Mast shots and tactics For everyone who has been demasted.

[nebsif]

+if demasting is nerfed, will rushing count as an exploit then? See where im goin?

Anyway id actually like some tips on this cause I cant demast anything with trinc and surprise - even when in raking position.

Wouldnt it be possible/realistic for the captain to order all gunners to aim for masts individually like in master and commander?

^(for concerns presented http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3085-potbs-refugeeis-this-home/?p=64078 )

Edit: obivously I dont want a demasting magic skill - but say individual control/reticle per cannon in the future? like the WT multi turret+LMGs work if u mess with the settings

[Daveev66]

This game would not make sense without dismasting as a valid tactic. Historical accuracy can be compromised in some ways to ensure a good game but this would be a step too far. Hoping to dismast your enemy was a standard combat method of the age, and as others as said a dismasted ship had effectively lost the engagement and would strike. Therefore it should be a perfectly valid way to win in this game.

 

In fact we want more chance of losing a mast, not to enemy fire but to careless sailing in bad conditions. If you can pull the wings off of an aircraft in a flight sim by stupid power dives then you can and should be able to lose a mast setting too much sail in naval action.

[maturin]

An English painting, what do you expect?

You think they actually had masts and tge artist deleted them?

...

[Ghroznak]

You think they actually had masts and tge artist deleted them?

...

 

All I have to add to this is... "History is written by the victor"

[admin]

Posted just earlier today in the ship painting thread, but maybe better here?  

 

Seems like reality to me, if the painter got his news straight and this isn't just post-battle propaganda.  He did serve in the RN though...

Only started playing this weekend, and have demasted one cutter thus far in PvP light.  Can different sections of the masts come down, or is it all or nothing?

 

 

 

Yes. You need to aim higher and eventually sections will break. They are thinner so harder to hit.

 

Masts don't use probability now for breaking. You have to hit them several times to demast. Some people are using shot logger for this (L) counting mast hits to see if they can demast. 

[SYN_Bloody-Bandy]

All I have to add to this is... "History is written by the victor"

 

Oh, I'm sure the Spanish and French have their own history with regard to Trafalgar.  I'm just not going to bother learning to read French and Spanish to investigate it at the mo.  If you want to, or if somebody can, I would absolutely love to know what the remnants of the loosing side looked like as they limped into port. 

 

Likely not all demasted as portrayed by Buttersworth (yes, that's why I mentioned propaganda in my OP) as I'm sure there is some allegory going on here.  But prove otherwise.

[Reki]

I agree, demasting is a tactic.

 

It's just that people are not used to it. I was in a battle where enemy fleet decided to immeadiatly close the distance. My fleet formed the curved line and targeted the leading ship masts. After the leading ship (santissima) was demasted, the rest of her fleet just went past her, closed the distance and got slaughtered by the rest of our fleet, without their heavy ship to help.

 

The correct behaviour would have been to keep defensive stations near her and keep pounding at us. I have never seen a ship to get sunk by losing masts.

 

Also nice video by RAMJB who used correct tactics in such a case. (this is getting to be a quite common sentence by now) :-D.

Good sir, if you renew your reading skills, which im sure you have, you could use this thread to find one of my posts, where i said, that defending demasted ship is dead idea, because we have here range dead zone in some conditions, which calls windward position. Unlike usual way, ship without masts can do nothing with Kite epic great tactic, which, im sure, even more tactician than demast here.  Its no shame to say that i defeat bellona on my constitution with help of lil snow, just leaving it without masts and shooting from distance, he can't shot me. In cases of fleet it can work in same way.

 

I can only facepalm, when someone talking that demast is tactic. Really. Every dog in this alpha can imagine himself great admiral using overpowered demasting and he call it tactic, but i call it unbalanced OP shit. Tactic isn't about where you aiming hull or mast, but how fleet moves.  Its no tactic in OP things using. Mast sniping is normal way to fight, BUT when it takes time to demast. In our current game build masts haven't any armor, and it means, that same light frigate, which got disadvantage under 1-st rate ship when he shooting hull thanks to armor, can avoid it shooting masts and do much much much more harm to that 1-st rate ship. Its mechanic hole, which will be expluatated by every single rat.And it allready in use. But even beyound this mast have to low HP for large group fights. 

[Prater]

Tactics include not only maneuvering but how you fight your enemy, which includes armaments, range of the fight, targets, etc.

 

And as for tactics?  Just like going full stop to 0% sails to try and shake someone off your 6?  (which doesn't work btw)

[SYN_Bloody-Bandy]

... I can only facepalm, when someone talking that demast is tactic. Really. Every dog in this alpha can imagine himself great admiral using overpowered demasting and he call it tactic, but i call it unbalanced OP shit. Tactic isn't about where you aiming hull or mast, but how fleet moves.  Its no tactic in OP things using. Mast sniping is normal way to fight, BUT when it takes time to demast. In our current game build masts haven't any armor, and it means, that same light frigate, which got disadvantage under 1-st rate ship when he shooting hull thanks to armor, can avoid it shooting masts and do much much much more harm to that 1-st rate ship. Its mechanic hole, which will be expluatated by every single rat.And it allready in use. But even beyound this mast have to low HP for large group fights. 

 

tac·tic

noun \ˈtak-tik\

 an action or method that is planned and used to achieve a particular goal

 

QED...

[Reki]

 

 

And as for tactics?  Just like going full stop to 0% sails to try and shake someone off your 6?  (which doesn't work btw)

is it trolling? or you just had it deep in memory forever? ships with broken rudder is hard to shake someone, you know? stop remembering one single fight, where your group sunk me, or i start to believe you have some butthurt about this.

[Prater]

Rudder has nothing to do with it.  Issue is people who completely cut their sails.  Breaks immersion, makes the game look like Boston Harbor (as the dev's called it), and it wasn't my team that killed you but me, after I told you several times that cutting your sails doesn't work.  But that was your tactical decision that definitely sealed your fate in that match.

 

Cutting your sails to 0 is worse than people who target masts (which there is nothing wrong with and is a completely valid tactic).

[meatpukk]

is it trolling? or you just had it deep in memory forever? ships with broken rudder is hard to shake someone, you know? stop remembering one single fight, where your group sunk me, or i start to believe you have some butthurt about this.

haha. PVP epeen drama already happening I see.

whatever you say Reki, demasting was a real tactic used irl. especially since they wanted the ships intact many times, and broken masts means less morale, less manouverablility and less speed.

since aiming at the rigging was so much used IRL dont you think the game should allow it, and that it is a valid tactic? imo it should happen more often with the frigates. I usually never see any masts falling unless there are some 1st rates around.

[marecek05]

Good sir, if you renew your reading skills, which im sure you have, you could use this thread to find one of my posts, where i said, that defending demasted ship is dead idea, because we have here range dead zone in some conditions, which calls windward position. Unlike usual way, ship without masts can do nothing with Kite epic great tactic, which, im sure, even more tactician than demast here.  Its no shame to say that i defeat bellona on my constitution with help of lil snow, just leaving it without masts and shooting from distance, he can't shot me. In cases of fleet it can work in same way.

 

I can only facepalm, when someone talking that demast is tactic. Really. Every dog in this alpha can imagine himself great admiral using overpowered demasting and he call it tactic, but i call it unbalanced OP shit. Tactic isn't about where you aiming hull or mast, but how fleet moves.  Its no tactic in OP things using. Mast sniping is normal way to fight, BUT when it takes time to demast. In our current game build masts haven't any armor, and it means, that same light frigate, which got disadvantage under 1-st rate ship when he shooting hull thanks to armor, can avoid it shooting masts and do much much much more harm to that 1-st rate ship. Its mechanic hole, which will be expluatated by every single rat.And it allready in use. But even beyound this mast have to low HP for large group fights. 

 

I am sorry good sir, i did not understand very well why is deploying in defensive positions near demasted ship a dead idea. Either everyone is in range, everyone is not in range, or the leeward fleet is using heel to improve their range (btw isn't by your logic also this a OP exploit). Were you referring to having said leeward fleet position as being such an advantage that it counters the defending of the demasted first rate?

 

In any case, demasting was very common (much more common than sinking). I want ships to be demasted, I want them to hurt the players and to force them to evolve their tactics around it. (there must be a reason why french navy insisted on aiming for the sails, rigging and masts.)

 

Demasting is as much a tactic as going for grape shot rakes from stern, or attempting to disable a bellona with a santi by boarding.

 

However, I agree that demasting should be fair. Masts should have armour (according to the size of the ship), there shouldn't be bugs causing it (as the currently suspected unsync shots causing it).

 

It may not be fun to be on the receiving side, but it's realistic. Furthermore I would love for masts to break (sails to tear) when you have too much sail in bad weather, etc....

[Steelfury]

Come on guys, keep it civil. As to demasting, I think it's fine as it is, sure, a couple of ships, focusing fire, can demast an enemy flagship, in open world a frigate will tow the demasted ship, and the rest of the fleet will cover their retreat if it happens early in the fight. Demasting should be common (as it was), and sinking less so.

[Grim DeGrim]

I think the topic can be salvaged, as there is some good commentary here. We can all agree that demasting a ship is a valid game mechanic and strategy. AGREED.

The discussion point, I think, is if the current game mechanics are balanced? Is it too easy to demast with ball shot?

My unqualified opinion is "yes it is unbanced". I say unqualified as I have no "hard data". Anecdotally. I have seen MANY ships demasted (1 per match on average), and that it is the primary strategy used on stormy map against rates.

----

Closing note: focus the discussion on the mechanic.

[marecek05]

I think the topic can be salvaged, as there is some good commentary here. We can all agree that demasting a ship is a valid game mechanic and strategy. AGREED.

The discussion point, I think, is if the current game mechanics are balanced? Is it too easy to demast with ball shot?

My unqualified opinion is "yes it is unbanced". I say unqualified as I have no "hard data". Anecdotally. I have seen MANY ships demasted (1 per match on average), and that it is the primary strategy used on stormy map against rates.

----

Closing note: focus the discuss on the mechanic.

If I remember correctly, the ball shot was the most prolific type of shot used. Bar and chain shots were more of a novelty ammo for special purposes and short distance (chain shot is basically slightly lighter doubleshot range wise).

 

I think the masts should be more differenciated by their position. Part of the mast very close to the deck  should have very high armor rating, to be almost unbreakable by shots (would require serious effort to break the mast on the bottom). However topmasts shouldn't have actually almost any armor.

 

I want to say that I would like to see more variation in the height at which the masts break, by making them easy to break at the top.

[eXnihilo]

As someone who has lost 5 masts in one match (thanks to RamJB ) dismasting is fine.

 

The battle should be about the larger picture and who comes out on top in the end. Each side should use all tactics available that may help them win. Masts are the most fragile part of a sailing vessel and this game doesn't simulate rigging damage. Imagine chain shot in your rigging!

 

I don't doubt it was hard to keep a mast up in any large battle where the forces got close to each other.

 

Sucks to not have masts, but yeah, don't get shot. It's gotta hit something.

[Max Thundercroc]

Just wait until they add in getting your sails tangled together and not being able to separate less you rip off a mast. At least I hope they will add this.

[Reki]

well we just have a draw trafalgar around 20 vs 20 where all our rate ships except one was demasted. We was hard winning on start, then they decide to  kite us one hour, at the and thanks to map resizing we get them and sunk all remain rate ships. frigates just run away again so we got draw. few our mates spend all 3 reps on sails to get 60-80% sails and "turtling" leeward like forever. One victory get only 9 k damage just saailing behinde. I just can call it gay-style play. Best regards to opponent team. They use that "tactic" fine and got theyr hardworked draw, when all our heavys stay floating.

[nebsif]

Yes. You need to aim higher and eventually sections will break. They are thinner so harder to hit.

 

Masts don't use probability now for breaking. You have to hit them several times to demast. Some people are using shot logger for this (L) counting mast hits to see if they can demast. 

 

Thanks for le tip, till now I thought you only have to hit once/twice and that im failing due to hit detection and luck. 

 

@Arisu You were so bunched up or just front facing us it was a crime not to go for masts and sails. Like 1 broadside would rip through two ship's sails at times, if you aim at the hull u'll only hit one ship ^^

[De Ruyter]

Demasting the enemy vessel was something every captain hoped for since it was alot easier to capture her this way for the Prize.

 

Remember that in the age of sail nearly every captain was driven by greed. (even nelson)

 

It should stay in the game. Maybe up the number of hits required so 1st rates cant instantly demast eachother with 1 broadside.

[Reki]

Thanks for le tip, till now I thought you only have to hit once/twice and that im failing due to hit detection and luck. 

 

@Arisu You were so bunched up or just front facing us it was a crime not to go for masts and sails. Like 1 broadside would rip through two ship's sails at times, if you aim at the hull u'll only hit one ship ^^

 

 

Piece of Prater even put like to your post. what a shame. That was pure kite coward game. Well if we had enough time then we could catch all of your remains and sink, but we hadn't. Reason why i post it here is that fights like that is great ilustration of game transforming into wrong mechanic expluatation, instead of health fun gameplay.

 

Just look at this:

no damage from all of your top boats, except perhaps Colonia. To much running. And those high damage frigates was, probably, mastshooters =\ Our heavys was demasted, its reason why they have not so big damage, but yours wasn't. Where numbers?

[nebsif]

1) How about increasing the rate at which the combat zone gets smaller to nerf the kiting? I mean it takes teamwork, some1 making the right decisions when to turn and etc, but on the receiving end its pure torture + it could make unicorns less useless or just leave them out of combat so they dont have to feel bad quitting battle and abandoning their team.

 

2) Yes I did 19k damage in Trinc that battle - I was shooting masts and sails with ball the entire round (did I just sound like one of those I make 10k$ a month from home spam-ads? probably)

 

= PEOPLE YOU CAN GRIND 2x FASTER IF YOU ATTEMPT TO DEMAST!! Way more effective than scratching a Victory's paint at 1km for 5 dmg a ball (dont change it yet admin pls people need incentive).

 

^ I simply want to see what happens when people mostly go for masts, for science and sake of testing (this is primarily a test, not a demo, rite?). You've been lobbing cannon balls at each other till the balls people put inside you weight more than your ship, and then even more - time for more decisive combat. All it takes is for a guy in the biggest ship to tell the plebs to aim a bit higher than usual.

Heard how Brig Mercury "beat" two SOLs? yup, demasting. 

 

@Riku: 

u mad?

[Prater]

If several ships are bunched up so you can get 2 or 3 or 4 ships with one broadside, you would be dumb not to go for it (unless the front one is badly beat up and would sink from a broadside to the hull).  Call him and the others a coward all you want, but it is valid tactics so get used to it.  So is kiting. 

[maturin]

Arisu, I remember you vigorously defending "kiting cowards" not long ago.