Too much trading, and not enough Combat:

[Vllad]

24 minutes ago, Ned Low said:

Think logically, 

-Player grinds for 5 hours to save for his Trader Brig

-He Finally starts sailing it and hauling goods, on his last run for the day with full load of expensive cargo he gets sunk. 

-Player is put back into the starting place with all money lost, where 50% will not return to the game because it takes too much time and money to play it. 

-Same with frigate groups, it took players 1 day to grind money and get into Trincs, later they were ambushed by a larger group and all sunk. You won't see them on OS for another 4-5 days. Where is the promised Action here? This game is a grind fest and needs so much work. 

Logically that tells me I need to get into a Basic cutter or Privateer and go trader hunting myself. I can take a trader cutter with me to haul any ill gotten gains back with me and make up for the loses I suffered when I lost my trader brig. 

A basic cutter and trader cutter get me back at sea that day.

Logically if I lose my Trinc and my only back-up is a Mercury then I get my arse back in my Mercury and either go grind cash or I head back out to fight my enemies in my Mercury. Either way I am back in the water that day. 

I think you are missing the point. Putting you in missions is still putting you back in the OS. You can still be jumped by another realm while doing missions. The other point you are missing is Large ships are not the only means to conducting pvp. You can engage in effective PVP with any size ship. It just changes the type of PVP you are doing. If people are afraid to engage in PVP unless they are in their Trinc are missing out on many aspects of Naval Action. 

 

 

[Gared Kain]

2 minutes ago, Vllad said:

"Basic cutter"

 

But right now we're at the point where most of the PvP happening is just people griefing in these. In my opinion the BC needs to be rendered completely ineffective in PvP. Being spammed the way they are for riskless pvp for the user is getting more and more silly. That happening is doing nothing to improve on the state of the progression as it stands.

That being said. I agree with most of everything else you said. Being a Vet from EVE back in the day. The old "Don't fly what you cant afford to lose" comes to mind. And even heavy PvP players over there made sure they either had a ship for making money still or the assets to go out and get one.

[Daguse]

9 hours ago, Yar Matey said:

 

This is something I brought up a few times, but it has become an issue yet again...

There is a balance that needs to be maintained in a game like this between trading and PvE/PvP.  This patch has gone WAY too far with the trading required to enjoy the game.  For the last week since the patch has come out, 90% of my time has been spent trading and not enjoying the PvE and PvP aspects of the game (and all I wanted to do was sail my redeemable surprise).

What needs to happen to fix this current problem:

1)  Low tier cannons should be really cheap both to craft and buy

• Class 9:  10 gold per cannon
• Class 8:  20 
• Class 6:  50 
• Class 5:  100
• Class 4:  200
• Class 3:  300
• Class 2:  600
• Class 1:  1500 (36 lbs)
• Class 1:  2000 (42 lbs)

2)  Cannon material costs need to come WAY down!

• Class 9:  10 iron 5 coal for 10 cannons
• Class 8:  15 iron 7 coal
• Class 6:  20 iron 10 coal 
• Class 5:  25 iron 13 coal
• Class 4:  35 iron 18 coal
• Class 3:  45 iron 23 coal
• Class 2:  58 iron 30 coal
• Class 1:  65 iron 34 coal (36 lbs)
• class 1:   75 iron 40 coal (42 lbs)

3)  Rum, Hull Repairs, and Rig Repairs should be sold by NPC's in the shop at every port but crafting them should be a cheaper alternative to buying from the NPC shop.

4)  NPC ships should have better loot (more rum, hull repairs, rig repairs) and some random trade goods.  

These changes above will help players get into ships to join the action faster.  If the costs of outfitting ships is too expensive, then it adds to the time it takes to get into the action and enjoy the game.  Trading should be a minor part of the game and the combat should be a much bigger part of the game.

Assume your target audience has 1 hour of game time a night to play your game.  This means for a full week, 7 hours of playing (lets assume 8 hours for a week), 15-20% of that time should be spent trading and crafting and 80-85% of that time should be spent in combat.  This means 1.5 hours trading and 6.5 hours in combat.  

So for all intensive purposes the game just came out. People need quick reliable cash, that means trading. Give it some time and you'll see more PVP.  He'll ran into some Pirates last night. 

This goes back to the Sheep, the Sheep Dog and the Wolfs thing. 
You need Sheep to populate the world... Traders.
Wolfs will see the tasty sheep and hunt them.... Pirates. 
Sheep Dogs will come to defend the Sheep.... Coast Guard.

 

[Yar Matey]

2 hours ago, Vllad said:

Logically that tells me I need to get into a Basic cutter or Privateer and go trader hunting myself. I can take a trader cutter with me to haul any ill gotten gains back with me and make up for the loses I suffered when I lost my trader brig. 

A basic cutter and trader cutter get me back at sea that day.

Logically if I lose my Trinc and my only back-up is a Mercury then I get my arse back in my Mercury and either go grind cash or I head back out to fight my enemies in my Mercury. Either way I am back in the water that day. 

A dog eat dog way of thinking.  What this eventually does is stagnate the economy and playerbase.  What happens in practice is people actually going out to do trading are constantly losing their cargo and trade ships, thus all you will ever get is combat against players in trade ships trying to move up into a war ship.  I cant even get myself into a 5th rate without running around and gathering mats.  If people like you keep going out and taking my goods, you will never encounter me in a war ship because I cannot get myself into one.  This also assumes that disgruntled players just dont quit.  

Edited June 1, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Remus]

17 hours ago, Blackbrook said:

Maybe we need a trader tool (in game or in the net) which you can use to calculate decent prices (resources, materials, ships, modules).  Default values could be based on level 1 buildings and default for labour hours could be 100g/h.

Use table 13 in this thread. It's up to date. You'll also need table 15 if you want ship prices, to add on woods and trim. Personally I'm using cash price plus 100 per LH, then a little bit extra to cover listing fees. I very quickly sold 60 long 9s for 1990 ea, which I reckon is a fair price for now. When the servers settle down I'll maybe adjust things up or down as the case may be.

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Remus

[Vllad]

7 hours ago, Yar Matey said:

A dog eat dog way of thinking.  What this eventually does is stagnate the economy and playerbase.  What happens in practice is people actually going out to do trading are constantly losing their cargo and trade ships, thus all you will ever get is combat against players in trade ships trying to move up into a war ship.  I cant even get myself into a 5th rate without running around and gathering mats.  If people like you keep going out and taking my goods, you will never encounter me in a war ship because I cannot get myself into one.  This also assumes that disgruntled players just dont quit.  

Excellent point Yar Matey. 

It is your nation/clans responsibility to ensure your safety. If you are in my clan you will not be sailing alone and acting as bait for the nearest pirate or privateer. If you are in my clan you will not only be protected but supported in your trade runs if you are killed. You would be given new trade ships and a hand up to get you going again. As a pvper I need trade runners like yourself to keep me up to my eyeballs in ships, repairs and everything else I need to kill other nations. It only behooves me that you are protected. Assuming of course you are making trade runs to help support the clan and team rather than just yourself. 

If your clan or nation isn't supporting you, you should consider moving to one who will. 

 

If you are one of those solo players who are just hear to earn as much gold as possible well... take your chances OR start putting that gold to use by hiring real privateers to guard you. If you are on the French team on the Global server I am always available for hire. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Barbancourt]

8 hours ago, Yar Matey said:

If people like you keep going out and taking my goods, you will never encounter me in a war ship because I cannot get myself into one.  This also assumes that disgruntled players just dont quit.  

I'm sure the idea of the game is that they're skimming off you instead of completely crushing you as a trader, but yes a players losing their only trader brig and what they think is a make-or-break cargo certainly brings the potential for rage-quits.  I've heard people talking about "If I lose this cargo I'm just gonna quit" in game.   

[Barbancourt]

1 hour ago, Vllad said:

It is your nation/clans responsibility to ensure your safety.

 

Sounds good in theory, but it can be hard to find people headed the same way at the same time as you are.  If I log on before work and want to squeeze in a three hour sail in that time window, it's going to be random chance for someone else to have the time and inclination to go along for hours at just that time.  If they remove the teleport to capitol in future an escort is going to also have a long return trip.  If I get the urge to hunt traders in a distant county, what's the likelyhood someone else will be interested in that too?  Is there a reasonable amount you could actually offer someone to get them to do not much else but follow you around for hours? 

Edited June 2, 2017 by rownd

[Vllad]

29 minutes ago, rownd said:

Sounds good in theory, but it can be hard to find people headed the same way at the same time as you are.  If I log on before work and want to squeeze in a three hour sail in that time window, it's going to be random chance for someone else to have the time and inclination to go along for hours at just that time.  If they remove the teleport to capitol in future an escort is going to also have a long return trip.  If I get the urge to hunt traders in a distant county, what's the likelyhood someone else will be interested in that too?  Is there a reasonable amount you could actually offer someone to get them to do not much else but follow you around for hours? 

 

I do it for 30k per hour per escort at a 15k minimum per escort as a Privateer and I take all the loot in any pvp fight we get into. I do it for free for my clan and for free if bringing non trade goods to the capitol. 

Prices are negotiable and I take on all the risk if I lose any combats. 

I may charge more if you are just moving around trade goods and padding your own wallet. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Vllad

[Blackbrook]

13 hours ago, Remus said:

Use table 13 in this thread. It's up to date. You'll also need table 15 if you want ship prices, to add on woods and trim. Personally I'm using cash price plus 100 per LH, then a little bit extra to cover listing fees. I very quickly sold 60 long 9s for 1990 ea*, which I reckon is a fair price for now. When the servers settle down I'll maybe adjust things up or down as the case may be.

Thanks, but my programming skills are not adequate for that. At least not yet. 

[Justme]

The problem is the devs are listening to the portion of the games population that feels logging in, setting your ship  to sail and then watching porn for hours on end is exciting gameplay when for normal gamers is sleep inducing.

Legends sadly will not fix the issue, there are plenty of players who want more than a quick fight but not be forced into endless hours of mind numbingly boring trade sim just to be able to afford one PVP battle.

 

[JollyRoger1516]

On 01/06/2017 at 0:00 PM, Powderhorn said:

If your cannons are costing more than 1500 each, someone is making 100% profit on them.  You should consider competing with them and drive the price down.

If your concern is that too many people are trading and you're not getting enough PvP...  go hunt the traders...?  I promise you, people will come out to fight you.

Completely delusional statement. If you have your resources and labour hours(=100 gold each) paid (after all a dedicated craftsman doesn't just cover his resource cost) then already 9lbs longs reach 1492.5 total production cost. Lets assume that we use the payment for labour hours as our profit that means that there are only 3 long cannons that can realistically be produced in your envisioned price range!!!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-TjUkdMdklYubcIb_kuiGqLWkgBAT4QT08BErNj16g8/edit#gid=1151416251

Hunt traders? On global the only nation that is well attackable is the Brits. As pirates regularly hide themselves in their own battles they can't be reliably attacked. Every other nation is miles away from most (Danes Swedes can fight each other but the rest can't reach em). Without teleports the use of free ports means that you'd ahve to make a 1 hour sail to La Mona and then wouldn't be able to leave the region until you commit to another 1 hour sail. With the holds being as small as they are I'd have to sail home after 2 attacks (even if taking the trader in fleet he is probably filled with his own goods) - can you see why people won't commit to 2 hours of sail for 2 attacks? The only reason to attack traders right now is to piss of another nations players - that always hits the new guys the hardest.

[fox2run]

On 2/6/2017 at 0:59 AM, Vllad said:

Excellent point Yar Matey. 

It is your nation/clans responsibility to ensure your safety. If you are in my clan you will not be sailing alone and acting as bait for the nearest pirate or privateer. If you are in my clan you will not only be protected but supported in your trade runs if you are killed. You would be given new trade ships and a hand up to get you going again. As a pvper I need trade runners like yourself to keep me up to my eyeballs in ships, repairs and everything else I need to kill other nations. It only behooves me that you are protected. Assuming of course you are making trade runs to help support the clan and team rather than just yourself. 

If your clan or nation isn't supporting you, you should consider moving to one who will. 

 

If you are one of those solo players who are just hear to earn as much gold as possible well... take your chances OR start putting that gold to use by hiring real privateers to guard you. If you are on the French team on the Global server I am always available for hire. 

 

 

 

 

 

Could work with a mega-player base- But with around 500 players online in a big OW there are no possibility to coordinate things. And the game mechanisms dont allow it either.

[Vllad]

3 hours ago, fox2run said:

Could work with a mega-player base- But with around 500 players online in a big OW there are no possibility to coordinate things. And the game mechanisms dont allow it either.

 

We have 30 ish players in the French nation on Global and it works just fine.

[Slamz]

5 hours ago, fox2run said:

Could work with a mega-player base- But with around 500 players online in a big OW there are no possibility to coordinate things. And the game mechanisms dont allow it either.

Last night in France...

French trader gets jumped by a USA Endymion near Camp Du Roy. Trader was smart enough to run for the forts so he got away. By the time the Endymion was out, the French hounds were out and looking for him. He got away (picked an unusual exit angle and was super fast) but he got run out of the area by random French that read nation chat and showed up to look for him.

So that was the only trader he got to hit.

France is no "mega-player base". We just actually pay attention to nation chat and beat the war drums on clan channels when needed.

I don't know why you say things can't be coordinated or that mechanics don't allow it.

I'm pretty curious what team you're on and where you operate that it's so risky and why you can't seem to get any help. Do people in your nation chat just never respond? Are there no clans you're willing to try joining? If it's working for France I see no reason it can't work for whatever you're doing.