Asset wipe needed now.

[admin]

I also believe to truly test Econ, an asset wipe is needed. Maybe I'll try to play on PvP2 & see how it goes.

 

 

You could recruit/request a bunch of volunteer players to undergo a personal wipe to test the new Econn, without taking everyone else for the ride.

 

 

i am also for a asset wipe , to see how the change work out when starting with nothing

someone posted a good idea on the testing server where everything is wiped for everything. We will think it through.. i think the idea has merit. 

[Æthlstan]

If folks want to wipe assets, they can delete their character and start anew.

Let the rest of us that have fewer spare hours on our hands, retain the progress we have attained.

An asset wipe needs to happen taranis. One is coming at release anyways.

Once the devs are satisfied with everything and they plan on making no additional changes, they should do a complete asset wipe, announce a beta, andvertise the beta, and bring in a whole new influx of players that are starting in relatively the same place as the alpha testers.

Beta should be at least 3 months before release with another asset wipe afterwards.

After release, special redeemables can be given as a reward to alpha players if the devs so choose, but I feel that it shouldnt be anything that gives a significant advantage.

The worst thing for a new MMO is to have a significant part of the population not only max level, but to already have accumulated massive stocks of ships, money, resources, and materials.

Im right there with you. You and I dump some serious cash into new players. I rarely have more than a million gold because Im always spending it on the clan or new players or transfers in some way or another. But you and I do that to mitigate the grind new guys have to go through, so they can enjoy this game more fully.

Now imagine if we all started from scratch again and we went on a massive recruiting spree. Those new players would be in the same boat everyone else is, and we wouldnt have to bear the brunt of financing them with gold and ships because it will be a while before anyone has massive stored stocks again.

We are alpha testers. We test this game and provide our feedback to ensure the game is successful at release. We've known wipes are possible.

If its whats best for the game, we shouldnt complain.

Id rather this game thrive at release, rather than die and leave me with heaps of worthless virtual assets.

[Taranis]

[...]  After release, special redeemables can be given as a reward to alpha players if the devs so choose, but I feel that it shouldnt be anything that gives a significant advantage.  [...]

 

I mean to remain open minded on the subject - but again: the present players have provided significant value in the development of the game in the form of (1) funds ($40), (2) time, (3) variability of systems & connectivity, (4) content and (5) feedback.  As you know, some of us do not get to spend as many hours in game as others - the consequent impact of an asset wipe is thus not proportional on all.

 

Even more irritating is the concept that the game would then be discounted at launch to entice new players into joining the game.  While i appreciate the value of having more players in this game - the simple visceral perception is: we get to pay more and waste our time attaining achievements we will not get to keep?  This is not a closed testing game.  Other players can join at any time - but it is their current choice not to.  Thus any differential in progress is their choice.  Also, why would these hypothetical future players be given a preferential treatment?  We have all had to go through rings to get where we are.

 

As many ships as we may have - we can only sail one at the time.

 

Now, the argument that this is an alfa stage game.  Sorry, but i don't agree.  One does not charge nor have steep treadmills/grinding mechanisms for alfa staged software.  When you test an alfa game: you make the variables you mean to test available for said testing to take place.  So, why are all ships not available to all?  Why are funds restricted?...  We are deep into Beta at this point.  In fact, as others have observed, many games now qualify themselves as "alfa" or "beta" as marketing tactic.

 

Regardless, if we mean to wipe the game, and have conversations that do not inspire the ire of players, then we should contemplate the whole proposal: player contributions and progress should be considered and a meaningful trade be tabled.  The alternative based on prior experience is that many players will lose interest / heart / trust in the game.  Look at the number of players we both know, that left pvp2 and have not come back, in wait of the developers figuring out what they mean to do with the game.

 

Aarrrrggggg! We be negotiating now lads!

Edited October 27, 2016 by TaranisPrime

[Hethwill]

A hobby is never a waste of time.

[KrakkenSmacken]

An asset wipe needs to happen taranis. One is coming at release anyways.

Once the devs are satisfied with everything and they plan on making no additional changes, they should do a complete asset wipe, announce a beta, andvertise the beta, and bring in a whole new influx of players that are starting in relatively the same place as the alpha testers.

Beta should be at least 3 months before release with another asset wipe afterwards.

After release, special redeemables can be given as a reward to alpha players if the devs so choose, but I feel that it shouldnt be anything that gives a significant advantage.

The worst thing for a new MMO is to have a significant part of the population not only max level, but to already have accumulated massive stocks of ships, money, resources, and materials.

Im right there with you. You and I dump some serious cash into new players. I rarely have more than a million gold because Im always spending it on the clan or new players or transfers in some way or another. But you and I do that to mitigate the grind new guys have to go through, so they can enjoy this game more fully.

Now imagine if we all started from scratch again and we went on a massive recruiting spree. Those new players would be in the same boat everyone else is, and we wouldnt have to bear the brunt of financing them with gold and ships because it will be a while before anyone has massive stored stocks again.

We are alpha testers. We test this game and provide our feedback to ensure the game is successful at release. We've known wipes are possible.

If its whats best for the game, we shouldnt complain.

Id rather this game thrive at release, rather than die and leave me with heaps of worthless virtual assets.

 

I don't think that's even valuable to test.

 

First:  If the economy does not balance itself out at the high end of game play, it is broken, a break you will not be able to detect without high end game players. An asset wipe would remove the ability to test high level econn and impact for weeks to months.

 

Second: only the very earliest players are going to experience a world where there is no aid.  I know enough, and other vets know enough, that the only barrier to being in the best ships, is how fast you can grind out BP's.  The devs have a commitment to not wipe levels and XP, so there will never be a second grind for gaining craft or battle XP.

 

So any player can chose to experience starting over now.  Switch nations twice, or jump servers, and poof, your at the same place financially as a new player. Refuse all help. 

[Mrdoomed]

Lets just wait till release. Will be hard for us solo and casual players to get back into a position to test all the new ideas since we will be griding to try and get decent ships and assets built back.

Plus solo and casual players probably will never see a ship better than blue unless its captured and that will only have 1 dura. So we will be in smaller ships and subpar ships then the other testers in large clans with expendable resorces.

Lets just do it once.

[Edward Canaday]

Would have to agree, it's extremely difficult to judge whether or not we have a good economic system when we have stockpiles of high-quality ships, materials and gold from the previous patches.

 

 

Though I agree with the sentiment, I was one of those with VERY little pre-patch.  I had a Frigate and a cutter.  Maybe 20k in gold.  I'm still broke, but mostly because all of my profits go back into crafting materials and ships.  The big difference for me is my ambivalence towards exceptional anything and ships of the line. I'm pretty content with my basic connie for now (I was able to buy it in the shipyard, it was a default-placed ship), and have been steadily capturing other smaller ships to build up resources.  I will say my intent is not Port Battles, at all.  I'm privateering and crafting, almost exclusively.  I'll help build hostility, but only because that involves taking, burning, or otherwise destroying enemy ships.  Those three things give me money and/or resources, which I need to live.  I haven't accepted a single red penny from anyone else.  So yes, port battles will probably be in a lull for the first couple of months (or weeks depending on how many of you nerds don't have jobs or responsibilities), but life is by no means stagnant.

[Wesreidau]

I'm all for a test server. Hell I'd start with 0 XP and a basic cutter on a test server. Lets really shake out what the new players will feel.

[Bach]

The angry backlash at this particular juncture would likely be serious. The forums are full of complaints by solo players trying to adjust to the new Econ. I'm not sure they would survive it. For this reason I think it's a bad idea without MONTHs of prepping up the community for the wipe. The official game start is possibly the only excuse many of the player base would except. So though there IS value in testing the wipe recovery there wouldn't be any value at all if the game population suddenly cut in half skewing all the population driven mechanics.

If there ever was a wipe, all we would need to do is start grabbing traders till we could buy a grey Frigate. Then upgrade to grey Connie and you'll be capturing any NPC ship and gold you want. At the same time you will be gaining materials and even doing delivery missions for gold. I would be surprised if most of the veteran players were not fully back up and at equal status with in two weeks.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Bach

[Jack Jones]

I am glad this is being discussed.

The reason I asked the question initially was because I decided to try and move away from elite ships and mods and try all the grey and green ships and I have found there is quite a difference because I am constantly engaging fully modded gold ships. But I prefer not to have the very best at all times.

My style of play is also solo privateer scouring enemy coastlines. I have taken part in port battles and bigger Co op engagements.

I also watch the discussions on how many gold ships players have and to be fair was a little disturbed at the rise of Britain post patch. (I play Britain at the moment but will change flags soon as the Brits have it to easy in my opinion).

(Cue cries of traitor etc etc. I am ex forces brit and as patriotoc as anyone but I want a challange).

I belive from my own experience that the lastest patch was at best an inconvenience for established players.

Large pops like Britain just moved ports and became very strong very quickly and the other changes meant that we were more protected from reprisals than before.

Smaller nations and pirates seem to be much less effective I'my opinion which I think is bad overall.

To be honest though I am surprised at the amount of people trying to hold onto their pixel assets.

Everyone knew this was an Alpha game, I certainly did. This is a game testing period prior to full release. If we protect the pixel millions and gold ships now so as not to upset existing players how do we know anything works when these same players are immune to the development efforts to produce a balanced and fun game.

Example: the biggest discussion by far post patch was why some gold ships went purple and how battle casualties were excessive for 1st rates stern raked by 5th rates Lol!

Also the points made on high end economy testing are flawed.

You cannot test any kind of 'high' end economy when the game is full of very rich players and clans who are immune to patch changes.

The devs have done an awesome job and this game is the type of game I have always wanted to play and I want it to last and grow for years.

Alpha players should be rewarded with a special paint/ title / flag etc to show all the hard work they have done when the game gets released. Something permanent on their account but gives no game advantage.

My own ego would like this a lot.

However one thing I do know, launch this game without testing all of its mechanics from scratch to protect current players and you risk losing the entire game because new players who struggle to much won't stay and the reviews will kill the game dead, as sure as being in irons.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Blue Tooth

[Wesreidau]

A specific test server could be opened right now, and not bother anyone else until the launch wipe. Then we can see how things like blueprint drop rates and fine wood affect the initial growth of the economy, so that at launch we have a fairly decent ramp-up. My big concern is that with all these economy patches, the launch wipe might mean seventh and sixth rate green ships for months, or lurching from one CRISIS PATCH to another and eroding player confidence like we had at the start of this year.

 

We absolutely must alpha-test how a new economy will roll out, and my recommendation is a new PVP server where everyone starts at 0 XP, 0 gold, basic cutter. This server might need to be wiped itself once or twice as new economy patches come out if the changes are sufficiently radical.

 

This server might need to be wiped itself once or twice as new economy patches come out if the changes are sufficiently radical.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Wesreidau

[IndianaGeoff]

I agree with the OP.

 

I hate myself for Agreeing.

 

But if you do the OP, there should be a killer bonus for those players as a reward.  Certainly keep crafting levels and ranks. 

 

Maybe give them a free port  IE they get a free base at the capital port so they have a 6 port advantage?

Maybe an exceptional ship in each class when they start out?  (IE a rattler, suprise, buc and victory if you have the levels.)

Maybe a free base at the hidden Island?  And make the hidden island have cool stuff and only have free ports but no deliveries.  It then becomes the PVP capital of the world.  Traders want to go there, but you have to sail the goods out.

 

If you take away what we have earned... give us a leg up and something cool.  That will also inspire beta sales to get the good stuff.  Maybe a presale bonus to boot.

[Brogsitter]

Before there should be a wipe of all assets, we have to figure out, what is the best way to limit high quality ships. Wiping everything does not make any sense until there is a working mechanic.

[Æthlstan]

 

 

So any player can chose to experience starting over now.  Switch nations twice, or jump servers, and poof, your at the same place financially as a new player. Refuse all help. 

 

Thats a stupid argument

 

when talking about testing the economy (which I have serious doubts over), you simply cannot do that by creating a new character. The economic system can only be adequately tested if all players start out with nothing. The current situation where there are folks with tens of millions, or as they claim, hundreds of millions, acquired through broken game mechanics half the time, does not provide a conducive testing environment if we wanna seriously test final game design elements.

[KrakkenSmacken]

Thats a stupid argument

 

when talking about testing the economy (which I have serious doubts over), you simply cannot do that by creating a new character. The economic system can only be adequately tested if all players start out with nothing. The current situation where there are folks with tens of millions, or as they claim, hundreds of millions, acquired through broken game mechanics half the time, does not provide a conducive testing environment if we wanna seriously test final game design elements.

I think the opposite is true, that you can not test the system when all players start with nothing.

 

I think that because eventually and quickly, as happens in all MMO games, there are going to be those players with more assets than they know what to do with.  How the economy operates under those conditions is far more important than how it works from zero, as that condition is going to be the "normal" state of the game moving forward.

 

The only reason to test a wipe, is if that wipe is part of the normal operation of the game, as in if the conquest cycle eventually ends in a victory/wipe.

 

In that case it would be critical to see how the system starting from zero behaves.  Otherwise it's a pointless exercise that will only represent at most 2-3 weeks of recovery, then a new normal almost identical to the current state, at the risk of losing a huge number of players who continue now largely because they have invested time as represented by current assets.

 

tldr;  If the economy can't work with surplus assets and currency being held by some players, which will happen eventually, it simply does not work.

[Æthlstan]

Dude. Expense means nothing when you have 100 mil to toss around. With that amount of assets, you treat the economy more like a stock market than anything else. Identify cheap resources. Buy them all up. Wait until prices skyrocket. Sell at high price until it doesnt sell any more. Rince and repeat. Double your assets every week.

 

any new economic system that gets released will never be able to be tested properly unless we start fresh.

 

 

The entire point you're missing is, if the new system is broken, it may be impossible for new players to make it rich. This could be due to either the system itself, or the current tycoons out there with monopolies on every profitable industry. Which would also be something broken.

So you cant test a new economy's upper limit with old economy money, materials, and resources. Some of these mega millionaires have a ridiculous amount of almost every resource and material.

 

You cant test scarcity with that kind of backlog. These mega millionaires would just trickle out their supply in ridiculously priced labor contracts making a killing, using product that they got on the cheap before it became expensive. Thats what we call artificial market manipulation. 

 

 

If people cant become megamillionaires after 3 months of "Beta" post wipe, then maybe there is something wrong with the economy...or maybe it is working correctly. But with 3 months for final game design testing, I think people will have more than enough time to climb to the top with their millions.

 

If you think there is no incentive for them to do that, since there is no long game in 3 months of play, then why is anyone still playing when release is potentially less than 6 months away? an asset wipe is coming then, for sure. 

 

One thing you could do to ensure motivation during those 3 months is to have goals and benchmarks set for the players, with a reward for reaching each benchmark post release. 

 

 

 

The only reason to test a wipe, is if that wipe is part of the normal operation of the game, as in if the conquest cycle eventually ends in a victory/wipe.

 

In that case it would be critical to see how the system starting from zero behaves.  Otherwise it's a pointless exercise that will only represent at most 2-3 weeks of recovery, then a new normal almost identical to the current state, at the risk of losing a huge number of players who continue now largely because they have invested time as represented by current assets.

 

ppfffft 

 

No. we didnt get where we are using the final version of the economy. Our assets come from a wide variety of economic situations. We have been playing since open world, in a lot of cases. Our assets will not recover to the same state in 2-3 weeks, if the dev's final economy looks the way I'm guessing it will. Maybe in 3 months, but even then, it will definitely not be the same. The hundreds of thousands of tons of stockpiled goods the power players have accumulated will not be there. I think its impossible for anyone to get that much production in that short a time span. We will have millionaires, but will we have megamillionaires? Will we still have ships selling for 15 million? I doubt it.

 

 

An asset wipe has always been held over our heads by the devs. Anyone who has willingly invested time in this game should know that. Are they going to quit at release then? Hmm? 

 

Are they going to not play for the 3 months of final testing that has been proposed? I find that more likely. However, perhaps thats where the rewards I suggest come into play. I really like the yacht, and wish that I played early enough to get it. How many people would play to reach a goal (say, earn 5 million gold by beta's end) to receive a similar redeemable? 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Æthlstan

[KrakkenSmacken]

Dude. Expense means nothing when you have 100 mil to toss around. With that amount of assets, you treat the economy more like a stock market than anything else. Identify cheap resources. Buy them all up. Wait until prices skyrocket. Sell at high price until it doesnt sell any more. Rince and repeat. Double your assets every week.

 

No. we didnt get where we are using the final version of the economy. Our assets come from a wide variety of economic situations. We have been playing since open world, in a lot of cases. Our assets will not recover to the same state in 2-3 weeks, if the dev's final economy looks the way I'm guessing it will. Maybe in 3 months, but even then, it will definitely not be the same. The hundreds of thousands of tons of stockpiled goods the power players have accumulated will not be there. I think its impossible for anyone to get that much production in that short a time span. 

 

This is exactly the way the economy will behave in your "3 months" regardless.  How it operates now will be how it operates again.  It does not matter how much is stockpiled, it matters what the true breaks are on the economy, labor hour production, and what you can do with them.  If they have too many assets, (as I have for example), they will continue to sit on them, (as I do). 

 

You know, I may just decide now is the time to give that test a run.  I'll jump solo onto PvP1, and see just how long it takes me to become a multi millionaire without even dealing with players and their surplus.

 

I bet it won't be more than a few days.

 

Oh and ppfffttt all you like, the impact of asset loss on game population is a reality, well known and well understood for years.  If you really care about the game, you would do well to research the matter a bit more before suggesting what I think would cause the game to commit seppuku. 

 

Admin has already discussed this earlier in the thread, so he knows the risk.

 

"The nuclear blast would be extreme if we wiped everything. We will only do them if it becomes absolutely necessary."

 

[Wesreidau]

Its not going to be that hard creating a new character on PvP1 and getting money, since the money has already been made by the millions of play hours already invested. What we're asking is, with no ports, no resources, no assets, no production; putting players at square one, how long until they're sailing exceptional first rates again? Is it prohibitively difficult to get the economy going from bootstraps? Is it too easy? And we can't determine that without a clean server test, be it wiped, or as a lot of us are suggesting, a new server instance.

[Æthlstan]

If theyre changing the economy its pointless to do it now.

Other alphas have survived after asset losses, its no big deal.

And i beg to differ. The people who make 10s of millions are not ones to sit on their stocks. When I was an active trader when I was farming blueprints, stocks ran through my warehouse like water when the price was right. If i wasnt making 0 profit off of crafting, or if I wasnt crafting at all, I would have been able to put my hands in almosy every market within a month after starting from nothing when I first switched to PvP1. If I continued playing that way (only did it to finance blueprints acquisition) I would be one of those players with 10s or 100s of millions. But thats not the point. The new economy is not just a different econ update, the admins say it will be a complete rework. We cant test it adequately with current assets and without seeing it I think its hasty to suggest you could make everything back so quickly

Pvp2 has a very crappy player driven economy and most people make money by AI trading. Try AI trading on here when theres hundreds of other people competing for the same AI trade deals. I found the most lucrative way to make money was to compete with the power players by severely undercutting them but that wass only possible because I played while everyone was sleeping. I used to live in Oceana. So all my cargo runs happened while everyone was asleep and I could move 8k at a time.

Even then I was dealing with power players, there were markets I couldnt possibly compete in, and I was limited to just a few. In fact, the ones I did compete in had power players too, but I made friends with them and they let my contracts sell before undercutting me. Or I wouldnt have been able to compete at all.

This was back in the age of very plentiful AI resources and i dunno if I could pull it off today. With the new economic system promising to be even more dependant on players making their own resources, its even more important that those massive stocks of resources be eliminated so we can see if players can create enough resources to drive the economy

In fact, I'd say starting from 0 is very important when we test the new economy.

Whether or not everyone gets back to where they were quickly or not is pointless, because the whole point of an asset wipe is to test how the economy functions. Is resource production to high? Too low? Is crafting feasible? Is making money reasonable? How fast can people make money? How fast will the economy grow? Are some markets underperforming? Do we see a shortage? An unusual surplus? Does resource production cost too much? Etc.

Perhaps you could not wipe until a week after all final changes to the game are made. That should give you enough time to see how the high end economy works, if you feel its that important. But I think within 3 months its reasonable to expect that players will have reached a level high enough to have adequately tested that anyways.

If we dont start from zero, and stocked assets are making up for market deficiencies, what happens when those stocks run out? Can people produce enough to compete with these guys? Will the economy falter a year after release because these guys stopped playing?

Edited October 28, 2016 by Æthlstan

[lokii]

I understand the OP, but I think people are underestimating the willingness of players to adapt, old and new. As the devs have stated, they are trying to limit Exceptional ships, and they sure have succeeded. maybe increasing the fine wood drop would help single players, and the reduction of some of extra requirements for trim. Because clans will be the only way accumulate enough resources to craft exceptional ships. But maybe exceptional ships are overrated...

I am concerned about another test server, as we just about have critical mass of players now on PvP1 EU. Increasing the number of buildings and Outposts would really help with current economy and reducing the costs of buying them would help. It would really help single players, as they could collect the required resources required.

[KrakkenSmacken]

 

You know, I may just decide now is the time to give that test a run.  I'll jump solo onto PvP1, and see just how long it takes me to become a multi millionaire without even dealing with players and their surplus.

 

I bet it won't be more than a few days.

 

 

 

 

Test run day one.

 

3 hrs from 0, new Character on PvP1, No interaction with any players economy wise.

 

Earned over 300k including 18k from 3 level 1 missions. I am in a Green Surprise purchased from docs.

 

Only had one round trip with the 500 holds, every other thing was done in a basic cutter.

 

I still believe an asset reset would be pointless.

[Wallentinus]

When we are talking about wipe why are we only thinking in all-or-nothing solution

There is simple method

	0,5	0,6	0,7	0,8	0,9
100000000	10000	63096	398107	2511886	15848932
10000000	3162	15849	79433	398107	1995262
1000000	1000	3981	15849	63096	251189
100000	316	1000	3162	10000	31623
10000	100	251	631	1585	3981
1000	32	63	126	251	501
100	10	16	25	40	63

I used a simple power here

The 0,8 seems to good me. 100m gold leads 2,5m gold. From 1000 resource will be reduced to 251.

0,7 is to drastical and 0,9 has no enough effect.

[James Cornelius]

What about having a one time general amnesty of sorts, to let people reroll to a different nation or switch servers and retain their money, ships, and materials?

[Jacob Elston]

There needs to be a test server or an additional patch test client we can download like what EVE Online, World of Tanks/Warships does.

The idea being that there is a service where we can test all of this stuff on which does not affect people's regular gameplay. This service does not have to be online ALL of the time, it can be onlined with the relevant version to test over certain periods of time. If it was to test ships it could be available as a redeemable, or the economy then it would be a start from scratch clean server etc..

[Wesreidau]

New test server.