  And I don't think I've EVER been on TS with Raatha.  Not that I would mind being on TS with him.  No offense, Raatha.  You seem like a very cool guy to me.  

[Magnum]

It isn't disagreeing.  I have no intention of singling out individual players.  If an individual player singles himself out as a juicy target worth my time, that is his  issue.

 

So it is not your fleet's intent to "check out" individual players to see if they are a "juicy" - you will just call it "him singling himself out" if he just happens to sail into your sight and just happens to be "juicy".

 

So it's accidental if your fleet captures a single player? OMG.

[Magnum]

 

4)  What has anyone involved with this game said anywhere that would lead us to suspect that players could sail for "Undecided" except in the sense of being a pirate?

 

 

 

Well, so you have information that all players will be required to "pick a team" before they can even cruise Open World at all? Where did you get that info?

[Sir Darric Vandhelm]

So it is not your fleet's intent to "check out" individual players to see if they are a "juicy" - you will just call it "him singling himself out" if he just happens to sail into your sight and just happens to be "juicy".

 

So it's accidental if your fleet captures a single player? OMG.

If someone takes a risk then gets caught in the wrong place, wrong time, then that's the game. same could be said for individual pvp. If your in an area that has pvp enabled, you will just need to be prepared. This is true of every open world pvp game I have played.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

So it is not your fleet's intent to "check out" individual players to see if they are a "juicy" - you will just call it "him singling himself out" if he just happens to sail into your sight and just happens to be "juicy".

 

So it's accidental if your fleet captures a single player? OMG.

 

No, he's saying that if someone sails out alone in a heavily laden Indiaman with no escort and a few TDA Privateers notice them, and they're a fair target, that person has singled themselves out for special attention by running a valuable ship and cargo with inadequate protection.  Please calm down and let's get back on topic.

[Magnum]

I am fully aware that if I am sailing under a French flag and I have an "encounter" with 6 British players - I will likely be sad after. I am MORE concerned that I wont be able to get crew in a French coastal city because DeGrim and his group have hired them all, or that I won't be able to get a decent ship because another FRENCH team has bought them all.

 

I understand the battle for king of the hill between countries at war (I have studied the era) - I could see discussing the balancing between groups and individuals under a single flag.

 

I really hope we see mechanics that cause crew loss over time because you didn't pay them, or feed them, or give them liberty. I would also like to see ships out on patrol (looking for prizes) have a "cost" of wear and tear on the boat and crew.

Edited March 20, 2015 by ampaholic

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I've long maintained a maintenance cost that scales by ship size for time spent operating this ship.  Costs of that nature could be used to prevent too many ships with high Ratings from being on the sea as it would take specific, dedicated, and specialized gameplay to maintain enough funds to keep them from falling apart or being deserted.  

[Magnum]

I've long maintained a maintenance cost that scales by ship size for time spent operating this ship.  Costs of that nature could be used to prevent too many ships with high Ratings from being on the sea as it would take specific, dedicated, and specialized gameplay to maintain enough funds to keep them from falling apart or being deserted.  

 

Yes, the wandering in the desert of this thread has helped me clarify my "concern"

 

If there is a in game "benefit" to being in a group - should the game mechanics just ignore this causing all but the most diehard individualist players to join groups to gain these benefits - or - should the game mechanics impose a cost to being in a group sufficient to "balance" the scales.

 

Some benefits:

 

A) easier to find prizes if you have 6 scouts out and about

2) easier to cap a prize if you have a 2 - 1 advantage.

C) easier to "lean" on a shipyard to produce only for you if you "control" 26 Captains. (just an example, boyz)

 

Some possible game mechanism's to offset:

 

A) Having 6 scouts on patrol "costs" in crew food, wear on ship etc. - 6x more - than one ship on patrol.

2) With 2 ships capturing 1 - they each have to pay a brokerage cost to dispose of the prize. Where if you cap a prize by yourself , you just own it outright.

C) I don't have a clue what would offset such Machiavellian workings - I hope somebody could come up with something.

Edited March 20, 2015 by ampaholic

[Grim DeGrim]

If we can, we will monopolize the markets in our ports. Part of our victory over Britain will include economic sanctions too.

If you fly a French flag, get in touch with us and we'll be sure there is enough to go around for the Bleu, Blanc et Rouge.

The success of the Nation is greater than the Fleet, which is greater than the Individual. But it starts at the bottom and builds to the top.

[Grim DeGrim]

This spawned an idea: as a merchant trading goods, it's my preference to have pricing based on loyalty to nation.

EG, zero loyalty to France b/c you're British, then highest pricing.

Or, if I can set what is akin to "Standings" for groups, I can be pricing on that... Essentially tiered prices.

[Magnum]

This spawned an idea: as a merchant trading goods, it's my preference to have pricing based on loyalty to nation.

EG, zero loyalty to France b/c you're British, then highest pricing.

Or, if I can set what is akin to "Standings" for groups, I can be pricing on that... Essentially tiered prices.

 

I think any merchant should be able to charge what the "market" can carry - even the black market.

 

Game labs will probably need to seed the original resources into the game, but hopefully they will trickle down to everyday merchants - so gouging can commence

Edited March 20, 2015 by ampaholic

[Grim DeGrim]

Not disagree. But I prefer to gouge the opposing nations and price for fairness at home. But what inevitable happens is that they come to my home for the good deals we offer to nationals...and buy.

My goods. My sale. My price. And it's different for different people based on reputation & loyalty.

At least, i'd like that flexibility.

[Charles Lafayette]

/tiphat Grim.

 

If the culture of your faction is a good one then independents will be treated with respect and helped out when needed.  I sailed as an independent French NO in POTBS and always felt welcome by all the guilds within the faction.  I prefer being independent because my play time can be sporadic and there are times I just want to do my thing.  Just have a reputation of chipping in and helping out when and where needed and it will be returned in kind.  Lord knows I sacrficed more than my share of ships trying to help  fellow French captain(s) that got jumped.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Charles Lafayette

[Tief N Tote]

there will be trade and a pve element to I think independents like myself will still enjoy the game