Ship speeds, an adjustment suggestion

[Hodo]

Ship speeds was capped at 15kn.  I think this all fine and good but it leads to the min-max meta of all ships need to be 15kn or bust. 

So I think it should be capped to 10% over MAX base speed of the ship.

So an Endymoin, Lynx, Privateer, and Renomee can still get to 15kn if they are made right.   But there will be NO way in hell a Constitution or a Ballona can get to that fast.

Endymoin goes base 13.77kn, a max 10% increase would put it around 15.14kn.  But a Ballona which is listed at 11.34 can get to a max of 12.6kn which is PLENTY fast for a ship of that size.  

This would return the ships back to their intended roles, with SOME flexibility for the captain of that ship in his design choices.

[Guest]

Agreed

 

/ Signed

[Iroquois Confederacy]

I'd argue 15%, just because in woods alone you can get 12%.  But, conceptually, yes.

[MassimoSud]

I auggest 20% as for hull and thickness.

[Hodo]

9 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

I'd argue 15%, just because in woods alone you can get 12%.  But, conceptually, yes.

I thought about that, and 15% is good to but then you end up with ships like the Lynx or Endymoin that go 13.77kn base.  When you do the math  13.77*1.15=15.83kn or about 16kn.   Not horrible but still faster than any ship recorded during this time.

4 minutes ago, MassimoSud said:

I auggest 20% as for hull and thickness.

20% is WAY to high, you can end up with a ship doing close to 17kn.  I thought about that myself.  

[Guest]

Yep why sail a renomee when much bigger boats can also go 15nts.

[Iroquois Confederacy]

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be heartbroken if they used a number other than 10%, but the concept as a whole is, I think, good.

[Hodo]

13 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Yep why sail a renomee when much bigger boats can also go 15nts.

Because the Renomee's hull shape and sailing profile is better than the Endymion by far.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Hodo

[CaptVonGunn]

No Cap.... Have stacked bonus in type preform at reduced amount..

So you could have 1 perm upgrade and 1 book and if it helped 1 perk all provide Full bonus,,,

But the next upgrade or book would only be 50%. A third would only be 25% .... You would still have some ships going it all but it would not be as stupid as it is now.Plus get rid of the Magic Bow figures...

[Knallkorp]

Great idea, also would like to add that i think the wood types should go on its own and the 10% cap is whit only upgrades. To make the thinner woods still valuable. Might need some tweaking tho.

[Hodo]

On 7/3/2017 at 4:59 AM, rediii said:

I actually think the speedcap is a good solution.

Without a speedcap everyone would sail again the fastest ships and only them. Right now you have atleast some variation if people want to spend expensive upgrades for ships.

Not really. 

Now people just sail around in the ship with the most firepower that can get to the speed cap.  So no variation.  

 

[Koltes]

On 7/1/2017 at 2:02 AM, Hodo said:

Ship speeds was capped at 15kn.  I think this all fine and good but it leads to the min-max meta of all ships need to be 15kn or bust. 

So I think it should be capped to 10% over MAX base speed of the ship.

So an Endymoin, Lynx, Privateer, and Renomee can still get to 15kn if they are made right.   But there will be NO way in hell a Constitution or a Ballona can get to that fast.

Endymoin goes base 13.77kn, a max 10% increase would put it around 15.14kn.  But a Ballona which is listed at 11.34 can get to a max of 12.6kn which is PLENTY fast for a ship of that size.  

This would return the ships back to their intended roles, with SOME flexibility for the captain of that ship in his design choices.

First liked it as it did sound better than what we have now. But then I ran few numbers and had to unlike, sorry. It will work even worse for the dedicated speed setups.

1. Surprise base 12.35kn + 10% = 13.58kn max downwind and only 10.05 on 60 degree (too slow to get away before his sails turn into rags) = dead as a solo hunter
2. Constitution base speed is 12.23kn + 10% = 13.45kn max downwind (light speedy Surprise is not that much speedier)
3. Renommee base 13.69kn + 10% = 15.05kn max = still dead as a solo hunter (Endymoin is a heavier ship, has more armor and gunnery and faster..) Also it makes it only 1.5kn difference to the big ships, which is not enough for solo hunter to survive.
4. Edymion base speed 13.77kn + 10% = 15.14kn max which means with its superior firepower and armor he will simply replace Reno and Surp and become the Uber solo hunter instead. No more speed glass cannons. Instead you have what Pirate Frigate should have been from the start.

What will happen is that we wont be able to create glass cannons anymore. You could just throw 10% worth of upgrades (Gazelle + Crooked for example) and done with it. There will be less variants and less flexibility.
In the whole history of gaming player love to have option to go dedicated / specialized fits. Look at EVE, WOW even NA. I dont need any armor or superior gunnery. I want dedicated super light and super fast ship where I can sacrifice armor in order to gain speed and turn rate.

Honestly, all they need to do is to remove speed cap altogether (its a lazy "fix" of unbalanced mechanic) and drop bonuses from all upgrades/skills by 1%. Test. Drop another 1% if required.

 

On 7/1/2017 at 5:20 AM, Hodo said:

or about 16kn.   Not horrible but still faster than any ship recorded during this time.

In regards of historical speeds, there is no use for them in the game. We already have guns that load faster. Sails go up and down faster than in real life. Ships turn faster, they sail on sharper angles into the wind etc. Its all done to make game more dynamic and to enjoy it more The game needs to be playable and enjoyable and its way more important that being historically correct.

Dedicated specialized fits promote team work. Group of taggers will have to have fast tagging ships as well as the damage dealers and tanks.

Edited July 6, 2017 by koltes

[Koltes]

On 7/3/2017 at 8:59 PM, rediii said:

I actually think the speedcap is a good solution.

Without a speedcap everyone would sail again the fastest ships and only them. Right now you have atleast some variation if people want to spend expensive upgrades for ships.

I strongly disagree mate. It does take skill and good knowledge of the game to sail glass cannons.

Also most of the people prefer somewhat mid setups. Most of my clan members still like to have a bit of armor and and firepower and trade that for speed.
For all my time played I have met only handful of people who did go fully dedicated speed setups.

And @Hodo is right. We have more speed setups now because people make 15kn Connies and no matter how weak they are they are still 100times stronger than that "fast" Reno that sails next to them because it cant get away.
The speed cap made Renommee or other speed ships absolutely useless. What is the use of Reno now? You cant out-run, you cant out-turn, you cant-out gun or out-tank anything anymore. Doesn't even have stern guns like Surp and no chasers at all. Its now worthless. Can you come up with any usage for this ship? I would be interested to know.

Edited July 6, 2017 by koltes

[Malachy]

On 6/30/2017 at 0:21 PM, Flinch said:

Yep why sail a renomee when much bigger boats can also go 15nts.

The Reno and other ships are cheap. The Connie and bellona are not. I see more variety now that more ships can hit the speed cap than I ever did before. This is a good thing. Learn to deal with it.

[Hodo]

14 hours ago, koltes said:

First liked it as it did sound better than what we have now. But then I ran few numbers and had to unlike, sorry. It will work even worse for the dedicated speed setups.

1. Surprise base 12.35kn + 10% = 13.58kn max downwind and only 10.05 on 60 degree (too slow to get away before his sails turn into rags) = dead as a solo hunter
2. Constitution base speed is 12.23kn + 10% = 13.45kn max downwind (light speedy Surprise is not that much speedier)
3. Renommee base 13.69kn + 10% = 15.05kn max = still dead as a solo hunter (Endymoin is a heavier ship, has more armor and gunnery and faster..) Also it makes it only 1.5kn difference to the big ships, which is not enough for solo hunter to survive.
4. Edymion base speed 13.77kn + 10% = 15.14kn max which means with its superior firepower and armor he will simply replace Reno and Surp and become the Uber solo hunter instead. No more speed glass cannons. Instead you have what Pirate Frigate should have been from the start.

What will happen is that we wont be able to create glass cannons anymore. You could just throw 10% worth of upgrades (Gazelle + Crooked for example) and done with it. There will be less variants and less flexibility.
In the whole history of gaming player love to have option to go dedicated / specialized fits. Look at EVE, WOW even NA. I dont need any armor or superior gunnery. I want dedicated super light and super fast ship where I can sacrifice armor in order to gain speed and turn rate.

Honestly, all they need to do is to remove speed cap altogether (its a lazy "fix" of unbalanced mechanic) and drop bonuses from all upgrades/skills by 1%. Test. Drop another 1% if required.

 

In regards of historical speeds, there is no use for them in the game. We already have guns that load faster. Sails go up and down faster than in real life. Ships turn faster, they sail on sharper angles into the wind etc. Its all done to make game more dynamic and to enjoy it more The game needs to be playable and enjoyable and its way more important that being historically correct.

Dedicated specialized fits promote team work. Group of taggers will have to have fast tagging ships as well as the damage dealers and tanks.

I personally am a bigger fan of 15-20% over max designed speed.  Which gives a wider range of ships that can reach high speeds.  But I also think it should be limited by rating also.  A 6-7 rate 20% max, 4-5th rate 15%, 1-3 rate 10%.  

This would keep you from having racing yacht Ballonas.

6 hours ago, rediii said:

To go deep into enemy regions. We still use the reno like crazy because it's the cheapest ship to reach 15kn an it doesn't hurt to lose it.

Fir-Fir Gazelle and you are done.

Ok.. Seeing as a fir fir gaz Reno is still worth more than a fir-fir gaz Surprise.  AND it still hurts to lose it.  Seeing as it stands NO chance against ANY ship with guns bigger than 6lbs.  

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

The Reno and other ships are cheap. The Connie and bellona are not. I see more variety now that more ships can hit the speed cap than I ever did before. This is a good thing. Learn to deal with it.

Your idea of cheap is completely different than someone else.   I consider the cerb and the Surprise to be cheap as they dont require furnishings.   

And it is not a good thing.  No matter how you try and spin it.

[Hodo]

2 minutes ago, rediii said:

Do you even pvp?

LOL, 

Dont come at me with that weak az comeback.  Like saying "do you even lift??"  

and yes I do, this is a suggestion, you dont like it, dont comment, and move on.

[Hodo]

20 minutes ago, rediii said:

 

Just found it funny that you think small ships have no chance against big ships

You dont know me very well do you?

Seeing as I sail around in unrates most of the time, and rarely if ever take anything bigger than a Privateer into PVP.  Yeah I know what small ships can do.  

[Hodo]

9 minutes ago, rediii said:

 

 

Reno doesn't hurt to lose btw.

It hurts more than a surprise, which has no furnishings and is actually cheaper to produce.  

[Sven Silberbart]

Static Speed Cap must be removed. 100% agree to the thread owner.

[Fargo]

On 3.7.2017 at 10:59 AM, rediii said:

I actually think the speedcap is a good solution.

Without a speedcap everyone would sail again the fastest ships and only them. Right now you have atleast some variation if people want to spend expensive upgrades for ships.

Either you do proper ship/wood/upgrade balancing, or you set artificial restrictions like this to avoid it... Thats just bad game design, and lazyness. I dont see any argument in favour of a speedcap. It makes no sense when you think about it. 

What was the problem before? I dont remember a renommee meta. Look how weak the reno is because of its speed, or how bad the endymion sails. There is no use for these ships anymore, besides beeing cheap throwaway ships. I dont see variation, i see uncatchable surprises everywhere. In case only renos would be used, you would just nerv its stats... but no need for a speedcap.

Ship balancing seems not too bad, just nerv those stackable upgrades. Every other game has mechanics to reduce boni when you stack them. When ships are still too fast, reduce base speed for all vessels, or fast wood boni.

53 minutes ago, rediii said:

that's where you are wrong

to get a suprise to 15kn you need speedpermas. Speedpermas are (atleast on EU server) realy expensive. (several 100k each)

So instead you just take a reno with gaz and sail a cheaper ship.

Yes its cheaper to speedcap them, but thats not balancing. Youre on the wrong way here. You cant balance a ship in terms of gameplay by making it cheap. Thats like saying an OP upgrade isnt OP, cause its rare. Not true.

When i want to invest in a good ship inc. upgrades, i should have the choice to pick a renommee or endymion. I currently can use more upgrades for turning or so, cause i dont need that much speed upgrades, but this cant compensate the weakness of those ships. They are build for speed, not to be a good allrounder.

Maybe its working to build a very tanky endymion and speedcap it, but how stupid is that? When the difference base speed - speedcap defines how tanky you can build a ship, you would simply make it slower and tankier in terms of base stats. A fast connie would probably still be stronger and better.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Fargo

[Digital Wind]

I think this detracts from the ability to customize a ship.  If we cap spped like this, why not turn speed, thickness, and HP?  Pretty soon it becomes a good idea to start capping everything, and then someone has the bright idea to eliminate the mod caps, and just re-balance/nerf everything.

[Fargo]

13 minutes ago, rediii said:

I do. Aswell as I remember a Endy meta. Uncatchable ships in your homewaters where you didn't even bother to hunt them. Even less than now

Huntingships will then be limited to 2 ships again. Reno and Endy

I havent really played anymore when we got the endy, so maybe thats true. Changed stats for those ships with the wipe? The renomee became weaker, but i cant say if this happened with the wipe or before.

Its not a problem to see specific ships in specific roles, ofcourse hunters use fast ships at best with chasers. But these ships need to be balanced when it comes to combat or other ueses. Thats not a reason to give all ships the same speed.

And its not changing much. Now the surprise became the best hunter, cause it was a very good allrounder before. Now its a very good allrounder as fast as the ships build for speed, even faster upwind.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Fargo

[Malachy]

3 hours ago, Hodo said:

I personally am a bigger fan of 15-20% over max designed speed.  Which gives a wider range of ships that can reach high speeds.  But I also think it should be limited by rating also.  A 6-7 rate 20% max, 4-5th rate 15%, 1-3 rate 10%.  

This would keep you from having racing yacht Ballonas.

Ok.. Seeing as a fir fir gaz Reno is still worth more than a fir-fir gaz Surprise.  AND it still hurts to lose it.  Seeing as it stands NO chance against ANY ship with guns bigger than 6lbs.  

Your idea of cheap is completely different than someone else.   I consider the cerb and the Surprise to be cheap as they dont require furnishings.   

And it is not a good thing.  No matter how you try and spin it.

I'm going off production costs. A Reno costs 75k to make. A Connie costs 400 to 450k conservatively. So a player can afford to lose 4 to 5 reno for the cost of a single Connie. Also the poor acceleration profiles on the bigger 5th rates and Connie means that a Connie won't be running down a reno even if they both hit the speed cap... Reno just has to swap directions or turn through the wind once or twice... but now you will be under fire when you do it. Also, the larger frigates don't maneuver nearly as well as the smaller ones. There are still roles for the smaller frigates, you guys just have to learn that they don't have the easy  run away option anymore and if you screw up, you might actually have to fight your way out of a sticky situation or do something other than turn to your best point and walk away. And furnishings are really easy to make... only 1 gold ingot, 1 silver and some lig vit. I've made about 90 of them just from gold and silver I get from running out my labor on my iron mine.

 

basically you have to choose between cheap and expendable with moderate firepower and easy to outfit, or expensive, tough to get permanent mods  but greater firepower. And you can get two good permanent mods for 220 combat marks, which take maybe 4 hours to obtain. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Malachy

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, Digital Wind said:

I think this detracts from the ability to customize a ship.  If we cap spped like this, why not turn speed, thickness, and HP?  Pretty soon it becomes a good idea to start capping everything, and then someone has the bright idea to eliminate the mod caps, and just re-balance/nerf everything.

Other things are capped.

Max HP you can gain is 20%.

Max cannon dispersion reduction is 20%

Max reload speed is 20%.

Everything is limited to 20% over stock.

 

[DeRuyter]

17 hours ago, koltes said:

snip
 

In regards of historical speeds, there is no use for them in the game. We already have guns that load faster. Sails go up and down faster than in real life. Ships turn faster, they sail on sharper angles into the wind etc. Its all done to make game more dynamic and to enjoy it more The game needs to be playable and enjoyable and its way more important that being historically correct.

 

I disagree. NA is still a game within a historical framework (magic bow figures aside ofc). Sure everything is sped up for gameplay, but historical top speeds can be used as a reference point. You then have a speed cap unique to each ship. That way you ensure variation in ship speeds at difference points of sail. A stock ship starts lower than the maximum historical speed, then you apply mods. Like stock ships vs fully researched in WoWs.

Another way to alter the ship speed meta is with variable wind since right now all ships always reach their max speed at a given point of sail (but that's another topic).