Trinc fleets are way too OP with new mechanics

[Koltes]

Yes its doable, but it is so damn hard and we keep loosing ships that it makes RVR only accessible to top clans... Again

I mean we all experienced players and the first time we did it after patch we lost 2 ships. Second time 3 ships...

High penetration makes them hit you on a very sharp angles.
Because they are elite fleet they are faster than you are and there is nothing you can do. They catch up and put you in to wind shadow and then you stop.
I dont really know what can be done about it. But right now I cant see weaker clans being able to sustain fleets and pull flags and chests.

1. Maybe try to change how trinc fleet tags? Instead of being all surrounded (almost a certain death) make entry like in group mission?
2. Lower speed of the elite fleet by 30-40%... 

Suggestions please

-----

What really bothers me is how fleets are now tied to RVR.. I thought the whole purpose for flags was to go away from Hostility and to stop grinding PVE to make PVP???
In reality we spend hours to pull flags. It take longer and cost more to set a PB


 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Koltes

[Lizzo]

7 minutes ago, Koltes said:

I dont really know what can be done about it.
2. Lower speed of the elite fleet by 30-40%... 

Yes please do that!! And one or two fewer gunnery upgrades would help as well

[Liq]

How many players were you? We did one with 6, one of us got boarded within the first 10 min so it was effectively 5 of us lol. Still got it done but took effin ages

The ship that got boarded was captured back, no other casualities

Edited August 24, 2020 by Liq

[Koltes]

5 hours ago, Liq said:

How many players were you? We did one with 6, one of us got boarded within the first 10 min so it was effectively 5 of us lol. Still got it done but took effin ages

The ship that got boarded was captured back, no other casualities

First time with 8. Second with 9. Problem is the tag and the speed of AI. I think its time to lower it. 

Yeah, if it was captured its only half bad. But trouble is, when they tag someone he ends up right in the middle of AI. They all faster. They block his wind. He sits there like a duck unable to do anything.

Removing wind shadow from AI will also work I guess. But the combination of tag mechanic, insane speed and pen and wind shadow is just making trinco fleet broken AF

Edited August 24, 2020 by Koltes

[Thonys]

14 hours ago, Koltes said:

Yes its doable, but it is so damn hard and we keep loosing ships that it makes RVR only accessible to top clans... Again

I mean we all experienced players and the first time we did it after patch we lost 2 ships. Second time 3 ships...

High penetration makes them hit you on very sharp angles
Because they are elite fleet they are fast than you and there is nothing you can do. They catch up and put you in to wind shadow and then you stop.
I dont really know what can be done about it. But right I cant see weaker clans being able to sustain fleets and pull flags and chests.

1. Maybe try to change how trinc fleet tags? Instead of being all surrounded (almost a certain death) make entry like in group mission?
2. Lower speed of the elite fleet by 30-40%... 

Suggestions please

-----

What really bothers me is how fleets are now tied with RVR.. I thought the whole purpose for flags was to go away from Hostility and to top grinding PVE to make PVP???
In reality we spend hours to pull flags.


 

well i can agree in what you say here and there

 

- bouncing :

with the new  penetration ,..the angle for a ball not to hit a full damage run  is actually almost  gone  (it will hit you very hard no matter what you do)

for game play i think we need more bounce when angled (when you shoot it give some miss fires  but the AI is hitting you with almost all balls and full damage from the ball

i mean you hardly can escape from a full hit even from a good distance a angled ship receives a lot of damage...(specialy the normal wood type ship the have no function but only for normal ships against their equals  )

 

- Speed from elite AI vs sail damage

as for the elite AI when you hit the sail it has no effect they seem to go like rockets even when 75% sail left

i think elite Ai need to be tuned down more to reality or buff speed in AI battles for players as well

 

- player: vs turning 

also the turn rates for 3 /2/1 rates vs 4 rates needs to come closer to each other it can not be so that a ingermann can turn on you twice while making a turn (1) in a second rate while the 2 rate is  not even on the dead wind point (half turn)  the gap for the second is just a bit too high and will lose a battle against a 4 rate no matter what especially if it is elite wood type vs normal wood..(i understand that is the purpose of the special wood type , but it is obvious that skill is not in gameplay when those encounters acure it looks more like slaughter) 

i believe it needs some testing just for a good feeling otherwise it will look silly in the end.

also the elite repair amount is way to high its almost fighting a  undestroyable self repairing bunker. (especially on 4/3 rates)

we all need to keep thinking in perspective and not get caught up in the restrictions about one ship versus another particular ship,  existing  in this game .

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Thonys

[Koltes]

2 hours ago, Thonys said:

well i can agree in what you say here and there

- bouncing :

with the new  penetration ,..the angle for a ball not to hit a full damage run  is actually almost  gone  (it will hit you very hard no matter what you do)

for game play i think we need more bounce when angled (when you shoot it give some miss fires  but the AI is hitting you with almost all balls and full damage from the ball

i mean you hardly can escape from a full hit even from a good distance a angled ship receives a lot of damage...(specialy the normal wood type ship the have no function but only for normal ships against their equals  )
Yeah and imagine being surrounded by elite AI ships who can penetrate from all angles. You are in half structure from one broadside of the AI fleet than before you can do anything you are down with fish after the second broadside.

 

- Speed from elite AI vs sail damage

as for the elite AI when you hit the sail it has no effect they seem to go like rockets even when 75% sail left

i think elite Ai need to be tuned down more to reality or buff speed in AI battles for players as well
Actually we have damaged AIs LOcean sails to 50% and he wasnt just keeping up. He was MUCH faster than us going against the wind, THEN blocking the wind, THEN you're left behind and got pulled by other AI.

 

- player: vs turning 

also the turn rates for 3 /2/1 rates vs 4 rates needs to come closer to each other it can not be so that a ingermann can turn on you twice while making a turn (1) in a second rate while the 2 rate is  not even on the dead wind point (half turn)  the gap for the second is just a bit too high and will lose a battle against a 4 rate no matter what especially if it is elite wood type vs normal wood..(i understand that is the purpose of the special wood type , but it is obvious that skill is not in gameplay when those encounters acure it looks more like slaughter) 
Im not sure about turning as I didnt pay too much attention to that, but I found that its become somewhat harder to tack on 1st rates. Supposedly battle sail gives better turn, BUT if you try to tack on 1st rate the power of battle sails is not enough to brig the ship towards the wind and often you cant even get through, let alone achieving positive speed.
 

i believe it needs some testing just for a good feeling otherwise it will look silly in the end.

also the elite repair amount is way to high its almost fighting a  undestroyable self repairing bunker. (especially on 4/3 rates)
Ahh what? AI repairing??? Are you sure it wasnt just Loki? I havent yet encounter AI repairing lol

[Thonys]

6 hours ago, Koltes said:

- bouncing :

with the new  penetration ,..the angle for a ball not to hit a full damage run  is actually almost  gone  (it will hit you very hard no matter what you do)

for game play i think we need more bounce when angled (when you shoot it give some miss fires  but the AI is hitting you with almost all balls and full damage from the ball

i mean you hardly can escape from a full hit even from a good distance a angled ship receives a lot of damage...(specialy the normal wood type ship the have no function but only for normal ships against their equals  )
Yeah and imagine being surrounded by elite AI ships who can penetrate from all angles. You are in half structure from one broadside of the AI fleet than before you can do anything you are down with fish after the second broadside.

 

- Speed from elite AI vs sail damage

as for the elite AI when you hit the sail it has no effect they seem to go like rockets even when 75% sail left

i think elite Ai need to be tuned down more to reality or buff speed in AI battles for players as well
Actually we have damaged AIs LOcean sails to 50% and he wasnt just keeping up. He was MUCH faster than us going against the wind, THEN blocking the wind, THEN you're left behind and got pulled by other AI.

 

- player: vs turning 

also the turn rates for 3 /2/1 rates vs 4 rates needs to come closer to each other it can not be so that a ingermann can turn on you twice while making a turn (1) in a second rate while the 2 rate is  not even on the dead wind point (half turn)  the gap for the second is just a bit too high and will lose a battle against a 4 rate no matter what especially if it is elite wood type vs normal wood..(i understand that is the purpose of the special wood type , but it is obvious that skill is not in gameplay when those encounters acure it looks more like slaughter) 
Im not sure about turning as I didnt pay too much attention to that, but I found that its become somewhat harder to tack on 1st rates. Supposedly battle sail gives better turn, BUT if you try to tack on 1st rate the power of battle sails is not enough to brig the ship towards the wind and often you cant even get through, let alone achieving positive speed.

 

If you fall overboard in open water and you cannot swim, you will automatically sink to the bottom
if you are an accomplished swimmer and you are swimming at 8 knots per hour to your rescue ship you may not make it and not because of your swimming skills but simply because you are killed by the elements such as death by the hypothermia

you can not fool the element of Nature.

i believe it needs some testing just for a good feeling otherwise it will look silly in the end.

also the elite repair amount is way to high its almost fighting a  undestroyable self repairing bunker. (especially on 4/3 rates)
Ahh what? AI repairing??? Are you sure it wasnt just Loki? I havent yet encounter AI repairing lol

no what i really meant was  the elite repair upgrades in the game and the possibility to stag them

 

Another thing that is increasingly being forgotten is the speed of a ship..(historical reference)
in the game it seems that if you want to transport a bunker this is not possible or at least almost impossible
as an example I want to take the victory (both) that goes 8.6 knots in the game but historically sailed 11 knots:
Propulsion: Sails — 6,510 sq yd (5,440 m2)
Sail plan: Full-rigged ship
Speed: up to 11 knots (20 km / h)

it seems we are all carried away with "the numbers" too much. (and restrictions as if i can't have a extra port / upgrade / ecc. ecc. ecc . it seems we are all accepting the down side of everything )

 

it is not about how fast a ship is, but how fast a ship comes to a stop or has to make a turn, here you should rather think of mass.
where an oil tanker takes much longer to stop than a rowboat.
this is far too underestimated in the game and the emphasis is too much on speed in general

[ look at 24 minutes in the movie there is your answer]

what you can also think about is the
think of the draft of a flat-bottomed ship and a deep-lying ship with a keel bottom  for example (the admiral did easily 12 knots instead of 10.6 )

we all need to keep thinking in perspective and not get caught up in the restrictions about one ship versus another particular ship in the game

 

think for example of the indiaman in fleet this ship in ow only goes 15 knots sorry to say it but I don't know how they sail in other countries, but here in the vp they just went at full speed to the east or west and there was no day or wind to lose that was not acceptable
that a fleet then sails only 7.5 knots (15 in ow empty) is not acceptable for any fleet commander. but in the game this is seen as a given without thinking that this is not true. strange it is like a gun can shoot around a corner before it is invented or already invented without honoring the truth.

a other example :

you can make or start a game but if you do not know what the front of the ship is, you really sail in the wrong direction (which you sometimes see in the game with beginners)
this is certainly something that is not reflected in the game, namely the skill of a beginner and a sailor such as Dinark. he knows his ship, but certainly his possibilities I emphasize the possibilities
now that is done through in-game upgrades, but the restrictions on getting there are very limited by the game, something that shouldn't be. Here too, restrictions prevail instead of the given possibilities.

If you fall overboard in open water and you cannot swim, you will automatically sink to the bottom
if you are an accomplished swimmer and you are swimming at 8 knots per hour to your rescue ship you may not make it and not because of your swimming skills but simply because you are killed by the elements such as death by the hypothermia
you can't fool the elements

Edited August 25, 2020 by Thonys

[amosblanco]

What is needed is a rework of AI, which I believe the Admin has promised to do in the very near future. The addition of wind shadows and battle sails, atop of gun penetration rework significantly changed combat strategies, but the AIs remained the same. If developers tune down the penetration, damage output, speed, and agility of those elite ships, I believe those defense fleet would become too easy to be hunted down now and would no longer serve its role of protecting new players around the capital. 
 

You can try using a fireship 🔥. Using a fireship to bait the defense fleet and the rest of players in the group reinforcing later.  It’s a highly effective strategy.

[Captain TShirt]

With the addition of small priv fleets, the big fleets probably don't have to be as fast as they are to protect home waters. Following parameters would probably make them a little more fun and fair, but still challenging.

• Sailing AI of elites
• Tune speed/thickness to be closer to player-achievable parameters for each ship (maybe just a teenie bit faster and thicker than that for funsies -- imagining "level 5" or "level 6" port bonuses on top of "buildable" ship stats)
• Marines 15 + Bo5R mod on boarding, but that's it -- right now they fight like they're crewed by Cyberdemons
• Bring sail/structure damage speed penalties to player-equal levels
• Allow them to repair

That goes double for those elite AI events that no one ever tries twice -- way over-tuned, and hilariously too hard. Big fleets of big elite AI ships that can repair would be scary all on their own; without having to resort to over-tuning their combat characteristics so far outside of the player-crafted/player-sailed range.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Captain TShirt

[Lt Sekiro]

with new mechanique i solo some ocean ia elite with wasa/bellona only

More ez than before for me

[Mr Kemosabe]

Koltes....suggestion....don't sail down wind maybe? 

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

HomeDefenseFleet is not only protection for new players in their capital zone (on PvP server), it is also "endgame content" (if there were 'endgame' at all in a sandbox game with no storyline) for veterans and clans who need wooden chests.

For both reasons, HDF needs to be as hard as  possible to fight.

And I am saying this as someone who can't fight them any more due to their increased speed, like I used to do in small group or even solo. Still, I recognize a purpose for big clans who don't like to do things half-bored but still need challenges on their level.