Patrol Zone Fix: Ship Durability + Team Sizes

[Tenet]

Patrol zones are stupid right now. One nation brings a bunch of ships, everyone in smaller groups runs away. Rarely people engage in an actual battle.

Once that battle is over, game-over for the losing side. People sink and don't come back. 

Furthermore, Patrol Zone encourages Zerg play, punishing anyone without a group of 10, which is a very big size for the game.

Remember when Admin promised that we can do economy for half an hour, to fight for several hours, when discussing durability balance? 

This should be brought back into the game - in Patrol Zones, to leave PB/RvR and regular OW balance unaffected.

EDIT: Due to feedback below, I believe this is best limited to Nassau and Deadman's Patrols, shallow/5th rates.

Suggestion 1: Patrol Durability:

Give ships fighting in Patrol Zones a separate Patrol Durability counter, using the old rules. 5x 3x for 5th rates.

When you Sink in Patrol Zone, you get back to port in your ship, keeping everything you have, and durability gets reduced by 1 - you only lose the ship permanently on the last sinking.

This will promote people coming back to fight again against anyone willing. This will help 5th rates to be able to produce the same damage numbers for CM rewards as line-ship patrols. 

Suggestion 2: Team Sizes - Patrol Tagging/Battle Rules

Implement special tagging and battle rules for patrol:

Solo-Duel: Individual Player without Group = can be tagged only by another solo player starting a duel (like current inner-circle of patrol). No need to sail through team-zone to get to Duel zone. 

Small-Group: Player in group of 5 or less = can only be tagged by player in another group of 5 or less.

Max-Group: Player in group of 6 to 10 players can = can only be tagged by player in group of 6 to 10 players. 

Solo-Duel closes when battle starts, no reinforcement.

Small-Group any size reaching 5 ships closes, no further reinforcement (even if someone leaves or is sunk). 

Max-Gorup any size reaching 10 ships closes, no further reinforcement (even if someone leaves or is sunk)

This is how the current system "works":

This is how the battles should work, small group = 5v5 slots max.

Edit 2: If this has to be implemented in terms of BR, then I recommend splitting the BR limit according to the above suggestion:

Solo-Patrol becomes the entire zone as described above, regardless of BR. 

Small Group PvP = 500 BR max, add a toggle box in the battle-group UI to indicate small or large, so groups can still elect to start uneven fights if they dare (or expect backup from other nations). 

Large Group PvP = 1000 BR max, working the same as right now, with exception of tagging limitations outlined above.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Tenet

[Teutonic]

Patrol Zones have BR limits.

maybe they could be more restrictive, but currently I don't really see a need for change.

you go there, do some damage - redeem the missions for combat medals, that's the goal.

[Beeekonda]

Just now, Teutonic said:

Patrol Zones have BR limits.

maybe they could be more restrictive, but currently I don't really see a need for change.

you go there, do some damage - redeem the missions for combat medals, that's the goal.

Do we even play the same game?

[Vizzini]

not a fan of combat zones as part of the open water

[Tenet]

16 hours ago, Vizzini said:

not a fan of combat zones as part of the open water

Then get the hell out of this thread. Patrol Zones occupy less then 1% of the map and rotate daily, so you never have to deal with one unless it is by choice. 

16 hours ago, Teutonic said:

Patrol Zones have BR limits.

maybe they could be more restrictive, but currently I don't really see a need for change.

you go there, do some damage - redeem the missions for combat medals, that's the goal.

I don't think you responded to any of the arguments I made. Opinions are like assholes, we all have one.

You don't do damage when you get focused and sunk by larger groups. 

You need to sail through the Group Zone to reach the Dueling Zone. How do you not recognize that as a problem?

Why is 10 players the battle limit, why aren't there activities for easier groups to gather like 5 players?

Do you not realize that this awful setup results in a meta where people start treating the patrol like a PB and bring their RvR ships?

Do you not see the problem from the other side, when you can't find a fight because everyone is afraid of the reinforce?

Do you have any response about the PATROL SHIP DURABILITY part of the suggestion?

Do you not see how this type of meta will chase people out of patrols and slowly strangle (part of) the game?

Are you going to blame Admin while forgetting your own close mindedness?

Edited July 8, 2019 by Tenet

[Severus Snape]

I think this is symptomatic of a bigger issue.  PVP rewards encourage ganking/lopsided battles.  We saw this with PVP marks and we still see it with combat medals and the missions.  What makes it even worse is the patrols are the only reliable source of medals for most players and medals are 100% needed to craft a large portion of your ships and setup your port bonuses.  Players being...well players will seek to get the most out of every situation and simply gank in numbers because it's easier and more sustainable (especially in the pvp zone).  If you can hop into several battles and kill multiple players without having to re-equip ships you grind all the more faster.  As long as these types of battles are rewarded and even encouraged the gameplay will continue.  

 - Create an exchange of vic marks to permits (or dubs).
 - Implement a system where lopsided battles are rewarded less.  some sort of math where if the battle is lopsided overall damage is reduced by a factor of the imbalance.

[Slim McSauce]

Patrols are a dead feature. You should be out patroling the area around your front line not some random Arena circle.

[Tenet]

1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

Patrols are a dead feature. You should be out patroling the area around your front line not some random Arena circle.

You can go do that if you like, live and let live. Not everyone on the server must play the game the way you demand.

These features are not mutually exclusive, and your claim that "patrols are a dead future" are just your personal opinion, contradicted by facts. 

Patrols were the healthiest feature on the server early on, while DLC ships were used. If they die, it's due to a flawed implementation, not lack of interest from the community. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Tenet

[Potemkin]

just be careful when demanding changes for all of the patrol zones because of what happens most in the shroud one. different patrol zones have different dynamics.

[Tenet]

1 minute ago, Potemkin said:

just be careful when demanding changes for all of the patrol zones because of what happens most in the shroud one. different patrol zones have different dynamics.

I'll take that argument. It's already partly addressed by the suggested Durability implementation - it mainly applies to 5th rates, the higher rates should get no extra lives in patrols.

How would you modify the suggestion to alleviate your concerns? Should it be limited to Nassau and Deadman's only?

Edited July 7, 2019 by Tenet

[Slim McSauce]

6 minutes ago, Tenet said:

You can go do that if you like, live and let live. Not everyone on the server must play the game the way you demand.

Just saying, eating shit and demanding sugar isn't a good strategy. You're playing the cheapest version of NA possible, don't expect much when people who are out on OW doing the important stuff are risking their ships without the benefit of getting points for damage.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Teutonic]

1 hour ago, Beeekonda said:

Do we even play the same game?

I do.

I bring friends to patrol zones, I fight with groups. I pick my targets.

I believe Patrol zones are working as intended.

[Tenet]

11 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Just saying, eating shit and demanding sugar isn't a good strategy. You're playing the cheapest version of NA possible, don't expect much when people who are out on OW doing the important stuff are risking their ships without the benefit of getting points for damage.

Maybe your complaint deserves its own suggestion thread with "rewards for patrolling front-lines". I don't expect anything to be implemented. I don't control developer priorities. I do expect people like you to try and crap on a suggestion that does not affect your own gameplay. Classic NA forums. Keep bumping. 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Tenet

[Slim McSauce]

There is no fix. You get rewarded for going to the side-show event daily, by just doing damage. You can even farm AI for the reward. The downside is you get less than optimal ROE. It's working as intended.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Tenet]

15 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I do.

I bring friends to patrol zones, I fight with groups. I pick my targets.

I believe Patrol zones are working as intended.

Here are my arguments again on how patrol zones aren't working:

1. Bringing 4 other friends is a much easier task in any PvP game than bringing 9 others. If the zone places the limit at 10v10, eventually only groups of 10 will show up, and smaller groups will stop showing up, and the increased rarity of fights will make 10-ship groups wait longer to fight, and waiting will translate in less people showing up to 10-ship groups, and increase the wait times until the zones die. Giving people the option between 5v5 and 10v10 will greatly increase the health of the patrol zones once expensive ships get introduced. 

2. The Dueling Zone which is also intended is NOT working as intended because it requires sailing through the Group-Zone where hungry 10-ship groups are waiting for opponents and will snack on hapless duelers trying to reach their destination. 

3. The 1x Durability of 5th rates is great for RvR, but horrible for Patrol Zones where risking an RvR capable ship, even as cheap as a Surprise+Carros, becomes too much for people and they start try-harding and running and fighting less over time. You have failed to provide any counter arguments, or any reaction to the proposal of making 5th rate patrols have 5x  3x durability, limited to the patrol zone. 

Do you have any supporting arguments besides "I fight with groups"? You seem to just want to repeat your opinion, without giving it any significant support.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Tenet

[Teutonic]

Just now, Tenet said:

Here are my arguments again on how patrol zones aren't working:

1. Bringing 4 other friends is a much easier task in any PvP game than bringing 9 others. If the zone places the limit at 10v10, eventually only groups of 10 will show up, and smaller groups will stop showing up, and the increased rarity of fights will make 10-ship groups wait longer to fight, and waiting will translate in less people showing up to 10-ship groups, and increase the wait times until the zones die. 

2. The Dueling Zone which is also intended is NOT working as intended because it requires sailing through the Group-Zone where hungry 10-ship groups are waiting for opponents and will snack on hapless duelers trying to reach their destination. 

3. The 1x Durability of 5th rates is great for RvR, but horrible for Patrol Zones where risking an RvR capable ship, even as cheap as a Surprise+Carros, becomes too much for people and they start try-harding and running and fighting less over time. You have failed to provide any counter arguments, or any reaction to the proposal of making 5th rate patrols have 5x durability, limited to the patrol zone. 

Are you going to respond to any of these arguments, or continue trying to play dumb and ignore them while spamming your personal opinion?

Do you have any supporting arguments besides "I fight with groups"?

1. BR limits on the patrol zone battles already do this, although I don't disagree we can look at them further. I am all for possible lowering the BR limits.

2. Literally every time I have gone to the patrol zone I have always been able to get to the solo patrol area, I think what you're talking about is a fake problem. But again, I'm not against maybe moving it outside the area.

3. If you advocate Durability to come back, Then I must say it should be for every part of the game, or no part of the game. I cannot accept durability only coming back for patrol zones.

I wasn't playing dumb, I was informing you of my position and that I believe what you're suggesting is not needed, thanks.

[Slim McSauce]

Instead of durability, each ship crafted should yield 2-3 ships. Ships IRL were built this way creating sister ships. That way you can take the best one for yourself, and sell off the other ones. The same effect when when had durability and once it was down to 1 people would sell their ships. Except this is more realistic.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Tenet]

35 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Instead of durability, each ship crafted should yield 2-3 ships. Ships IRL were built this way creating sister ships. That way you can take the best one for yourself, and sell off the other ones. The same effect when when had durability and once it was down to 1 people would sell their ships. Except this is more realistic.

That belongs in a different suggestion thread, stop trying to derail. Please delete the post or I will have to start reporting. I am not against your idea, but this is a single-topic thread. I propose Durability ONLY for Patrol Zone, for the many reasons that led to Admin removing it from the game not applying to Patrol Zone according to my argument.

If you are not willing to engage within that topic, please start your own. 

47 minutes ago, Mascarino said:

 No. Or durability is for all, inside and out Patrol Zone, or no durability. You just want to kill OW pvp.

Your post and Teutonic's "like" is proof that he is not posting in good faith, and that you are posting off-topic. Screenshot below for record.

1. You need to show a mechanism, or a logical construct, that proves that "You just want to kill OW pvp". First of all, you need to show any evidence that this is my personal intention. Second, you have to show that my suggestion will harm OW pvp. 

2. The real reason you are against my suggestion is that you know Patrol Zones are currently more popular than OW sailing, and create a focus for the larger community, and you prefer that they would slowly die out. You want to preserve the flaws, so you fight against suggestions you KNOW will be positive for the community. You were more honest than Teutonic, declaring your intentions, while he made the mistake of "liking" your post. 

3. The solution to YOUR problem is to make OW pvp more fun. Post a separate thread with suggestions to make OW PvP more enticing, so that Patrol Zones are just an alternative, and not something that can "kill OW pvp". If you are so worried that Patrol Zones have that effect, it means OW pvp is REALLY BAD and needs improvements!

 

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

1. BR limits on the patrol zone battles already do this, although I don't disagree we can look at them further. I am all for possible lowering the BR limits.

2. Literally every time I have gone to the patrol zone I have always been able to get to the solo patrol area, I think what you're talking about is a fake problem. But again, I'm not against maybe moving it outside the area.

3. If you advocate Durability to come back, Then I must say it should be for every part of the game, or no part of the game. I cannot accept durability only coming back for patrol zones.

I wasn't playing dumb, I was informing you of my position and that I believe what you're suggesting is not needed, thanks.

1. BR limits don't offer anything to solo-ships or small-groups, a fact which you continuously ignore, even though I provided sample screenshots to illustrate my point.

I know BR Limits are meaningless, because I played as part of the big groups that would punish small groups before. I know the drill, I know the bait and switch. I know that this is not fun for the larger groups either, because in-group competition results in a rush for damage even if the enemy offers a poor fight. No one is really happy. 

2. Sample Size of One (1) is literally just an anecdote. I both ganked people who tried to sail into the circle, and got ganked in the past trying to do the same. Do you have any logical structure explaining why the SOLO zone is inside the GROUP zone?

3.. "I cannot accept durability only coming back for patrol zones." That is your personal opinion unsupported by argumentation. Admin had reasons to remove Durability from the rest of the game. I claim those reasons probably do not apply to Patrol Zones, and so restoring durability ONLY in Patrol would be favorable to the PvP community. Do you have any support for your assertions?

Your feelings on the matter are not arguments. 

There is a reason why you have to be forced to respond on point. 

There is a reason why you do not make actual counter-arguments, and simply paraphrase opinions.

Deep inside you actually know that my suggestion will make Patrols more popular.

 

P.S. No, I don't want to kill OW PvP, and no, I don't think making Patrols more enticing will produce that result. I do think OW PvP deserves a boost, which deserves it's own idea thread and resulting suggestions. Nassau and Deadman's patrols happen 2/7 days a week. OW pvp should be strong enough to survive that "threat". 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Tenet

[Teutonic]

6 minutes ago, Tenet said:

1. BR limits don't offer anything to solo-ships or small-groups, a fact which you continuously ignore, even though I provided sample screenshots to illustrate my point.

I know BR Limits are meaningless, because I played as part of the big groups that would punish small groups before. I know the drill, I know the bait and switch. I know that this is not fun for the larger groups either, because in-group competition results in a rush for damage even if the enemy offers a poor fight. No one is really happy. 

2. Sample Size of One (1) is literally just an anecdote. I both ganked people who tried to sail into the circle, and got ganked in the past trying to do the same. Do you have any logical structure explaining why the SOLO zone is inside the GROUP zone?

3.. "I cannot accept durability only coming back for patrol zones." That is your personal opinion unsupported by argumentation. Admin had reasons to remove Durability from the rest of the game. I claim those reasons probably do not apply to Patrol Zones, and so restoring durability ONLY in Patrol would be favorable to the PvP community. Do you have any support for your assertions?

1. BR limits don't offer anything to solo players because Patrol zones are not meant for solo players. the solo area in the PZ should move, I'm all for it. Patrol zones are meant for medium to large groups, Patrol zones are meant for anyone who wants to get some damage in to enemies whether they sink them or not and redeem for pvp rewards. Patrol zones are used for players who are afraid to get nothing out of PvP battles because of the crap nature that is rewards.

If anything, PvP rewards should be rebalanced, not patrol zones.

2. You're sample size of (1) picture is literally just an anecdote. I have ganked and been ganked constantly. No I have no logical explanation for why solo is inside, go ask the devs. you know, the guys who make the game.

3. Admin's reasons were not only sound, they were good for the game.

Hey man, I'd love durability to come back, but lets be real, it's better that it's not. again, no. if we want durability to come back, either it comes back for the entire game, or not at all. There is no in between here.

Players can build and move their ships to free towns nearby patrol zones to prepare themselves for a day of enjoyment if they want. All ships are not only incredibly easy to build, but also cheap to make. If you want to fight with more than 1 ship a day at a particular patrol zone, then prepare yourself to do so. Heck, many players have DLC ships for the very reason to simply click a new ship and be combat ready in just a few minutes. Have you tried any other patrol zone other than shroud cay? maybe leogane is up your alley, I know it is for me.

Lets be honest here, your suggestion is really just a "I want small battles back." I absolutely support the small battle feature to come back. Patrol zones are fine how they are. the only thing that needs a change is to separate the solo battle area within it.

[Tenet]

48 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

1. BR limits don't offer anything to solo players because Patrol zones are not meant for solo players. the solo area in the PZ should move, I'm all for it. Patrol zones are meant for medium to large groups, Patrol zones are meant for anyone who wants to get some damage in to enemies whether they sink them or not and redeem for pvp rewards. Patrol zones are used for players who are afraid to get nothing out of PvP battles because of the crap nature that is rewards.

If anything, PvP rewards should be rebalanced, not patrol zones.

2. You're sample size of (1) picture is literally just an anecdote. I have ganked and been ganked constantly. No I have no logical explanation for why solo is inside, go ask the devs. you know, the guys who make the game.

3. Admin's reasons were not only sound, they were good for the game.

Hey man, I'd love durability to come back, but lets be real, it's better that it's not. again, no. if we want durability to come back, either it comes back for the entire game, or not at all. There is no in between here.

Players can build and move their ships to free towns nearby patrol zones to prepare themselves for a day of enjoyment if they want. All ships are not only incredibly easy to build, but also cheap to make. If you want to fight with more than 1 ship a day at a particular patrol zone, then prepare yourself to do so. Heck, many players have DLC ships for the very reason to simply click a new ship and be combat ready in just a few minutes. Have you tried any other patrol zone other than shroud cay? maybe leogane is up your alley, I know it is for me.

Lets be honest here, your suggestion is really just a "I want small battles back." I absolutely support the small battle feature to come back. Patrol zones are fine how they are. the only thing that needs a change is to separate the solo battle area within it.

1. There is literally a Solo Player area, the Inner Circle of the PZ. 

You are again evading the argument that I am making. Clearly Admin intends for Solo Players to have a place. Why are you denying this fact? My actual suggestion was to extend this inner circle to the entire zone for anyone without a group. Either that, or the "central" circle should be moved into one of the edges, the southern edge looks appropriate.

2. Good to know you agree with my arguments, and actually recognize the problem, despite attempting to appear ignorant. 

3. I am arguing for Patrol Zone Durability, not "Durability everywhere", get it right. Making one Surprise with Carronades is "cheap to make", making 5x Surprises with Carronades is a significant investment, especially once 1st rate RvR kicks into gear. This is from the perspective of a person in a large clan. For smaller clans, that do exist in the game, especially among new players, that equation is even more severe. They should be the ones doing PZ the most. We should be able to recommend PZ as an activity for new players. 

(4). Earlier a point was raised about NPC ships entering PZ. On PvP server those should be redirected around, and not be part of these considerations. 

"Lets be honest here" - you were caught expressing your true intentions in this thread:

Your real concern is the fragility of OW PvP, and instead of doing the positive constrictive thing of figuring out an original idea on how to improve OW PvP in a manner that Admin can implement efficiently, you "defend" it against competition from other play types.

I believe in you Teutonic, even you can post something useful in the Suggestions forum since 2016. 

I know you can do it, you can carry your own weight and be intellectually honest. Try it out, it's liberating. 

[Teutonic]

I think I'll pass, enjoy your empty theater.

[Tenet]

4 hours ago, Severus Snape said:

I think this is symptomatic of a bigger issue.  PVP rewards encourage ganking/lopsided battles.  We saw this with PVP marks and we still see it with combat medals and the missions.  What makes it even worse is the patrols are the only reliable source of medals for most players and medals are 100% needed to craft a large portion of your ships and setup your port bonuses.  Players being...well players will seek to get the most out of every situation and simply gank in numbers because it's easier and more sustainable (especially in the pvp zone).  If you can hop into several battles and kill multiple players without having to re-equip ships you grind all the more faster.  As long as these types of battles are rewarded and even encouraged the gameplay will continue.  

 - Create an exchange of vic marks to permits (or dubs).
 - Implement a system where lopsided battles are rewarded less.  some sort of math where if the battle is lopsided overall damage is reduced by a factor of the imbalance.

I agree, which is why I propose to work on two isolated solutions:

Solution A (like this thread) for PZ where rules can be contained in one area that does not directly affect OW PvP Hunting, or RvR battles/screening.

Solution B (like your ideas) for OW in general, that will have to take RvR and Hunting balance into account. 

PZ could satisfy a lot of demand for more even and therefore more intense battles, and OW can be more rewarded to the point that people within bigger clans will gravitate towards it naturally. 

[AeRoTR]

Main problem is ROE, many solutions suggested, but disregarded. 

I disagree with durability. 5th rate in shallow patrols also introduced new problems. I do not expect any improvements. 

[Meataxe]

original post apparently didn't pass muster ... i won't bother again ... o7

Edited July 8, 2019 by Meataxe
apparently the post isn't suitable or to admin's liking ... whatever

[Tenet]

3 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

Main problem is ROE, many solutions suggested, but disregarded. 

I disagree with durability. 5th rate in shallow patrols also introduced new problems. I do not expect any improvements. 

You disagree with Durability why? Do you have any specific reasons?

5th rates in shallow patrols are already a thing - welcome to 2019 Meta. Surprise (5th rate) is a shallow ship now, and a top choice in PZ.