the torpedo are too strong !!

[liaxelot]

h

hi all

i think the torpedo in the game are too strong ! or more exactly too efficient !

the torpedos never misse, never false, never hit without explosion, torpedo explode too easier specialy at short angle .

i never see a dud torpedo in game ! is it not implement ? next upgrade perhaps ?

it should be ! today the torpedos boat and destroyers are too dangerous for battle ship, more than in reallity

I tried many missions with destroyers against a big ship, me with desrtoyer or AI with these destroyers, the big ship lost each time !

the torpedo need to have dud percentage !  sure ! specialy when they hit with bad angle like in reality , or it is guided torpedos with magnetic detonat.......?

 

[SiWi]

I think this is very different, depending on the "when" you fight.

 

Later game, it is hard to hi single targets and good torpedo protection and flooding protection makes them almost worthless.

 

As the point that there are no duds:

true but true for the guns as well.

Could be a point for the future (thou one which probably would lead to alot of bug reports...), thou I would only view it worth it, if you can influence it.

Aka, make decisions that makes a dud more or less likely.

[madham82]

55 minutes ago, SiWi said:

I think this is very different, depending on the "when" you fight.

 

Later game, it is hard to hi single targets and good torpedo protection and flooding protection makes them almost worthless.

 

As the point that there are no duds:

true but true for the guns as well.

Could be a point for the future (thou one which probably would lead to alot of bug reports...), thou I would only view it worth it, if you can influence it.

Aka, make decisions that makes a dud more or less likely.

Agreed. Haven't noticed 100% hit probability either, especially at range. Realistically if you let a torpedo armed ship in under 5kms, missing is unlikely against a big ship. Protection and damage are out of balance, especially at high levels currently. Reload mechanics and balance also need to be overhauled, and will be at a later point. Duds should be simulated too. So yea, torpedoes need a good deal of work. 

[disc]

I'd far prefer there be no duds, and lower reliability simply be represented as lower damage per shot.

[liaxelot]

16 hours ago, SiWi said:

 

As the point that there are no duds:

true but true for the guns as well.

 

yes i m agree !

but a shell 600kg of steel at 800km/h  make damaged even without exploded ! a hole les  than an explode but damaged as well

a torpedo at 50km/h make just a big noise like "bang" if it not explode ! nothing else !

And I think that the failed torpedo was much more frequent than the shells... specialy in earlier periode and in the us navy  for   exemple !

so to equilibrate the game the torpedo would have percentage dud

my opinion !

 

[Cpt.Hissy]

Just because US navy didn't bother to test their torpedoes doesn't mean everyone should have crap torpedoes in game.
But occasional glances and failures could have a place, and be gradually mitigated by research over time.

[1MajorKoenig]

21 hours ago, liaxelot said:

h

hi all

i think the torpedo in the game are too strong ! or more exactly too efficient !

the torpedos never misse, never false, never hit without explosion, torpedo explode too easier specialy at short angle .

i never see a dud torpedo in game ! is it not implement ? next upgrade perhaps ?

it should be ! today the torpedos boat and destroyers are too dangerous for battle ship, more than in reallity

I tried many missions with destroyers against a big ship, me with desrtoyer or AI with these destroyers, the big ship lost each time !

the torpedo need to have dud percentage !  sure ! specialy when they hit with bad angle like in reality , or it is guided torpedos with magnetic detonat.......?

 

I disagree.

 

I find Torpedos very good in this game - useful as they should 

[Stormnet]

Personally torpedos are a mixed bag for me. They sometimes deal massive damage and destroy a large ship, and most times they miss it or deal insignificant damage.

As said above, big ships with strong torpedo protection tank hits like nothing, but even with sonar III they might struggle to dodge them. Small ships with weak protection don't tank them at all, but their maneubrability (I swear I can't write or spell this word correctly) helps them dodge them.

I think torpedo protection is (relatively) balanced, as it is very heavy, so you will have to sacrifice quite a lot of tech to bonk off torpedos.

I think one of the major problems for torpedos is relieably hitting a target. Sometimes its a hassle to just get the AI to fire "Comon DDs! That BB is shelling you from 1 km and taking you down 1 by 1, FIRE THE ******* TORPEDOS AT IT."

I get torpedos are more short range weapons, but why do the ships always fire them in concentrated volleys? This is great in short range, as it is likely all of them will hit a ship (and KO it). But if you are fighting a maneubrable ship, or at a distance, or against a fleet with destroyers scouting around, it just makes it easier for them to dodge. Why cant they sometimes fire them more scattered, so at least one or two hit?

If it is at a range, the bigger "potential hit arc" makes it hard for all of them miss because the target turned 1 degree. Maneubrable ships will have to do more than a U turn to dodge them and that will mess a little their aiming and formation. Tight fleets attacked by scattered torpedos will become really disorganized as every ship tries to turn their own way to dodge the Bonk Machines, but then end up going against each other and their formation is ruined (this could even become a battle tactic: Fire torpedos at random to mess up the enemy battleline and then attack them).

[madham82]

22 minutes ago, Stormnet said:

 

As said above, big ships with strong torpedo protection tank hits like nothing, but even with sonar III they might struggle to dodge them. Small ships with weak protection don't tank them at all, but their maneubrability (I swear I can't write or spell this word correctly) helps them dodge them.

I think torpedo protection is (relatively) balanced, as it is very heavy, so you will have to sacrifice quite a lot of tech to bonk off torpedos.

 

I get torpedos are more short range weapons, but why do the ships always fire them in concentrated volleys? This is great in short range, as it is likely all of them will hit a ship (and KO it). But if you are fighting a maneubrable ship, or at a distance, or against a fleet with destroyers scouting around, it just makes it easier for them to dodge. Why cant they sometimes fire them more scattered, so at least one or two hit?

 

The reality is there is no such thing as "tanking" torpedoes IRL. Even the best BB designs with elaborate protection won't survive repeated hits (4 or more) on the same side of the ship from ship/sub launched torpedoes. Compared to the game, where I have personally performed tests that show at high protection levels they are being hit 60+ times before they sink. Hence the balance issues. 

 

As for the volleys, 99% of the time that was how they were deployed since they are not accurate at typical engagement ranges. I think what you are after is what many have asked for, more options on the firing arc and individual control over tube mounts (so you can fire them sequentially, etc...). 

[Stormnet]

4 hours ago, madham82 said:

The reality is there is no such thing as "tanking" torpedoes IRL. Even the best BB designs with elaborate protection won't survive repeated hits (4 or more) on the same side of the ship from ship/sub launched torpedoes. Compared to the game, where I have personally performed tests that show at high protection levels they are being hit 60+ times before they sink. Hence the balance issues. 

 

As for the volleys, 99% of the time that was how they were deployed since they are not accurate at typical engagement ranges. I think what you are after is what many have asked for, more options on the firing arc and individual control over tube mounts (so you can fire them sequentially, etc...). 

Yeah, sorta of... My bad.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Stormnet

[liaxelot]

ok everything you say about launching a torpedo is ok and i agree

what i said is that the game needs a percentage of failed torpedoes! as in reality and this percentage would increase with the angle of strike the means of escape with the torpedo is precisely to impose a strong angle of attack on them which prevented their detonation! this by turning towards it or by moving away but by increasing their angle of attaque so that it ricochets without exploding failing to avoid them

at that time magnetic detonators were very young and very inefficient when they existed

Edited March 16, 2021 by liaxelot

[Stormnet]

1 hour ago, liaxelot said:

ok everything you say about launching a torpedo is ok and i agree

what i said is that the game needs a percentage of failed torpedoes! as in reality and this percentage would increase with the angle of strike the means of escape with the torpedo is precisely to impose a strong angle of attack on them which prevented their detonation! this by turning towards it or by moving away but by increasing their angle of attaque so that it ricochets without exploding failing to avoid them

at that time magnetic detonators were very young and very inefficient when they existed

I mean, I could add another layer of realism to the game

But to be honest, adding failed torpedos would also mean that there should be dud shells.

Personally I dont hate the idea, but I think would be frustrating to get a hit and a pen on a ship, only for the shell/torpedo to be a dud and do next to nothing. Players already deal with the Aiming/Hit RNG, the Pen RNG, and the Damage RNG (the last two not really that RNG, but still employ some level of randomness). 

 

[liaxelot]

actually the shell have the dud  systeme

some hit but don t explode inside and it depend of angle !! the system is not aplly to the torpedo

[madham82]

1 hour ago, liaxelot said:

actually the shell have the dud  systeme

some hit but don t explode inside and it depend of angle !! the system is not aplly to the torpedo

That's not a dud per say, that's a failed penetration or ricochet. There were actual duds, think it was the British who found a lot of their shells failed to explode in WW1. I've not heard much about them other than that, so maybe someone else will provide examples.

I would say that torpedo duds were a far more prevalent issue. I can see both sides of the argument, but I always favor realism. I just understand this still has to be a game first. 

[SiWi]

personally I don't think I would like to potentially lose a 40+ hours campaign because RNG decided that none of my shells actually worked...

Sure this would be confirmation bias, but I think it would "feel" worse and it would probably feel worse then not hitting in the first place (thou also RNG).

So if implemented, I would hope it to be optional.

Having said that: it could be use to tipp the balance to "older" guns aka smaller guns, since one can argue that the most recent guns always should have the most failures.

An other way to make it an balance feature would be that one can lower running cost by lowering ammo quality, but through that raising dud likeness.

 

 

[liaxelot]

12 hours ago, madham82 said:

That's not a dud per say, that's a failed penetration or ricochet.

YES ! !   but it is not apply to the torpedo WHY it my thought !

[Zuikaku]

20 hours ago, Cpt.Hissy said:

Just because US navy didn't bother to test their torpedoes doesn't mean everyone should have crap torpedoes in game.
But occasional glances and failures could have a place, and be gradually mitigated by research over time.

Do you think USN was the only one experiencig problems with dud torpedoes?

[Draco]

19 hours ago, madham82 said:

That's not a dud per say, that's a failed penetration or ricochet. There were actual duds, think it was the British who found a lot of their shells failed to explode in WW1. I've not heard much about them other than that, so maybe someone else will provide examples.

Almost. British shells were actually too good at exploding, because the explosives were so sensitive that they would explode without input from the time fuze and go off when the shell hit the armour but before it had a chance to penetrate deep into the ship and cause catastrophic damage there Could actually be cool if this was a thing with cordite I shells (the explosives they used) but I digress...

Torpedo duds should definetly be a thing. Especially with electric torpedoes, and especially right when they have been invented for a given nation. Possibly as many as half of all american mk.14 torpedoes fired from 1941 to 1944 were duds, and the same with german electric torpedoes in the norwegian campaign, although the germans at least realized it and fixed it afterwards, whereas the american bureau of ordnance simply went "there's absolutely nothing wrong with our torpedoes, it's you submarine skippers who aren't using them right!" for basically half the war, to the severe detriment of their u-boat efforts against japan.

However, I don't actually think they're all that overpowered. At least not for as long as we get to see when the enemy ship fires them, which we currently can as soon as they've been identified.
Historically, torpedoes fired at long range could easily be dodged by simply changing your course a little here and there, and this works in the game too. You just need to notice when they launch and then immediately turn about 30 to 40 degrees inside them, and then even a twenty torp salvo will glide harmlessly past in front of your ships whilst their captain laughs in gunfire.
The only way to really make torpedoes work right against an intelligent player is to charge in to within 5km under smoke screens and pray to god that you aren't blasted to pieces by their shells whilst you leeroy your jenkins, which for the most part is what happens barring overwhelming numbers advantages, so as long as you keep an eye out for when they are launched and remember to change your course often enough they're pretty easy to predict and avoid IMHO.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Draco

[SiWi]

19 minutes ago, Draco said:

Almost. British shells were actually too good at exploding, because the explosives were so sensitive that they would explode without input from the time fuze and go off when the shell hit the armour but before it had a chance to penetrate deep into the ship and cause catastrophic damage there Could actually be cool if this was a thing with cordite I shells (the explosives they used) but I digress...

Torpedo duds should definetly be a thing. Especially with electric torpedoes, and especially right when they have been invented for a given nation. Possibly as many as half of all american mk.14 torpedoes fired from 1941 to 1944 were duds, and the same with german electric torpedoes in the norwegian campaign, although the germans at least realized it and fixed it afterwards, whereas the american bureau of ordnance simply went "there's absolutely nothing wrong with our torpedoes, it's you submarine skippers who aren't using them right!" for basically half the war, to the severe detriment of their u-boat efforts against japan.

However, I don't actually think they're all that overpowered. At least not for as long as we get to see when the enemy ship fires them, which we currently can as soon as they've been identified.
Historically, torpedoes fired at long range could easily be dodged by simply changing your course a little here and there, and this works in the game too. You just need to notice when they launch and then immediately turn about 30 to 40 degrees inside them, and then even a twenty torp salvo will glide harmlessly past in front of your ships whilst their captain laughs in gunfire.
The only way to really make torpedoes work right against an intelligent player is to charge in to within 5km under smoke screens and pray to god that you aren't blasted to pieces by their shells whilst you leeroy your jenkins, which for the most part is what happens barring overwhelming numbers advantages, so as long as you keep an eye out for when they are launched and remember to change your course often enough they're pretty easy to predict and avoid IMHO.

you mention an important factor... the fact that it is a bit ridiculous how much we know about enemy ships.

I mean what are the odds that you know the enemy has torps in the water, from 15+km away? without your sensors picking it up, that shouldn't happen.

[Draco]

@SiWi Agreed. It's nice for beta testing purposes, but I really don't hope the final game will make quite that much info about the enemy so readily available.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Draco

[madham82]

Or at least is a toggleable realism option, for duds too. 

[liaxelot]

33 minutes ago, madham82 said:

Or at least is a toggleable realism option, for duds too. 

YES an option for dud torpedoe ! i m agree

something else very very important it is absolutely necessary to establish the damage caused by the collision it is completely unrealistic that a ship hit in full flank by another at full speed does not suffer any damage !!

Edited March 17, 2021 by liaxelot

[Cpt.Hissy]

If it's enemy ships, they do receive damage, though still somewhat low.
Friendly ramming doesn't do damage. Probably as a crude workaround for AI constantly ramming it's own ships. I hope it's only for testing purposes and will be replaced by smarter AI later.