The Sailing Simulation

[maturin]

1) You are making up a story about a helpless opponent..sorry that's not going to happen.

In Naval Action windward vessel wont be able to shoot because of heel and roll; leeward ship can kite and stay away. In fact that was a NO1 complaint during the NA tournament.

I was referring to a close range engagement. If the leeward ship wanted to kite, it would have to spebd lots of time running away.

And as regards the heeling problem, are there plans to fix it or not? Swivelling yards to de-power sails should result in almost instant heeling decrease.

Realism, gameplay and balance all in harmony.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

And as regards the heeling problem, are there plans to fix it or not? Swivelling yards to de-power sails should result in almost instant heeling decrease.

Realism, gameplay and balance all in harmony.

 

This.  Heeling is an immediate function of the wind's action upon the sails, (and in fact is more dependent on some sails versus others) not a function of speed.

[Leviathan]

Swivelling yards to de-power sails should result in almost instant heeling decrease.

In my experience swiveling does do this very well with the current mechanics.

[maturin]

In my experience swiveling does do this very well with the current mechanics.

It happens ten times too slowly. You have to bleed off multiple knots of speed before there's a serious change. Meanwhile, you've badly delayed your broadside or lost your window for firing.

[Leviathan]

I'll have to try it again but I know several times I have swiveled them to allow me to get a player in range in relatively little time. Again, i'm going from in-game experience. As for actual performance and knowledge of it I defer to you as you're much more knowledgeable than I am about the topic.

[Destraex]

_{are we assuming that wasters are ready to execute your orders to swivel the yards?}

[Cochrane]

Naval Action is the most advanced and realistic age of sail action game in the world. We have implemented many mechanics that NEVER existed before in a sailing game - including box haul, proper naval artillery and ballistics affected by heel and roll. 

 

We know what we want of the product and leeway is not going to be implemented.. Constantly holding your rudder or trim in a certain position to compensate for drift.. is boring as hell. It is a fake feature: leeway is managed by your helmsman and your sailmaster and first lieutenant know how to trim the sails and place the ballast the right way. It brings no depth and no meaningful choice, thus can be safely thrown out.

 

If you cannot recruit a helmsman that can control leeway - we will provide one for you.

But if you are really looking for leeway in your game.. well. sorry. then you should play... hmmm. which game has proper leeway again?

 

End of admiralty message on leeway

 

Mostly agree with this, but it does miss one point about leeway: It's not so much can you compensate for it (manually or otherwise) but how much it affects ships relative to one another. In a chase situation, that comes into play.

 

That said, I think how high a ship can point and how fast she tacks are MUCH more of an issue in this and many other circumstances. I may have missed explanation of this elsewhere, but is this something that will be modeled differently for different ship types?

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

_{are we assuming that wasters are ready to execute your orders to swivel the yards?}

 

In most cases, at least from the standpoint of a Naval ship, there were men dedicated to sail handling during battle, as well as members of the gun crews also designated as such.

[maturin]

Mostly agree with this, but it does miss one point about leeway: It's not so much can you compensate for it (manually or otherwise) but how much it affects ships relative to one another. In a chase situation, that comes into play.

 

That said, I think how high a ship can point and how fast she tacks are MUCH more of an issue in this and many other circumstances. I may have missed explanation of this elsewhere, but is this something that will be modeled differently for different ship types?

Right, but in a chase situation, leeway will function more or less as a constant. One ship will simply have an advantage in pointing higher. That sort of thing can be baked into any ship's stats without the added complication of modeling bow heading vs true heading.

 

And yes, naturally different ship types will be able to pinch up closer to the wind, with different behavior in stays. That part of the game should shape up very well. The square sails in the game start luffing (not animated, unfortunately) and come aback based on wind angle. Apparent wind isn't modeled, meaning that the sails come aback based on the fairer real wind and can point higher than real vessels. But its an acceptable compromise for simplicity and playability.

[AKPyrate]

Regarding the heeling that was brought up and neutralizing canvas in order to diminish it, does the heel get put back on if the sails are backed?  Hove to, with the main stack backed, the ship would still heel quite a bit (maybe a little less, but negligible).  However, if all yards are brought parallel to the wind direction, then most heel, but not all, should be eliminated.  Of course, the waves would have a greater affect if the sails were luffing or furled, and likely the boat would slowly turn beam to the swell (in most cases), but that's probably a detail that really just doesn't matter for the scope of this game.

[Hyperion74]

All this talk of heeling, backing sails, lee, ect. is getting me overly excited. This game/sim is going to have a big learning curve which makes all feel all funny inside. I'd use a phrase that is more colorful, but I don't know if the moderators would allow it.  We're going to need a "free flight" option just so we can learn to sail out ships. I have Sailing Sim, which has really bad graphics and only fore and aft rigged boats. I have been wanting something this ever since I watched my first Hornblower film on A&E so many years ago. Chant with me lads...WE WANNA SAIL...WE WANNA SAIL

[Leviathan]

Regarding the heeling that was brought up and neutralizing canvas in order to diminish it, does the heel get put back on if the sails are backed?  Hove to, with the main stack backed, the ship would still heel quite a bit (maybe a little less, but negligible).  However, if all yards are brought parallel to the wind direction, then most heel, but not all, should be eliminated.

Yes it does. You can neutralize the sails as you said and the ship will level out basically. If you rotate them it will then begin to heel again.

[maturin]

Regarding the heeling that was brought up and neutralizing canvas in order to diminish it, does the heel get put back on if the sails are backed?

Naturally. Of course, when hove-to you rarely back a sail more than a few degrees. You want the backing forces to be small: providing balance but not serious negative thrust. A sail set at a highly oblique angle, whether backing or drawing, will have little power in any regard.

Historically, the mainsail was never intentionally backed because of the risks involved.

It's just because of those darn always-on staysails that heaving-to doesn't work well in NA. You can set up the square sails for the maneuver, but the staysails keep drawing and ruin the effort, removing control from the player. If I were a dev, I would code the staysails to lose 85% of their power as soon as one or more square sails is backed. This would simulate the crew letting go of the sheets.

Hove to, with the main stack backed, the ship would still heel quite a bit (maybe a little less, but negligible).

Yeah. That's why you heave to with only topsails set, generally. In any moderate weather, reducing canvas will bring the deck almost level again. The crew would trim sails to choose the proportion of heel and roll, given the situation.

However, if all yards are brought parallel to the wind direction, then most heel, but not all, should be eliminated. Of course, the waves would have a greater affect if the sails were luffing or furled, and likely the boat would slowly turn beam to the swell (in most cases), but that's probably a detail that really just doesn't matter for the scope of this game.

Yeah, probably out of scope. And in battle you would rarely choose to lose way entirely; the lack of control leaves you vulnerable. Just shivering a few of your yards (swivelling them not quite parallel) will briefly ruin their performance and bring heel to a manageable level.

If you find your bow drifting in any particular direction, you can often remedy that by sheeting in the jib to fall off, or the gaff to come up,

[AKPyrate]

My question about heeling when the yards were backed wasn't about real life forces (I've sailed enough square riggers to know how they actually work), but was wondering if it was incorporated in the game.  Thanks for the replies.

 

As for backing the squares, they were not backed intentionally unless maneuvering, such as heaving to or tacking (both of which were done often, especially for naval vessels-less so for merchants).  They were backed more than just a few degrees, as it was necessary to counteract the driving forces of the fore and main for heaving to (although, in certain circumstances, the fore sails might be backed instead of the main sails).  It's a lot easier to rotate yards for a while, say while letting another ship pass in front of you or lowering a boat, than to take in a majority of sail and reset them.  It would be nice if the stays'ls could be depowered in the game, especially if they're overpowering the squares for this type of maneuver.  Additionally, staysail control would be nice (primarily the headsails) for quicker maneuvering by backing them or letting them fly.

[Edward Harvey]

I might not add very much to the discussion by saying this, but i'd give my left pinky for a Silent-Hunter 3-esque simulator style game in the age of sail. 

[maturin]

 

My question about heeling when the yards were backed wasn't about real life forces (I've sailed enough square riggers to know how they actually work), but was wondering if it was incorporated in the game.

Gotcha. I will have to test this again myself, but my suspicion is no. So far as I can tell, ships only heel in this game if they are moving fast. Admin tells me that heel is not related to speed, but has not explained what it IS determined by,.

 

 

 

  It would be nice if the stays'ls could be depowered in the game, especially if they're overpowering the squares for this type of maneuver.

That's exactly what happens. If you heave-to foresail to the mast in this game, the staysails keep drawing and result in 1-2 knots of headway. You have to back all your square sails to counteract them, usually.

 

 

Anyways, if you have experience with square riggers, maybe you could help me with something I've been wondering about.

What determines the difficulty of bracing a yard in or out? In what situations is this easy work, letting the wind blow the yard where you want it? In which cases is it difficult, a hard pull against the wind?

Am I correct that a close-hauled yard will want to fly fore-and-aft if you let go of a brace?

[BrutishVulgarian]

My signature is a plea for wind shadow, a small primitive triangle or rectangle of dead air at a 90 degree angle to the leeward of the sails.

I can live without leeway or old time square riggers that can barely point into the wind, though. I think adjusting the speed that certain types of ships (Cutter) can run on a close reach would be enough for me.

[Destraex]

Brutish did POTBS have this feature, wind shadow?

[Mirones]

no

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

My signature is a plea for wind shadow, a small primitive triangle or rectangle of dead air at a 90 degree angle to the leeward of the sails.

I can live without leeway or old time square riggers that can barely point into the wind, though. I think adjusting the speed that certain types of ships (Cutter) can run on a close reach would be enough for me.

 

If you're going to sail an older square rigger, you're going to have to get used to the idea that it flat out can't point as high as a sloop.  There should be a level of historical difficulty in tacking in a square rigger (missing stays if there is not enough speed to maintain steerage and get the bow far enough over) as compared to a sloop, schooner, cutter, or what have you.  

 

I do not like the idea that ships that had no real ability to point high into the wind would be able to do so and maintain steerage-way in the game.  That takes a large chunk out of what little advantages the fore-aft rigged ships have when they encounter a larger, heavier ship, and also removes the advantages those ships have in conveying goods or whatnot to a destination that is upwind.  It also removes some of the necessary skill required to get into and out of certain places when the wind lays just so, the need to get enough distance windward to ensure you have the room to get around an obstacle, etc.  If you can just point right up into the wind like a fore and aft rigger (even if slower), then what's the point of even sailing the smaller vessels?

[AKPyrate]

One benefit to the square riggers, is that they generally sail flatter than fore and aft rigged boats.  Thus, cannons stay more level and aiming is easier.  A close hauled schooner in moderate wind with a press of sail would barely be able to shoot downwind and would only be able to lob shot to windward.

[maturin]

A square rigger in that situation would be heeling considerably as well. The difference is that your swiss army knife array of sails provides almost limitless ways of reducing the forces that cause you to heel.

[BrutishVulgarian]

If you're going to sail an older square rigger, you're going to have to get used to the idea that it flat out can't point as high as a sloop.  There should be a level of historical difficulty in tacking in a square rigger (missing stays if there is not enough speed to maintain steerage and get the bow far enough over) as compared to a sloop, schooner, cutter, or what have you.  

 

I do not like the idea that ships that had no real ability to point high into the wind would be able to do so and maintain steerage-way in the game.  That takes a large chunk out of what little advantages the fore-aft rigged ships have when they encounter a larger, heavier ship, and also removes the advantages those ships have in conveying goods or whatnot to a destination that is upwind.  It also removes some of the necessary skill required to get into and out of certain places when the wind lays just so, the need to get enough distance windward to ensure you have the room to get around an obstacle, etc.  If you can just point right up into the wind like a fore and aft rigger (even if slower), then what's the point of even sailing the smaller vessels?

I like what you say, especially missing stays, right now, the Cutter seems pointless, but I'm sure that will change.  We just just need to keep pointing out what fore and aft rigged craft do best, the devs do listen.

 

I'm just not sure most folks, including me, have the patience for real old time square riggers, tacking into the wind, to engage the enemy.  

and that's only in moderate wind, i believe they moved backward in strong winds.

 

Edit:   I guess I should point out that the AI sailing square riggers gets caught in stays, all the time.  The AI sailing fore and aft craft, never get caught in stays.  I assume newbs who have no understanding of basic sailing concepts will also get caught in stays.   Players will need to know what to do when they start making sternway in a big square rigger.

[maturin]

Have you actually seen any new players get stuck yet?

Tacking is accomplished by building up speed and then pressing A twice; let's remember that.

So far as I can tell, the game's square riggers have 3 advantages over real ones.

1) No leeway, which is worth 5-10 degrees of windward progress

2) No apparent wind, which means the sails keep drawing for an extra 10-15 degrees

3) Independent of the first two factors, you can make headway with staysails and spanker alone, with all your square sails backing. IRL the backed canvas would overwhelm the staysails, and even if not, you would make massive leeway (15 degrees or more).

I would propose resolving the 3rd issue to give light fore-and-aft vessels a proper role. Actually, my existing proposal about staysails would solve this problem as an added bonus.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I like what you say, especially missing stays, right now, the Cutter seems pointless, but I'm sure that will change.  We just just need to keep pointing out what fore and aft rigged craft do best, the devs do listen.

 

I'm just not sure most folks, including me, have the patience for real old time square riggers, tacking into the wind, to engage the enemy.  

and that's only in moderate wind, i believe they moved backward in strong winds.

 

Edit:   I guess I should point out that the AI sailing square riggers gets caught in stays, all the time.  The AI sailing fore and aft craft, never get caught in stays.  I assume newbs who have no understanding of basic sailing concepts will also get caught in stays.   Players will need to know what to do when they start making sternway in a big square rigger.

I think you meant to say "caught in irons". . When you miss stays, you're "in irons" until you can encourage the bow to fall back off far enough to resume your original tack close hauled.