Patch 10.2 - Changes to mission, crafting, ROE and other fixes

[Neptune]

4 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

I'm not saying you have to have an alt to play the game. I'm saying that this is one way that there is to counter revenge fleets. the real way to counter revenge fleets is be in ships that cant be caught. ie surprise/ renomee it doesn't matter if they tag you 15x they cant catch you. once they realize that they cant they will stop tagging you. the problem is that if your running a surprise fleet or a renomee fleet your targets are limited. people want the best of both worlds. they want to be out there in bellonas or heavy frigates and not have to worry about being counter-ganked. and that's just not an option.

Who has time to be tagged 15 times in a row? So basically what your suggesting is if you don't have 5+ hours to look for PvP than don't bother? Because with these current mechanics you can be tagged on ow repeatedly. So you are targeting this game towards people who don't work or go to school?

I haven't seen anyone ask to be able to sail heavy frigates and line ships without being counterganked. What I have seen is a suggestion for a speed buff to make up for open world time compression and people camping on top of your battle. This would ease the repeat tagging.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Koltes actually had some points there.  Especially that gankers should expect to be ganked, and there are way too many who want to make this game to support their playstyle and opinion, instead for all.

Revenge gank is good if it is not instant gank, but a chase.  So a short invisibility to give a small head start is enough.

[Neptune]

6 minutes ago, koltes said:

They can't get tagged again and again. If they are they need to learn game mechanics better. With the current game mechanics the outcome is the following:

If you are slower AND weaker than your enemy you will die. This is how it supposed to be.
If you are weaker but faster you will be able to run. This is how its supposed to be.
If you are faster AND stronger they will die. This is how its supposed to be.

That's all false unless you have a idiot revenge fleet trying to gank you. Because anyone with common sense knows what wind angle you will run at so as soon as you exit they will just start following you. And if they have a brain they will spread out ships at all angles of optimal wind and tag you.

It's actually super easy to get around speed ships, if you know how to.

[King of Crowns]

1 minute ago, Neptune said:

Who has time to be tagged 15 times in a row? So basically what your suggesting is if you don't have 5+ hours to look for PvP than don't bother? Because with these current mechanics you can be tagged on ow repeatedly. So you are targeting this game towards people who don't work or go to school?

I haven't seen anyone ask to be able to sail heavy frigates and line ships without being counterganked. What I have seen is a suggestion for a speed buff to make up for open world time compression and people camping on top of your battle. This would ease the repeat tagging.

Another solution is if the devs can translate you distance traveled in battle into where you pop out at from the battle. idk if that is possible or not. that way sitting on the swords of a closed battle would accomplish nothing. but closing the battle sooner doesn't stop revenge fleets.

[King of Crowns]

1 hour ago, TommyShelby said:

Sounds like some great gameplay right there! 

Your solution: 
1 - Buy another copy of the game and dual box to scout with an alt.
2 - "Play" with your "food" for 90 minutes even though the battle could have been over in say, 20 minutes. 

Do you have anymore constructive input because your last 2 comments really reached new heights...

OR you could just reach into those deep pockets and pay a spy for information.

[Koltes]

Just now, Neptune said:

That's all false unless you have a idiot revenge fleet trying to gank you. Because anyone with common sense knows what wind angle you will run at so as soon as you exit they will just start following you. And if they have a brain they will spread out ships at all angles of optimal wind and tag you.

It's actually super easy to get around speed ships, if you know how to.

This is another example of an "arrogant prick" attitude who thinks that he knows it all because he logged first time into the game 2 years ago.
Calling someone an idiot and showing your lack of understanding of game mechanics all in one post is a classic example of this.

Yeah you go and try to gank me outside the battle instance blocking me on my best wind escape route and I will shake you off instantly by turning into the wind and after invisibility drops get to the right POS. You will have to beat the wind to get across my path which will be even worse in your case and position in the relation of the wind.

[Cmdr RideZ]

What is a revenge gank?

Is that those small fast ships that will catch you and gank you?  I do not really think so.

I think that the biggest issue with revenge ganks is, so that everyone knows what is actually a revenge gank -> You have a fast ship so you can runaway.  Revenge gank makes it possible to get 25x 1st rate right next to you, and there is no way to run.

Small fast ships chasing me after a battle, ganking me, I could probably live with this some how.  It would be just an opposite gank.

[Neptune]

Just now, koltes said:

This is another example of an "arrogant prick" attitude who thinks that he knows it all because he logged first time into the game 2 years ago.
Calling someone an idiot and showing your lack of understanding of game mechanics all in one post is a classic example of this.

Yeah you go and try to gank me outside the battle instance blocking me on my best wind escape route and I will shake you off instantly by turning into the wind and after invisibility drops get to the right POS. You will have to beat the wind to get across my path which will be even worse in your case and position in the relation of the wind.

I didn't call anyone an idiot. I said a revenge fleet who tried to gank you and didn't know that would be idiots. And it was just a joke, you are taking this a bit too serious mate. Maybe time to step away from the forum for a bit.

[Koltes]

2 minutes ago, Neptune said:

I didn't call anyone an idiot. I said a revenge fleet who tried to gank you and didn't know that would be idiots. And it was just a joke, you are taking this a bit too serious mate. Maybe time to step away from the forum for a bit.

Maybe its not a time for jokes when we're having game mechanics matters discussion that could seriously affect the game and the player base?

 

[King of Crowns]

7 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

What is a revenge gank?

Is that those small fast ships that will catch you and gank you?  I do not really think so.

I think that the biggest issue with revenge ganks is, so that everyone knows what is actually a revenge gank -> You have a fast ship so you can runaway.  Revenge gank makes it possible to get 25x 1st rate right next to you, and there is no way to run.

Small fast ships chasing me after a battle, ganking me, I could probably live with this some how.  It would be just an opposite gank.

defensive tagging makes what ur discussing here a non issue. and 25 first rates will never catch a surprise. especially with current mast changes.   1st rate goes less than 3 knots close haul. surprise 7+

Edited June 13, 2017 by King of Crowns

[jodgi]

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

So yeah I want them to gank me. Do you understand? I WANT to be ganked!

Did you read that out in your head before you typed it out?

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

Or are you speaking of the past and past only? Or are you just trolling the game. No offense man. This is what it looks like to me.

Do you always assume idiocy or the worst when you engage in gameplay feedback? If that's "what it looks like" to you how should we gauge the validity of your further feedback?

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

With battle timers entry increased I have been ganked less. Full stop.

That's exactly what we're saying. What happens instead, though? Is it your goal to reduce ganking?

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

That's because you are locked in the square thinking for the last 2 years of this game development

So, tommi is locked in his thinking due to the last two years while you are a free thinker that happens to have it right?

 

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

Newbs don't take them because they can't spare a perk point that they could otherwise use for trading / crafting or leveling

As a hardened "I want to be ganked" pvp veteran you tell people to click those perks?

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

but you cant comprehend that because you are living in the past.

You assume to much

 

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

Why did you bring this here? Basic Cutter was a free ship allowed to PVP issue which is now fixed.

Basic Cutter is fixed. The PVP issue of constant retag remains.

 

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

You need to stop bringing this BS about being a vet into the argument if you played back during Sea Trials

 

He is not talking about Sea Trials, pay attention!

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

If they are an enemy in your waters your nation have much bigger options to gank them in return.

So, that's what you recommend? Noted.

I'm just gonna leave this here:

57 minutes ago, koltes said:

Then I came to the point of realization that I was there to make game working for everyone.

Edited June 13, 2017 by jodgi
contextual error

[Cmdr RideZ]

10 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

defensive tagging makes what ur discussing here a non issue. and 25 first rates will never catch a surprise. especially with current mast changes.   1st rate goes less than 3 knots close haul. surprise 7+

It is to make a point.  With revenge gank, people can bring so big ships in battle that normally could not catch you.  There can be couple small ones just to keep you tagged, while the big slow ships are slowly gaining on you.

Also it can be that those big ships just spawn right next to you, and even if you had a fast ship, it is very hard to get out from that kind of fire power.

[Koltes]

58 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Did you read that out in your head before you typed it out?
Yes, did you?
 

Do you always assume idiocy or the worst when you engage in gameplay feedback? If that's "what it looks like" to you how should we gauge the validity of your further feedback?
I don't. Do you?
 

1 hour ago, koltes said:

With battle timers entry increased I have been ganked less. Full stop

That's exactly what we're saying. What happens instead, though? Is it your goal to reduce ganking?
No, your lot is crying how they get ganked left and right with battle timers being anything longer than 2 mins. I said that with the other current supporting game mechanics the increase in entry time  have not resulted increase in ganking. I'm ganked less
 

So, tommi is locked in his thinking due to the last two years while you are a free thinker that happens to have it right?
He had his way for nearly a year and that killed most of solo, small fleet pvp. While it has immediate beneficial for solo hunters, it has so huge negative effect on defenseless traders and new players that it resulted lots of negativity and reduction of player base. In return it resulted decrease of hunting opportunity for me despite that originally I benefited from it.
Tommi is locked in his square thinking because he actually quit the game WHILE we had those 2 mins timers yet he doesn't see the issue that fast closing battle instances are causing.

 

1 hour ago, koltes said:

Newbs don't take them because they can't spare a perk point that they could otherwise use for trading / crafting or leveling

As a hardened "I want to be ganked" pvp veteran you tell people to click those perks?
What are "those" perks? I'm simply saying that Tommi promotes Signaling perk as a supportive mechanics to counter issues and limitations of his 2 min timer demand. I my experience, encounters and therefore opinion, Signaling perk does not work for new player in any shape or form because its a perk that they have to spend perk point on, while not able to afford so. Do you think otherwise? How many newbs have you encountered who actually had Signaling on? I have tags lots. I mean it. And literally only 2-3 had signaling on. Do you NOT see this as an issue for a new player and complete fail of mechanics that was actually designed for them??? MKAY

 

You assume to much
Saying this to a person who worked for 2,5 years in the analytical department of the ministry of internal affairs backfires straight back at yourself.
Never been accused of that as anything that I have said is based on the solid facts and player's own words (this is what it was in Tommi's case also). But you are entitled to your own opinion of course.

 

Basic Cutter is fixed. The PVP issue of constant retag remains.
It is not in my experience. I do not saying that your experience is not valid. I just want to establish if it is my taggers on the entire server (the server who now has mixture of PVP1 and PVP2 players) don't know how to chain tag properly (because I hear this in the context of Tommi's and your posts) or if it is in fact you who can't avoid chain tags? This is the real question behind all these discussions here.
We can always organize a test. Your lot will need to bring tag fleet and try to hold me pinned. We can analyze this after we have some solid data from both parties.

 

He is not talking about Sea Trials, pay attention!
I wasn't either. Pay attention.
 

1 hour ago, koltes said:

If they are an enemy in your waters your nation have much bigger options to gank them in return

So, that's what you recommend? Noted.
This is not what I recommended. This is what the development team of this game wants and I supported them in this regard.

11 hours ago, admin said:

those are not revenge fleets. Those are home defense fleets. 

 

I'm just gonna leave this here:

1 hour ago, koltes said:

Then I came to the point of realization that I was there to make game working for everyone

Taking fragments out of context is what media does today. Do you really want to be portrayed in the same way?

Here is what I said

1 hour ago, koltes said:

We wrote answer after answer to each other and I literally offered tons of solutions that could have united both camps. To which your answer was always solid:
- No, my way is the only way! - to all of them.
Then I came to the point of realization that I was there to make game working for everyone and you are here to make the game working for yourself

 

@jodgi, being cocky deserves cocky answers.

Edited June 14, 2017 by koltes

[Neptune]

This seems to be turning into a discussion more about yourself than the problem that is being presented. Just because you play on a lower population server and don't experience the revenge fleet crap, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Quite laughable actually. It seems you think your personal experiences outweigh everyone else's.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Neptune

[Koltes]

10 minutes ago, Neptune said:

This seems to be turning into a discussion more about yourself than the problem that is being presented. Just because you play on a lower population server and don't experience the revenge fleet crap, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Quite laughable actually. It seems you think your personal experiences outweigh everyone else's.

We have already been through server population argument. Your lot have been bringing this up even when YOUR server population dropped below 200 people. Global has 400 now and we don't have the ganking issue? What is your point?
Your argument is based on fear that we will go back to what it was before. My argument is based on lets give it a shot and test with a new game mechanics that were introduced since.

[Neptune]

Just now, koltes said:

Your argument is based on fear that we will go back to what it was before. My argument is based on lets give it a shot and test with a new game mechanics that were introduced since.

It's not, I wish it was because I wouldn't even be on the forum right now. EU 1 has revenge fleets, believe me.

Simple thing we are asking for is a speed buff at all angles of wind so that it kind of counters revenge fleets sitting on top of your battle location. This way you can make some distance without being tagged so easily but the revenge fleet still has a chance of catching you if they do it right. The problem is you can just keep tagging over and over. People may be fine with that 1-2 times but after a while they will seriously get sick of it. I already am, and If we just had a speed boost upon leaving battle to make a bit of seperation it wouldn't be so bad. This would fix a lot.

[King of Crowns]

mast thinkness. okay so mast thickness is to much 68lb carro cant break a connie mast at 50 meters. a 24lber.(connie) can only pen surprise mast at less than 100m.     42lb medium cannot penn a Bellona mast.  happy medium would be nice devs   make it hard but not impossible.

Edited June 14, 2017 by King of Crowns

[greybuscat]

15 hours ago, admin said:

• Demasting rebalanced. 
  • We were not satisfied that too many pvp fights focused only on demasting and it will be much harder to destroy lower mast sections from now on. 

 

Worst change you've made since I started playing in 2015. Demasting is historical, fun, speeds up battles, and more. If you want to adjust it, fine, but the current balance is broken.

[King of Crowns]

oh and since people want the conversion from pve to pvp. it needs to be risk based. therefore like 300 pve marks =1 PVP mark. seems like the right amount to me since there is 0 risk in pve. and 1/2 of this thread is about pvpers saying how hard pvp is.

thanks #elite

Edited June 14, 2017 by King of Crowns

[Koltes]

40 minutes ago, Neptune said:

It's not, I wish it was because I wouldn't even be on the forum right now. EU 1 has revenge fleets, believe me.

Simple thing we are asking for is a speed buff at all angles of wind so that it kind of counters revenge fleets sitting on top of your battle location. This way you can make some distance without being tagged so easily but the revenge fleet still has a chance of catching you if they do it right. The problem is you can just keep tagging over and over. People may be fine with that 1-2 times but after a while they will seriously get sick of it. I already am, and If we just had a speed boost upon leaving battle to make a bit of seperation it wouldn't be so bad. This would fix a lot.

Yeah man, I was under impression that this was battle entry timers argument. I agree that POS is not balanced and with hard speed cap kills the fast ships like Renommee.

My believe is that all they need to do to rebalance wind angles is to remove hard cap. Make base speed difference of the ships greater so Connie is much slower than Reno still and slightly nerf bonuses from mods like 1%. It will balance itself out without going to 17+kn speed setups.
POS escapomatrix will then prevail.

Hard cap is a lazy way to stop speed setups, but also kills fast ships purpose. If speed setup Connie can catch with speed setup Reno I see this as an issue and death of Reno as a glass cannon hunter.

Edited June 14, 2017 by koltes

[Koltes]

13 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

oh and since people want the conversion from pve to pvp. it needs to be risk based. therefore like 300 pve marks =1 PVP mark. seems like the right amount to me since there is 0 risk in pve. and 1/2 of this thread is about pvpers saying how hard pvp is.

thanks #elite

I have lots of PVP marks and crap all PVE. I would love to have such exchange rate

[King of Crowns]

possible solution to revenge fleet. 3 MIN invis timer and 5 min non attack timer after battle. to prevent using the invis timer to gank some one.

[Pagan Pete]

7 hours ago, Captain corn blower said:

So what you're saying is take away all the defenses of a Traders again so you can go seal clubbing on use I remember most military ships back then or heavily Laden with cannonballs powder and supplies for long stays at sea then couldn't run down most of their Quarry , that's also why you had Lookouts who scan the rise and looking for sales so that mean the traitor or pirate if it was an unfriendly shaped sail you would run the

Call me a seal clubber one more time...

Let me pick your invalid statement apart piece by piece;
"So what you're saying is take away all the defenses of a Traders" This argument is known as "Reduction to the absurd". Taking an argument far beyond what was actually said, to try and distort that argument. 
 Did I say, take all their defenses? No. No I clearly did not. I said, make them historically accurate. I actually support the guns on traders! Just not with Naval quality crews, for the aforementioned historically accurate reasons...

"so you can go seal clubbing" This is know as an "Ad Hominem" Attack. Say something mean about a person, fro try and undermine their actual position.
Did Pagan Pete get infamous by seal clubbing? No. No, he got infamous by taking on vessels 5 times his size, and winning… on a regular basis. And I don't mean AI ships neither.
"I remember most military ships back then or heavily Laden with cannonballs powder and supplies for long" Invalid. We are talking about trade ships here. Not Navy vessels.

"scan the rise and looking for sales (SIC) so that mean the traitor or pirate (SIC)" Historically inaccurate. Pyrate vessels could not be found until they actually hosted their black flag. Looking for them was pointless whilst at sea. Pyrates would pose as a merchant in order to get close to the prey… As ships that passed often exchanged news and mail, traded in necessities, and exchanged goods whilst at sea.

"if it was an unfriendly shaped sail you would run the" You could not usually determine what nationality a merchant vessel was from by her sail configuration. Navay vessels, yes. But most pyrates were converted merchant ships. There were Brigantine rigs, hybrid rigs, for and aft rigs etc… these were the main standard types.

FFPCS, think before you open yer mouth at me. Stick a dirty sock in it next time.
 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Pagan Pete
Extrapolation of details

[Vernon Merrill]

Half the current problem stems from the fact that if you don't have a 15-knot ship, you're as good as dead.  

In fact, you can have a teak/white oak Connie that will do 14.8 in battle and NEARLY keep up with a Surpise upwind.  

Its all about having good luck with RNG loot drops and/or money to burn buying magical books and perks.  

[Bach]

A lot of drama over things that are entirely under your control.  

Lets be honest here. If you think the battle is ONLY what happens inside the instance then that is half your problem right there.  The PvP contest is everything in the game environment before the instance is ever created and then it's the ships in the instance. 9 times out of ten I can tell you exactly how the instance portion of the battle is going to go as soon as the tag is made.  The shorter the join timers the more accurate the prediction as short timers, lack of reinforcement and consistent ship models remove many variables.  

By almost a similar percentage I can predict the revenge fleet, if any, based on observable in game factors.  If you haven't prepared for the expected revenge fleet before you enter the instance with your target then shame on you. You are only there to fight half the battle. The instance part.  If that's all you want go for the arena game when it comes out.  But if you want a WAR simulation all the strategy that comes outside the instance is part of the war. He who plans better succeeds more so than he who just created the best ship unit for an instance.  

The revenge fleet is a problem because your only actually playing the instance portion of the war.