Kickstarter ship packs poll (redux)

[Fluffy Fishy]

At this point, I feel like I would almost personally fund the addition of a Venetian pack, no matter the cost, at least there would be some nice ships to dislodge the Agamemnon monopoly.

[Lord Vicious]

6 hours ago, Hethwill said:

They worked as intended to prize ships. But he had an issue. He had to equip her with whatever cannons he could find and many had measure differences.

In NA we don't have that issue.

Interesting that the QAR is brought up. Biggest ship I could find being sailed by pirates was a 70 gun man'owar. Never used for raiding and abandoned eventually. She had half the cannon when they took her far north of Madagascar.

IF you referer to Henry Every, and the Fancy, it got 50 cannons roughly.  different source differ between 44 and 56 and he made it get razeed for go faster but yeah the majority where 12-18 pounders

 

She defeated in combat a 62 guns indian ship with 400 musket guards on board

 

another interesting story/ship 

The Speaker, a 50-gun slave ship, was captured by Captain George Booth and John Bowen in April of 1700. The ship, with a crew of over 200 men, became a pirate ship that defeated an entire fleet of 13 Moorish ships to win a prize worth £100,000 (£8 million today).

Edited February 1, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[Hethwill]

There's a few accounts.

The particular case I pointed was a Portuguese man'owar. Silly enough she has making the pass of a noble family with entourage and a diamond cargo IIRC. Was listed as a 70 gun but due to cargo needs the complement had to be reduced to find space. The pirates did leave the entourage and family their older ship and passed with the man'owar but due to shortage of hands to man it properly they eventually abandoned her for a more manageable ship.

Regarding a Pirate ship pack it is a odd one given the ships were simply captured, adjusted as needed - mainly the rigging - and then used until decayed/lost.

Maybe the new shipbuilding system gives us that already  to balance some of the ship characteristics to specific needs.

[Sella]

As long as the proposed ships are not from the usual nations i am up for it

The problem, i think, is that the people/devs that design the ships actually prefer or even require very detailed plans of the ships for design and mostly gameplay reasons. But most of the plans presented in the forums are not as detailed as others. For example ships that can be built as models and have extremely detailed plans like this : 

 

Compared to an original plan like this:

 

 

 

It would be nice if we could get some info from the devs about what is required or prefered in the possibility of modelling a new ship. Something like a textbook for this case. Maybe @Hethwill can help us a bit here? Forwarding this question to the devs?

Edited February 1, 2017 by Sella22

[Hethwill]

I reckon any model builders team, really wanting to go 62 pounder balls deep into it, can reach them directly through Admin message

It is my understanding that a KS needs a defined project and a team to see it through  !?

 

[maturin]

9 hours ago, Lord Vicious said:

 

The Speaker, a 50-gun slave ship, was captured by Captain George Booth and John Bowen in April of 1700. The ship, with a crew of over 200 men, became a pirate ship that defeated an entire fleet of 13 Moorish ships to win a prize worth £100,000 (£8 million today).

Just looking up what you left out of the Wikipedia paraphrasing:

Speaker was a 450-ton ship, making it less than half the tonnage of a 50-gun 4th Rate. Considerably smaller than the 28-gun Cerberus, even. That tells you what kind of 'guns' were on board, given that you can't jam more than 30 guns on the main deck, and even that would be a dangerous/difficult.

Bear in mind that in this period, the less authoritative sources (and especially the few sensationalist sources on pirates) tend to count swivel guns in the gun counts. These aren't sober naval or maritime records, they are about pyrates(!!!!!).

And the Moorish ships fled instead of fighting, so your introduction of the word "defeated" is a bit tendentious. 

AFAIK no one has ever cited a tonnage estimate for Fancy, but the crew was around 150 men (again, considerably less than the complement for 28-gun Cerberus). So either most of those guns were swivels, or they couldn't actually fight them. As evinced by the fact that Fancy ran from three east indiamen at one point.

[Saulz]

23 hours ago, Prater said:

Where are the pirates going to get 24lbers?

 

I agree that we just need a Conni replacement, not a whole US ship pack.  Focus on other nations.

But people who say the US played an irrelevant role and barely in the time period and are therefore over represented don't know what they are talking about.  In the early 1800s around the time of the 1812 war, the US was 2nd in merchant shipping, had over 10,000 vessels, 69,000 seamen, and shipped over 1 million metric tons a year.  The NE was heavily involved in shipbuilding, and the capture of the USS President in the 1812 war led the British to make design changes to their heavy frigates.  All this by, what at the time was, a small and new nation.  Let us also not forget who we come from, the British, and their naval tradition was ingrained in us.  All our major cities were ports with major shipbuilding and shipping operations, and due to our mostly neutral positions, meant our shipping was going all over the world.  Further, we had unlimited resources for shipbuilding.  A common sight in that period would be an American brig, similar to the brig in game, or an American Topsail schooner, like the Lynx and others.  While the Navy was small, the "privatized" area was not, and would deal a heavy blow in both the Revolution and War of 1812 to the British merchant marine.

Omg this is what I was about to post! In fact the time period the game takes place would make the U.S. one of the most relevant factions....The problem is people only seem to focus on large ships of war I guess.

[Hethwill]

51 minutes ago, Saulz said:

Omg this is what I was about to post! In fact the time period the game takes place would make the U.S. one of the most relevant factions....The problem is people only seem to focus on large ships of war I guess.

A large part yes. Many players like the opposite part of the sizes no matter the "nation".

Like that question, being a french design, built in dutch shipyards under commission by the royal navy.

Is it a french, dutch or british ship ?

[Lord Vicious]

On 1/2/2017 at 2:26 PM, maturin said:

Just looking up what you left out of the Wikipedia paraphrasing:

Speaker was a 450-ton ship, making it less than half the tonnage of a 50-gun 4th Rate. Considerably smaller than the 28-gun Cerberus, even. That tells you what kind of 'guns' were on board, given that you can't jam more than 30 guns on the main deck, and even that would be a dangerous/difficult.

Bear in mind that in this period, the less authoritative sources (and especially the few sensationalist sources on pirates) tend to count swivel guns in the gun counts. These aren't sober naval or maritime records, they are about pyrates(!!!!!).

And the Moorish ships fled instead of fighting, so your introduction of the word "defeated" is a bit tendentious. 

AFAIK no one has ever cited a tonnage estimate for Fancy, but the crew was around 150 men (again, considerably less than the complement for 28-gun Cerberus). So either most of those guns were swivels, or they couldn't actually fight them. As evinced by the fact that Fancy ran from three east indiamen at one point.

 

1) i didnt quote wikipedia

2) tell me how many usa firstrate  where going around in the period this game is set please, since ppl like you jump in historical arguments only when we talk about pirate ships

3) is not my words i quoted so i didnt use any "tendentious sentence.

 

Fancy and others ships defeat a 62gun indian ship, so pirates where able to defeat navy ships, they chose not to use such ships for lack of mens and ability to keep up this ships operative, but thats what all na is about.  What potentially  any nation could have done, pirates included.  not what happened becouse we are not doing a re-inactment. maybe our pirates player will perform better then real pirates

Otherwise the only nation with a first rate in the caribbean would be spain france and britain.

 

 

 

[Hethwill]

Topic is about ship packs.

Given all pirate ships are "national" ships we are all on accord.

[Prater]

Actually, maturin has been pretty consistent over the years as far as I remember when it comes to historical ships and gameplay.

 

The difference between Pirates and the US is that the US had means to build firstrates and man them, whereas pirates did not.  Also, a 62 gun (what size guns??) Indiaman is not a navy ship.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Independence_(1814)

This US 90 gun 2nd rate launched in 1814 would have decimated most other ship of the lines (1st rates even) if captained and manned well and supported well by other ships provided it didn't capsize due to the overly heavy armament.  90 32lb guns.

 

Did the British have any first rates in the new world?  I can't find any.  I can find at least 1 French first rate, and of course the Santisima was built at Havana.

[Fluffy Fishy]

38 minutes ago, Prater said:

Did the British have any first rates in the new world?  I can't find any.  I can find at least 1 French first rate, and of course the Santisima was built at Havana.

I have some fleet distribution charts but they don't differentiate between various ship ratings below I will list the numbers posted for only the SoLs below.

Americas May 1795;
Nova Scotia Squadron - 3
Leeward Uskabds Sqadron - 8
Jamaca Squadron - 3

Americas June 1808;
North American Squadron - 2
Jamaca Squadron - 1
Leeward Islands Squadron - 5
Brazil - 6

Other Locations May 1795;
Mediterranean Fleet - 16
Convoy Protection - 3
East India - 5
British Isles and Home waters - 67

Other Locations June 1808;
Mediterranean Fleet - 29
Portuguese Coast - 11
Convoys - 2
Cape of Good Hope - 4
Baltic - 13
East India - 6
British Isles and Home waters - 27
 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Fluffy Fishy

[Prater]

Ya, I know they had ship of the lines, but not 1st rates.  Highest I can find is a 98gun 2nd rate.

[Fluffy Fishy]

Just now, Prater said:

Ya, I know they had ship of the lines, but not 1st rates.  Highest I can find is a 98gun 2nd rate.

I kind of figured you would have something yourself, thought it might be worth sharing for others though

Although to be fair it doesn't really make tactical sense to post a bunch of super heavy ships to those regions anyway, it makes more sense to guard them with a mix of 3rds and frigates, maybe with the occasional 2nd here and there when tensions get high. The only reasons I can think for posting a fleet of 1st rates in the Caribbean is if there was a major engagement, if a hostile fleet did the same, there is always HMS St Lawrence if you count that, but I personally don't.

[Prater]

I just looked for lists of British ship of the line deployments.  I couldnt really find a full list beyond just mentioning "ship of the lines" with no reference to rating, so I started looking at battles and those included the actual ship names and guns.  Just wondering if anyone knows if the British ever deployed first rates across the Atlantic.  I've found French 1st rates and Spanish, but that's it.

 

I know about the lake 112 gun, I'm not really counting that because it was built on the lake and never left it.

[Lord Vicious]

3 hours ago, Prater said:

Actually, maturin has been pretty consistent over the years as far as I remember when it comes to historical ships and gameplay.

 

The difference between Pirates and the US is that the US had means to build firstrates and man them, whereas pirates did not.  Also, a 62 gun (what size guns??) Indiaman is not a navy ship.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Independence_(1814)

This US 90 gun 2nd rate launched in 1814 would have decimated most other ship of the lines (1st rates even) if captained and manned well and supported well by other ships provided it didn't capsize due to the overly heavy armament.  90 32lb guns.

 

Did the British have any first rates in the new world?  I can't find any.  I can find at least 1 French first rate, and of course the Santisima was built at Havana.

Ganj-i-Sawai,  where the flagship of the grand mughal empire and got escort also, so not an indiaman. Find me an indiaman  with 400-500 muskets on board and other 500 ppl as crew,   the pirates manage to destroy the mainmast with a cannon volley so the superior crew and armed ship was a fish in a barrel.

 

So again no usa firstrates, just a fail of a ship who never did anything , wich is a monstruosity probably slow as hello kitty unable to catch anything who got razeed for being usable

With IFs you not make history. sorry.   

Edited February 3, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[Mirones]

i would like an oldscool shippack with all the goodies from 1670-1730's

like the French 80gun 3decker with an high gothic stern.

 

[Fluffy Fishy]

6 hours ago, Lord Vicious said:

So again no usa firstrates, just a fail of a ship who never did anything , wich is a monstruosity probably slow as hello kitty unable to catch anything who got razeed for being usable

She looks like an armed bath tub, she has less draft than the constitution and a ridiculous broadside, there is no doubt that she would be forced to fire each deck separately not to endanger herself, i'm surprised she made it over at least two trans Atlantic voyages too. As a show of strength she seems like a useful warship which seems to be what she was made for but in an actual fight she looks like she would sail like an brick and have to be careful about the use of her firepower. She seems more like an experimental project than a viable warship, which is one of the main reasons why I imagine she spent such a long time in ordinary before being razeed, if anything though her razee is more interesting than the original construction due to the fact she was supposedly one of the fastest ships in the US navy. After she was cut down I'm not sure of her armaments exactly but if she was a rocket armed with 54 x 32 lbs I'm not sure I'd want to get in her way.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Fluffy Fishy

[Hethwill]

Still US shall build ships up to 4th rates and pirates will have to steal them. Changes nothing at all on the fact that pirate ships is more in regards of their use by pirates than the design itself.

I cannot dettach any interesting look onto pirate ships from the difficulties. Despite he 40+ guns on the QAR ( being the start of the brainstorm ) it meant a logistic nightmare given the disparity between guns mounted, from 1 to 6 pounders, from a variety or origins, swedish, spanish. They had to adapt to what they had and on occasion they would steal canvas, powder, shot and water and let the prize go free.

No, if we pull the pirate card - and I love the idea of having the Outlaws - we cannot simply make them all positive without any concessions of credible realism.

Pirates adapted the ships they captured. They didn't build anything other than pirogues and kinky sloops.

 

[Prater]

14 hours ago, Lord Vicious said:

Ganj-i-Sawai,  where the flagship of the grand mughal empire and got escort also, so not an indiaman. Find me an indiaman  with 400-500 muskets on board and other 500 ppl as crew,   the pirates manage to destroy the mainmast with a cannon volley so the superior crew and armed ship was a fish in a barrel.

 

So again no usa firstrates, just a fail of a ship who never did anything , wich is a monstruosity probably slow as hello kitty unable to catch anything who got razeed for being usable

With IFs you not make history. sorry.   

The 90 gunner still existed.  The US built 3rd rates, superfrigates, and all below.  They started working on a 1st rate in 1821.  The British, as far as I can tell, didn't have 1st rates in North America, South America, or the Caribbean.  Pirates didn't have anything larger than a 5th rate in the Caribbean.  So, yes, I'm for restricting the US up to 2nd rates, if the British are restricted to 2nd rates and the pirates have to capture their ships.  The difference between the US and the pirates, as many have said countless times, is that the US had the means to build ships, large ships.

 

Ganj-i-Sawai  was a trading ship.  Also, the pirates never captured it.  They looted it, then sent it on its merry way to continue its journey.  Considering Every only had 150 crew, I think we can safely say that the 46 guns on Fancy were light, especially when we look at the time period, and as has been said, a good many of them swivels.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Prater

[Ned Loe]

32 minutes ago, Prater said:

The 90 gunner still existed.  The US built 3rd rates, superfrigates, and all below.  They started working on a 1st rate in 1821.  The British, as far as I can tell, didn't have 1st rates in North America, South America, or the Caribbean.  Pirates didn't have anything larger than a 5th rate in the Caribbean.  So, yes, I'm for restricting the US up to 2nd rates, if the British are restricted to 2nd rates and the pirates have to capture their ships.  The difference between the US and the pirates, as many have said countless times, is that the US had the means to build ships, large ships.

 

Ganj-i-Sawai  was a trading ship.  Also, the pirates never captured it.  They looted it, then sent it on its merry way to continue its journey.  Considering Every only had 150 crew, I think we can safely say that the 46-62 guns on Fancy were light, especially when we look at the time period, and as has been said, a good many of them swivels.

Restricting 1st rates will be a dumb move. With Pirates, I would agree. Their largest Refit should be 3rd rate and everything else should be capped, but not Built. Unless they are accepted as a Nation. By Refit I mean they can Cap NPC and rebuild it. NPC is free, but rebuild will cost mats and will have Duras.

Remember if you push too much realism this game will come out garbage. We are not building a simulator here. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Ned Loe

[maturin]

17 hours ago, Prater said:

I just looked for lists of British ship of the line deployments.  I couldnt really find a full list beyond just mentioning "ship of the lines" with no reference to rating, so I started looking at battles and those included the actual ship names and guns.  Just wondering if anyone knows if the British ever deployed first rates across the Atlantic.  I've found French 1st rates and Spanish, but that's it.

British First Rates visited the Americas, of course. Nelson took Victory to Barbados in pursuit of Villeneuve. But there was little reason to station such a powerful ship there.

 

Quote

Find me an indiaman  with 400-500 muskets on board and other 500 ppl as crew, 

It was an armed ship transporting many civilians and families. The Mughals fired one shot, had a cannon blow up in their face, and then gave up. There's no comparison to a warship from a European navy with a dedicated crew in fighting trim. It's mission was transporting treasure and people, with guns to protect it. That makes it an armed transport.

I'm not sure what the point is anyways, because the prize was never used as a pirate ship.

[Prater]

2 minutes ago, maturin said:

British First Rates visited the Americas, of course. Nelson took Victory to Barbados in pursuit of Villeneuve. But there was little reason to station such a powerful ship there.

Ah, thanks.  Well scratch what I said above about British 1st rates in the new world.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Prater

[Lord Vicious]

6 hours ago, maturin said:

British First Rates visited the Americas, of course. Nelson took Victory to Barbados in pursuit of Villeneuve. But there was little reason to station such a powerful ship there.

 

It was an armed ship transporting many civilians and families.(false or partially true it got 80+annons 400 soldiers and was heavy armed and yes also have passengers, but the soldiers alone outnumbered Henry ship crew 3:1) The Mughals fired one shot, had a cannon blow up in their face, and then gave up (false). There's no comparison to a warship from a European navy with a dedicated crew in fighting trim. (funny becouse Henry Avery was a brit officer who got control of his british corsair ship thx to a munity so it was a military crew and a military ship )It's mission was transporting treasure and people, with guns to protect it. That makes it an armed transport.  (beside it was the admiral ship of the moghul and was also escorted by other minor ships)

I'm not sure what the point is anyways, because the prize was never used as a pirate ship.         (point was to show that as "usa" could potentially do first and 2nd, pirates also could potentially put their hands on bigger ships  and in fact they did (they captured 60-70 cannons ships), and then they chose not to use it for lack of crew/ capabiliies to keep it operative)

 

Your approach is all but scientific, you make false assumption not backed by any source.

 (beside the fact you distort facts for boost your version, there is not a single source that claim that they stop to fight after the cannon exploded let alone that exploded at the start of the fight  , or that they shoot only once before surrender  ) So all false statements with no source purely for boost your biased anti pirate point of view.

 

For be a naval scientist you seams incredibly approximative about your affermations, and you never quote any source.  to back up your fantasy stories.

 

The  Ganj-i-Sawai  got 80+ cannons 500 musket armed soldiers, and no it not shooted once and stop fight, they fight for hours , and yes 1 cannon explode but they didnt stop to fight it , in fact every source quote that  it took another 2h  after the explosion before they finally surrend

The ship was also escorted by other minor ships.   IT carry the doter of the  mughal rulers, so it was heavily defended and escorted. The pirates got lucky they manage to demast it  in the early stage of the engagements becouse they where both outnumbered and outgunned by the  Ganj-i-Sawai and its fleet

 

And the pirates not where 150 as in a very biased way a very uninformed prater say,     They got an entire fleet of ships many sloops etc   the pirates where numbering between 400 and 1000 (numbers depends in various sources) 

 

 

In August of 1695, Every and the crew aboard the Fancy reached the Straits of Bab-el-Mandeb and began preparing for their ambush. It was here that they joined forces with five other pirate captains including Thomas Tew on the Amity with sixty pirates. The other pirate captains were Joseph Faro with the Portsmouth Adventure along with sixty pirates, Richard Want with the Dolphin and sixty men, William Mayes with the Pearl and thirty-forty pirates and Thomas Wake with the Susanna and seventy pirates. All of these pirates had privateering commissions from all across the Eastern seaboard of the North American colonies.

Despite the fact that Tew had more experience in the area, Every was elected admiral of the six pirate ship flotilla and commanded a total of over 400 pirates. Together they all lay in ambush for the treasure convoy to pass through.

Every Chasing the Great Mughal Ship - The Sea (1887)

Eventually the Mughal treasure convoy did pass right in front of the pirates in the straights of Surat. The treasure convoy was comprised of twenty-five ships including the 1,600 ton flagship Ganj-i-sawai. This ship was a massive, eighty cannon behemoth that was loaded to the brim with treasure along with the 600-ton Fateh Muhammed escort. The convoy managed to initially run from the pirates however, the pirates gave chase.

 

The Ganj-i-sawai was a massive warship that boasted eighty cannons, an armed crew of nearly four hundred along with 600 regular passengers. The ship was commanded by Muhammad Ibrahim and was determined to give nothing for free to the pirates. However, Every's opening broadside luckily destroyed the mainmast of the ship, crippling it in the water. With the ship incapacitated, Every and his crew began to board the ship. Initially being repelled by musket volleys, the pirates were not so easily deterred. When a cannon exploded on the deck and killed several Indians, the pirates took advantage of the chaos and confusion to climb up the steep sides of the ship.

~ Keep it clean. Do not make a good discussion a personal fight. Personal rebuke removed. ~ The Moderation Team

[Prater]

The crew of Fancy was 150 crew.  My bias and "uninformedness" has nothing to do about that.  That is what the sources say.  You know, bias works both ways.  Perhaps you are so biased you are attempting to inflate things?

Edited February 3, 2017 by Prater