The Sailing Simulation

[Babbington]

Hi,

 

I was wondering about the simulation:

 

Is lee-way modelled at all; and will I be worrying about that lee-shore? If I'm running in a gale, will I need to reduce sail, will my spars be at risk, and is there a chance of broaching if I have a scrap on the mizzen? I guess I'm asking for any feedback about the simulation. Anything is welcome. 

 

Thanks and regards

[maturin]

It's not a sailing simulator and won't be unless we get mods and private servers. There's no leeway, which in my mind is only really relevant to gameplay at low speeds and when hove-to.

We have bad weather that affects gunnery, but there is not yet any effect on the sailing. Myself and a lot of other people will be very upset if this doesn't get added and everyone's carrying royals in a gale.

Rig balance and yard control are the most simulator-like features that set the game apart from all others like it. However, the latter isn't as influential as it could be. The main and mizzen yards are controlled together, and to my dismay the devs show no intention of allowing us to set individual sails, even as a cosmetic feature.

[AKPyrate]

There's been talk in other topics about carrying too much sail for the weather conditions causing damage to the rig, so that will prevent players generally from setting royals in a gale.  I'd like to see also a decrease in speed if too much sail is carried in heavy weather, but have no idea if that's being looked at.  Like Maturin said, this isn't a sailing simulation, and many details like leeway aren't high priority.

[Babbington]

Thank you both for the answers; they leave me a bit confused to be honest.

 

I read, in another thread, this from Admin:

 

"The systems, render technology and combat mechanics we are currently finishing will allow 3 products to be developed.

 

1. Hardcore single player ship simulator - with sail and yard trimming, individual sail control and deep crew management. 

2. Session based fleet action a-la world of tanks or war thunder - we call it Faction Warfare or National fleet duty

3. Open world RPG with conquest, crafting, trading and pirates

 

2 and 3 can easily co-exist in one game and reinforce each other. "

 

 

So number 1 suggests more to me. I had kind of assumed that any combat sim would necessarily include, at least, what I was asking about in my OP. To me the most significant factor in this kind of combat is manoeuvring anyway; how is one to differentiate oneself if not by the handling of the ship? If you choose to run from an engagement, it seems clear that you would need to be able to out-sail other vessels. I wanted to be able to sail closer to the wind, due to my trimming skill, and buy a ship with less leeway than my opponents so I could shave whatever headland to escape. 

 

I based another post on my assumption - hardly an assumption when it was stated though right - of this 'hardcore ship simulation,' but if you can't 'sail,' but rather just 'point' your ship...

 

OK, I don't want to be the big whiner here; we shall see what we shall see.

[maturin]

I guess the nuance here is in ship vs sailing simulator. I've never seen the game referred to officially as a sim outside that preliminary marketing language. You also have to consider the game in the context of the market, which has never produced anything remotely realistic.

Individual sail control is something we definitely don't have yet, though I hope that you, Babington, will join us in pushing for it.

It is indeed correct to say that we merely point the game's ships. We are not the helmsman.

Boiled down to basics, the sailing has one advanced control feature: yard control. By understanding how to use rig balance and backing forces to aid maneuvers, a player can gain a slight advantage in turn rate or a large advantage in stays. That is the main thing distinguishing the game from its predecessors in terms of control and player input.

If the devs were to add individual sail control and wind strength/direction management techniques on top of that, I would be happy. It would already be an unprecedented achievement.

[Flip]

Play this http://www.sailsimulator.com/

 

And then come here for the hawt pvp action.

[maturin]

I can sail boring yachts in real life with twice the framerate.

[Subutai]

Will we have studdingsails, I wonder? That could be carried away?

[OTMatt]

Will we have studdingsails, I wonder? That could be carried away?

 

Someone said the Admin thinks studding sails make them look fat? I wonder if they were used commonly on ships.

 

Also I would love to see more sail control features as well. I just hope it doesn't create frustration in the middle of the battle since a lot of players just want to play a battle rather than focus 90% of their time adjusting sails.

[Babbington]

Maturin,

 

Yeah, 'ship Vs sailing simulator,' and 'ship' was what was used, I see what you mean. We're not helmsmen; yeah, again I see what you mean. The yard control you mention is nice, but I guess people will pick up on this quickly, and we'll (I'll) have to wait and see if the 'simulation' has enough to it to enable me to differentiate myself through its mastery. I'll try to be as active as I can and be of some use, to dev as well as players, in asking for player control rather than command; hardcore mode maybe. What you said earlier about mods and servers is interesting.

 

OTMatt,

 

This is the thing though: there's no way I'm going to be on my own here in believing that simply pointing, aiming, ranging and shooting the big guns is all there is to a sea battle. I know you are still going to need the spatial awareness to command your ship where it needs to be, but I would like to play a game where being able to sail it there, rather than simply command it there, was a requirement too. I also take your point about many players not wanting this; it seems to me that the folks currently in this community are going to be far more into the sailing than the final user base might be; perhaps Game Labs' idea of a target audience is more sensible than mine. That said though, this isn't only about combat: open world, exploration, and discovery have all been mentioned; it seems to me that people are going to want more than than an Assassins Creed level of simulation here.

 

I too think Studding sails make a ship look fat, they also make them look damn intimidating, like a bird of prey preparing for the kill.

[Subutai]

I didn't mean as a permanent part of a model, I meant, "can you set studdingsails?" And yes they were common, at least in light winds. They could be crucial in certain chase situations. 

[Edward Harvey]

It's a shame though, simulators are becoming more accepted and people are slowly realising how fun realism can be. Look at Dayz, it's not a hardcore simulator but it still features realistic bulletdrop, accurate and slow weapon reloading, semi-realistic movement speed. A lot of people who play Dayz now also play Arma 2 & 3. Look at Warthunder, it's far from a simulator but the hardest difficulty setting does allow for a lot of plane trimming and a lot of  people play it on those settings.

Off course, most people who'll play NA would like to immediatly get going and shoot stuff, and that's okay. But I do so eagerly hope for a sim-mode, or sim servers. Not only that, in the case of Warthunder. I know some guys who actually started out in the easier difficulty settings, got bored after 50 hours or so, and now play on the hardest settings. Difficulty adds longevity to the gameplay, or something like that. What if you also reward players who'll play on harder difficulty? More renown or something of that manner?

Just a humble opinion,

 

Coen

[akd]

Well, when confronted with difficulty, a lot of people will still throw a fit immediately.  They make a bunch of noise and games get dumbed down, then these same people are the first to leave and move on to the next shiny thing.  Meanwhile you've lost a good chunk of the "niche" players seeking depth and challenge. It's a vicious cycle.   (Also just an opinion.)

[maturin]

Yeah, 'ship Vs sailing simulator,' and 'ship' was what was used, I see what you mean. We're not helmsmen; yeah, again I see what you mean. The yard control you mention is nice, but I guess people will pick up on this quickly, and we'll (I'll) have to wait and see if the 'simulation' has enough to it to enable me to differentiate myself through its mastery. I'll try to be as active as I can and be of some use, to dev as well as players, in asking for player control rather than command; hardcore mode maybe. What you said earlier about mods and servers is interesting.

 

I think that when it comes to sailing in a straight line or making very basic maneuvers, even a full-on tallship simulator would be hard-pressed to make player skill win out. After you learn the system, most competent players are about equal. That's the way it is with yard control.

 

But if you want to demonstrate your mastery of maneuver, have no doubt that Naval Action is the game for you. All the theoretical knowledge falls away in battle, where the element of uncertainty and imprecision demands skill and cunning, even if the underlying sailing system is simple.

 

RE, private servers and mods, I should clarify that that is my pipe dream.

 

 

Anyhoo, about studdingsails. Maybe they do make a ship look like a pregnant elephant, but they mostly only do that in paintings. Because a ship would only set ALL its stuns'ls in a near-calm, when headed directly downwind. 80% of the time, you're just going to have the weather foretopmast stuns'l set, maybe combined with a lee maintopmast stuns'l. And then beyond that there are dozens of combinations that only work in certain conditions and headings. Stuns'ls are never going to happen unless we get individual sail setting, because they demand it with their complexity.

[Babbington]

I don't doubt I'm in the right place with this game, Maturin. I discovered that old sim' poll thread, and was pleased to see how voting went and everyone's comments. I think it's all good, but don't think I can comment a lot more until I get to play about with the first offering I might see. The lack of leeway still makes me raise an eyebrow.

 

It's going to be nice to play about in the Caribbean at Christmas, whilst the English weather scowls at me through the window. I'm down here on the south coast of England btw, opposite the Isle of Wight (my town is actually named after a lee shore!); I'll be looking forward to see how Game Labs deal with this part of the world.

[Leviathan]

The current system provides enough hands-on elements to keep you entertained especially in the heat of battle. Though the current elements may be simple, when you add them all together (aiming, maneuvering, sail control, waves, crew focus etc) it makes for a good balance of game-play. Keep in mind you are more than just the captain giving orders, you are controlling everything. Now once we reach the open world and need to traverse large areas of ocean I could see some additional options being implemented to make it more hands on, but we'll see how the devs handle that when it comes. So far they are doing a good job, in my opinion at least.

[maturin]

Clawing off a lee shore is a very specialized and rarefied form of gameplay, and damnedly hard to capture in a digital medium. Sure, it makes for great situational drama, but it's a kind of drama that relies on a whole confluence of factors more easily drawn together by a storyteller than a game server.

 

And leeway isn't the crucial element. Even with leeway, any decent vessel could make some windward progress. Since no player will choose to sail a worthless ship, that means that a digital lee shore is only of consequence when a player finds himself embayed. And even then, the leeway that matters is the leeway of drifting when hove-to. To really create lee shore gameplay you need highly developed storm gameplay, with worsening conditions that prevent easy tacking, and subtle consequences for pinching up against the wind and pitching into head seas. It's all really hard to model and harder to balance, since a player doesn't care about wild or uncomfortable pitching movements until the moment his ship actually cracks in half. Digital reality has no room for subtlety and half-measures.

[OTMatt]

Well, when confronted with difficulty, a lot of people will still throw a fit immediately. They make a bunch of noise and games get dumbed down, then these same people are the first to leave and move on to the next shiny thing. Meanwhile you've lost a good chunk of the "niche" players seeking depth and challenge. It's a vicious cycle. (Also just an opinion.)

Opinions are opinions. I know of two ww2 simulators that refused to get dumbed down until they lost 50% of their playerbade every month. Now one is dead and the other is barely surving by going f2p.

For all we know that sail simulator casual players had in mind was of adventure, not a game of which sail you think you need to manage while some pro ganking team pounds away at your hull all day. I mean I enjoy realism but you can bet the real customers who will encounter this game will surely want to play it for naval action and not naval maintenance. War thunder was smart, their game might be realistic but they divided the complexity into 3 different game modes. You certainly never see Il2 at the same level or aces high. The game doesnt need to be a simulator to be challenging and fun imo.

[admin]

The lack of leeway still makes me raise an eyebrow.

 

 

 

Naval Action is the most advanced and realistic age of sail action game in the world. We have implemented many mechanics that NEVER existed before in a sailing game - including box haul, proper naval artillery and ballistics affected by heel and roll. 

 

We know what we want of the product and leeway is not going to be implemented.. Constantly holding your rudder or trim in a certain position to compensate for drift.. is boring as hell. It is a fake feature: leeway is managed by your helmsman and your sailmaster and first lieutenant know how to trim the sails and place the ballast the right way. It brings no depth and no meaningful choice, thus can be safely thrown out.

 

If you cannot recruit a helmsman that can control leeway - we will provide one for you.

But if you are really looking for leeway in your game.. well. sorry. then you should play... hmmm. which game has proper leeway again?

 

End of admiralty message on leeway

[Babbington]

Fair enough, Admin. 

[maturin]

The game doesn't need to model leeway when under way, but ships that are stopped or going slowly should definitely drift with the wind. If you try to sail upwind with only a few sails set, your lack of speed will result in you not making any windward progress at all. That's where leeway actually matters (again, I'm fine ignoring it for vessels traveling at speed).

This is a balance issue to. Currently the windward player can simply stop his ship and remain in place, pounding away at his helpless opponent. In reality, he should be drifting downwind slowly.

Also, since when is boxhauling possible? I'll have to try it, but I doubt it works since the game forces us to carry staysails, like havinv one foot on the gas and one on the brake.

[akd]

Opinions are opinions. I know of two ww2 simulators that refused to get dumbed down until they lost 50% of their playerbade every month. Now one is dead and the other is barely surving by going f2p.

For all we know that sail simulator casual players had in mind was of adventure, not a game of which sail you think you need to manage while some pro ganking team pounds away at your hull all day. I mean I enjoy realism but you can bet the real customers who will encounter this game will surely want to play it for naval action and not naval maintenance. War thunder was smart, their game might be realistic but they divided the complexity into 3 different game modes. You certainly never see Il2 at the same level or aces high. The game doesnt need to be a simulator to be challenging and fun imo.

 

Depth and challenge /= realism!  I guarantee there will be people who want pressing A and D to always quickly turn the ship the direction they want go and holding down W makes them go fastestest, now, now, now.  That game will be fun for a few days/weeks.  I prefer a game that lets you get by with simple control inputs, but rewards greater forethought in maneuvering and more nuanced control.  Those options never need be mandatory, but they should be rewarded with advantages.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Depth and challenge /= realism!  I guarantee there will be people who want pressing A and D to always quickly turn the ship the direction they want go and holding down W makes them go fastestest, now, now, now.  That game will be fun for a few days/weeks.  I prefer a game that lets you get by with simple control inputs, but rewards greater forethought in maneuvering and more nuanced control.  Those options never need be mandatory, but they should be rewarded with advantages.

 

I'd like to see that as well.  From what I've read, they have an auto-master feature that trims sails for you if you don't want to be arsed with it, but agreed - if you take the time to learn to manage it yourself, there should be a noticeable advantage in a self-mastered ship.

[OTMatt]

Depth and challenge /= realism!  I guarantee there will be people who want pressing A and D to always quickly turn the ship the direction they want go and holding down W makes them go fastestest, now, now, now.  That game will be fun for a few days/weeks.

 

Again thats just your opinion, I have had my fair share of realism and arcade games alike and somethings just dont seem as fun when theyre realistic. Though I have to agree an optional ability to adjust your sails would be neat to have for those captains looking to gain an edge. Navyfield did the job perfectly with automated controls for smaller ships and eventually turning each player into a pro later on down the ship tree with manual gunnery.

 

Maybe when I get a better handling of the controls a few weeks into the game I would explore the advantages of sail adjustment but I just want to enjoy the battles wthout playing as 15 different sailors combined into one.

[admin]

1)This is a balance issue to. Currently the windward player can simply stop his ship and remain in place, pounding away at his helpless opponent. In reality, he should be drifting downwind slowly.

2) Also, since when is boxhauling possible? I'll have to try it, but I doubt it works since the game forces us to carry staysails, like havinv one foot on the gas and one on the brake.

 

1) You are making up a story about a helpless opponent..sorry that's not going to happen. 

Currently in Naval Action a windward vessel wont be able to shoot because of heel and roll; leeward ship can kite and stay away. In fact that was a NO1 complaint during the NA tournament. To be able to shoot at 1 km windward boat has to depower sails or stop. That allows leeward boat to get 2 broadsides outside of windward ship range. (because of wind pressure raising guns platform up)

 

2) box hauling maneuver is possible .. depending on the patch you could be more (or less) successful with it (with stronger backing force parameters in the build).