Norfolk nChance Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) Idea: Mrs. nChance wants to talk about relationships... Short version at the bottom... @admin You’ll need a drink for this I did, sorry... Summary A Platform that allows all ships to be analyzed with purpose. What is its Pro’s & Con’s within its near peer group. Using this as a cross check and balancer to stop migration into just three ships while the rest are wasted. Idea: The Platform Pre-Curser... The Outsider... I haven’t played seriously for months so please forgive my mistakes. Try to bear with me as I walk you through the idea. I think NA-OW needs a ship platform pre-curser. Something like a detailed wiki page before launch. From my view it looks like we are trying to solve the problem one ship at a time and in isolation. It’s only solving the symptom and not the route of the problem in my opinion. But a worrying thread started me thinking... http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26731-ship-usefulness/?tab=comments#comment-575347 @HachiRoku has highlighted some real flaws, with many ships sidelined collecting dust. The L’O all powerful but why? Later Rediii comments... “Atm I have 2 ships in every outpost I have: A ocean (and some santis due to wrong order) and bellonas. All other ships are basically useless except DLC ships ofc” - @dark lord rediii I like @Intrepido comment with Santi Vic and Co is the heeling profile that makes them prone to leaks. This is quoted in Real Life by the Prof in my post below on Ship structures with these ships. Still the same thread... Then we come back to the REPAIR problems yet again. Having 5 repairs in battle on an L’O making her now unbeatable. If she remains at or below 10% speed she can’t leak. L’O takes an age to get going at the best of times. To slow down also I’d think she’s quite fast compared to her peers... Patch25 I assume the overlay works at the ships speed and not at the point the sails are totally down? Patch25... Changed the leaks/speed dependence (ships were sinking too slowly before) You only get the 50% leaks reduction if you are stationary From 10% speed up to 80% speed leaks works without bonuses or penalties (just like before the patch) From 80% speed and up to 100% they gradually rise to 150% To get full benefits of leaks reduction (to get a chance to repair the ship - you have to stop your vessel). The wind, and leeway am guessing may play against the Vic and Santi here over the L’O with inertia. To reacquaint myself I thought I’d have a look at the recent PB battle reports... http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/21607-caribbean-great-battle-results/?page=123 So, didn’t take long. Tanked out fleet L’Os with a speed Bellona and the rest a DLC LeRq as a BR top up filler that’s it. Just the screen shot images show this is the winning side every time. Mortar Brigs no good against L’Os? or too many to be effective? A Question is mod stacking an issue anymore or not really? Let’s start Solving the Problem not the Symptom... A Platform Pre-Curser... I don’t mean to be critical but it looks like we’ve gone backwards here. What’s needed is a proper way to look at all the ships not just the top three and analyze them. How do they all inter relate with one another? At the moment we have a total of 50 ships we can play in game. Next, we need to group them... Forum, Naval Action, new title thread called “Ships”. Subsections “1st Rate” to “7th Rate” maybe with the trader ships in a separate section. Then you guessed it with Ship name in its grouping. http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Ships http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=L%27Ocean Ships 1st Rate L’Ocean Santisima Victory 2nd Rate Bucentaure St.Pavel Each Ship POST is started by a Dev with an opening profile, what the ship did in Real Life and why it is in the game. Speed profiles, repair times and ratios. Who is the ship’s immediate Peer Group, one above one below? TAGS How do they relate to each other? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=640575000 You remember this little gem of a guide above. So, comparing just three ships against each other. Read through how he links the peer groups. Now look at this [WoWs] GB Leander Cruiser below. So, quick intro what does it do? Then the basic stats. “Player Opinion” is always written the same way... It gives the ships general purpose, then where does she sit within her peer group. Then the downside features and warning. How the ship best functions within the game. Next a Pro’s and Cons list in relation to a ship rating and peers. You get the idea. For NA then we’d may suggest build types mods, perks and captain skills http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Leander Why is this important? Currently the Pro’s & Con’s for each ship no longer fit inside their peer groups. This means an accidental Super Pro can relegate all its peers. This left to fester, results in the majority of ships sidelined with only a Bespoke handful ever getting used. The Pro’s and Con’s need to be balanced against the other two Peer ships if this makes sense? Its not a case of just alliterating how the repairs work unless it balances out against the other ships. Summary The reason why we now only need three ships is because their Pro’s were never counter balanced against their individual peer group. Using an open forum platform will allow you the testers to fully break down the ships properly. Maybe starting with the L’O, Santi and Vic... The Buc and Pavel then, and so on... With new ship additions or mechanics then the Pro & Con needs to be checked and do they still balance against the near peer group? This will stop drift and help continuity going forward. @admin I believe prefers the PC to explore his Caribbean and through trial and error work out what a ship can and cannot do. This idea looks like we are giving too many secrets away. However, I slightly disagree with my beloved Essex sat in dry doc. Not all secrets need to be given, but why is the Frigate in the game, what’s its purpose? And who are her peers? What is its pro’s and con’s...? This will I believe have more ships used in NA-OW... Thank you for taking the time read my poorly worded script. If you think its rubbish let me know and if you can do better likewise... Norfolk nChance [ELITE] Short Version... Focusing on solving problems becomes an issue when they only turn out to be a symptom. A Forum for individual Ship lists broken down to include near Peer grouping. This then to test Pro’s & Con’s against the Peers. Why it’s in the game and purpose. Using the Peers as a cross check balancer will stop the isolationist migration into just two or three ships while the rest collect dust. Couldn’t think of any joke about relationships... Edited August 23, 2018 by Norfolk nChance 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim McSauce Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) I always love these long theatrical posts from you. They're very clean and well done, almost so much I can't follow without my ADHD kicking in lol so I'm gonna try to capture what you said but to be completely honest I skimmed most of it. Sorry :p I like everything here but it's so hard to pick and choose one thing to discuss on, I can usually only discuss things with people that I disagree with slightly so Maybe in the future you can slow it down for us simple folk just a tad and we can really get in on an issue, because I see many here that need to be addressed but my brain forbids me of doing so, as peculiar as that sounds to the average man who breaks bottles open with his bare teeth. Best to you and the lady, o7 Edited August 23, 2018 by Slim McSauce 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovec1990 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 idea is good in theory, but what if some pople do not like the ship and started crying for nerfing despite ship is balanced? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I think the community and the devs both don't know why exactly we don't use certain ships anymore. I am not expecting a patch that limits repairs to make things better. I hope it but online gaming has shown me things do work as intended. I have played loads of games and naval action has the hardest combat system you could imagine to "balance" An F22 is always a better plane than an f14 in a flight sim just like a trinco will aways be a better ship than an Essex for example. How do you design the game in a way that people want to sail the lesser ship? This the question that I can't figure out. I can assume things but at the end of the day I really don't know the exact reason. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim McSauce Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said: I think the community and the devs both don't know why exactly we don't use certain ships anymore. I am not expecting a patch that limits repairs to make things better. I hope it but online gaming has shown me things do work as intended. I have played loads of games and naval action has the hardest combat system you could imagine to "balance" An F22 is always a better plane than an f14 in a flight sim just like a trinco will aways be a better ship than an Essex for example. How do you design the game in a way that people want to sail the lesser ship? This the question that I can't figure out. I can assume things but at the end of the day I really don't know the exact reason. I think the real question to ask is why are the best ships the easiest to get? Who knows. Nothing always makes sense unless you shoot first ask questions later. Edited August 23, 2018 by Slim McSauce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovec1990 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said: I think the community and the devs both don't know why exactly we don't use certain ships anymore. I am not expecting a patch that limits repairs to make things better. I hope it but online gaming has shown me things do work as intended. I have played loads of games and naval action has the hardest combat system you could imagine to "balance" An F22 is always a better plane than an f14 in a flight sim just like a trinco will aways be a better ship than an Essex for example. How do you design the game in a way that people want to sail the lesser ship? This the question that I can't figure out. I can assume things but at the end of the day I really don't know the exact reason. yeah you got it right but in other hand this kind of force balance devs did too make other ships intresting destroyed the ship they nerfed. Perhaps ship maitanence fee could be used so better ship bigger fee and if ship is docked fee is way lower 1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said: I think the real question to ask is why are the best ships the easiest to get? Who knows. Nothing always makes sense. Popularity of them make more demand for them so crafters craft them and this leads too lower prices becouse each crafter wants too sell his, but unpopular ships have little demand so harder too get 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said: I think the real question to ask is why are the best ships the easiest to get? Who knows. Nothing always makes sense unless you shoot first ask questions later. I don't believe only the best sailors or hardest grinders should sail 1st rates. There are plenty of people that only buy naval action because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim McSauce Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) Just now, HachiRoku said: I don't believe only the best sailors or hardest grinders should sail 1st rates. There are plenty of people that only buy naval action because of this. I wish it wasn't a grind at all for anybody. Eco should be fun not a hassle. I bought NA for the Open World and Realism but I know people bought the game before any of that was introduced so we all want different things here. I would just like a happy middle ground we can all agree on. Edited August 23, 2018 by Slim McSauce 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 In a Sim, the love for the bird is what motivates most. The the learning, the fine tuning, the pure joy of doing the "mission for tonight" with squad buddies, the tinkering with the ammo type, or fuel amounts, etc etc etc. - the birds are to specs, as much as possibly by the software. You cannot re-engineer the plane. In NA, we are re-engineering our hulls, rig plans, and on top, making the "pilot" looking better than he might be through abstract knowledge. We pull the envelope of the "bird" in NA through stats, not through skilful use. Now add skilful use to a over-stats ship... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim McSauce Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said: In a Sim, the love for the bird is what motivates most. The the learning, the fine tuning, the pure joy of doing the "mission for tonight" with squad buddies, the tinkering with the ammo type, or fuel amounts, etc etc etc. - the birds are to specs, as much as possibly by the software. You cannot re-engineer the plane. In NA, we are re-engineering our hulls, rig plans, and on top, making the "pilot" looking better than he might be through abstract knowledge. This is true, you have your plane all you choose is what you strap to it. In NA we're practically building our own ships with how much mods change the characteristics, we just compete on what base is better and that ship becomes meta. I would love to go to a minimal mods, minimal repairs setup where real player skill can shine through like it should, I hate to see so many ships left in the dark not being used. Edited August 23, 2018 by Slim McSauce 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovec1990 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said: This is true, you have your plane all you choose is what you strap to it. In NA we're practically building our own ships with how much mods change the characteristics, we just compete on what base is better and that ship becomes meta. I would love to go to a minimal mods, minimal repairs setup where real player skill can shine through like it should, I hate to see so many ships left in the dark. true but if we go by real stats of the ships some will overperform and be quite popular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim McSauce Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) Just now, Lovec1990 said: true but if we go by real stats of the ships some will overperform and be quite popular hey I never claimed to have the solution, that's out of my realm. It may be something we have to live with I really don't know how we'll deal with it. Edited August 23, 2018 by Slim McSauce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said: if we go by real stats of the ships some will overperform read that again, and again, and again... how can a model, which goes by real stats be overperforming ? she goes by ... real and recorded and tested stats... ( if no magical stuff is used and only player efficience comes into play ) there's always a better bird, a better tank, a better ship... but sometimes, just sometimes, there's no better pilot, commander, captain. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolk nChance Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) @Slim McSauce Thank you for the kind words, I’ll pass along your compliments to the money pit from hell @Lovec1990 This is a big part of the problem understanding why it’s being nerfed. One ship sidelines its peer group (one above and the one below) then it influences the next +2 above and -2 below and so on. This depending on the Pro is migration creep... This is how we get to just 3 ships. The solution is the Peer group cross check. So, if one ship has a Pro above the other two, it needs to have con’s against. The original Santi, L’O and Vic I thought played nicely off each other and balanced. From a Heavy defensive Gun platform to the largest fire output of any ship, to the very maneuverable vehicle that still delivers a kick. The problem like @hachi points out is the lower end... what unique features are needed? Peer Group low to high L’Hermione - Essex - Tricomalee - What are the real differences between these three bearing in mind the position? More uniqueness needs building in. In Hindsight and going forward by doing the Pro’s and Con’s for each gives better game depth... In theory anyway... @HachiRoku You did a brilliant thread and I blame you for my relationship with Mrs. nChance. The only balance the F14 has or had over the F22 was its time in history. In 1974 the F-14 Tomcat was there ready, but otherwise no none. By building small sets of 3 peer groups up and down the rating system will allow that diversity to unfold. No new ship should be introduced otherwise. Using specific RvR missions or tasks is not the way. Maybe multiplier bonuses apply to the Essex when sailing with the Bellona. The Con side must be built it as well like repairs slower than the other two... again just clutching at straws here... But same weighted mechanics Rock Paper Scissors for L’Herione, Essex and Trinc… thanks for the feedback guys NnC Edited August 23, 2018 by Norfolk nChance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim McSauce Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) The essex could definitely use the bow chasers that it had historically. It's actually not a bad platform for it's guns and crew count, maybe a little turn buff and it would be a well regarded ship to compete with, and sail. Edited August 23, 2018 by Slim McSauce 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovec1990 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Hethwill the Harmless said: read that again, and again, and again... how can a model, which goes by real stats be overperforming ? she goes by ... real and recorded and tested stats... ( if no magical stuff is used and only player efficience comes into play ) there's always a better bird, a better tank, a better ship... but sometimes, just sometimes, there's no better pilot, commander, captain. im not against using real stats, but of how many ships we have real stats i can name only two and only one that actualy can sail under her own power: USS Constitution. and how would people react in game on LO/WO Constitution with copper plating as standard doing 12kn? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenfish Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I think the frigate class was the most balanced. In my clan we had people who loved the Trinc, but others hated it's heal and loved the Essex. I didn't like the heal and had to have bow chasers, so my favourite was the frigate. The point was no ship could do everything. Which your favourite was, depended upon how you liked to sail. That's how it should be. If one ship can do much more than any other in it's class, then it's always going to become the ship of choice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 she is what she is. no ship is unbeatable a squadron might be a big challenge to beat. bring your own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolk nChance Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said: The essex could definitely use the bow chasers that it had historically. It's actually not a bad platform for it's guns and crew count, maybe a little turn buff and it would be a well regarded ship to compete with. The Essex not as fast as the TRINC its TurnR is smaller 3.29 v 3.35 as well. If these numbers are not current apologies. With Bow chasers would bring her in line with the 30 less crew it sits well. Unfortunately, the L’Hermione becomes a distant poor third now. Not much speed better turnR but under powered. The Essex Bow and TurnR buff pulls her away... This is the problem Norfolk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonys Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said: The essex could definitely use the bow chasers that it had historically. It's actually not a bad platform for it's guns and crew count, maybe a little turn buff and it would be a well regarded ship to compete with, and sail. when a ship is called the Essex it should have historically been fitted out otherwise, we screw up history if a ship does not have the historical fit why don't they give it a self-invented name like "Arcadia" or something like that or that the Dutch have no ships in the Carribean and the protegees do not even exist, its a screw-up form here to Tokyo. just saying ah yes, it's a dream... Edited August 23, 2018 by Thonys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovec1990 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) sorry made a mistake tought trinco in game has 24pd cannons Edited August 23, 2018 by Lovec1990 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Admin pinned the a thread about this in combat discussion. Let's keep chatting there. 10 threads with 1 point is useless guys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovec1990 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, HachiRoku said: Admin pinned the a thread about this in combat discussion. Let's keep chatting there. 10 threads with 1 point is useless guys this one? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolk nChance Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 Guys, please use this thread instead now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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