Better way to deal with possible multis/exploiting alts

[Castello Haufniensis]

I think the developers should take possible exploits of possible multiaccounting players more serious than right now. I just asked a question about a possible multiaccount in the tribunal:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13718-ilay-gb-multi-or-newb/


 

I am sure that OlavDeng is just answering according to the directions of the developers. But if this is the way cases are handled the game has a problem.
 

The reason why I am asking the tribunal to take a look at a case is because I want someone to look into the history of an account and see if a suspicion is founded or unfounded, not to have a FORUM MODERATOR decide if my screenshot constitute a conclusive evidence against a player. It is clear from my post that what I am raising is a suspicion, not providing final evidence. Final evidence is not accessible to me in this case and if you can provide an example of what constitutes irrefutilble evidence for exploiting multi-accounting I will be happy to learn. 

*
If this game has no way of dealing with toxic multi-accounting players it is a disaster, because cheating will eventually become an integrated part of the gameplay  (I am not talking about players who has alts to hold stuff and help crafting.....that is perhaps a stretch of the spirit of the game, but it is at least not destructive and I guess the developers are happy with the extra income?)

If cases are handled as in the above case, nothing pervent me and 5 guys from my alliance to start alternative accounts and join the port combat of our competitors nation. We just need to delete our player and create a new (and get a new ship in a freetown) each time we have performed our little stunt. 5 spots taken in a full PB by cerbs instead of 1st rates is a serious game changer, it is a winning tactic, is it cheating? Is there anyway to deal with it? Not right now it seems.

[Galileus]

Do you expect them to send a police squad to read this guy's personal e-mails?

 

No, seriously, WHAT actions do you expect? Because a guy, once, joined the wrong battle - you want him investigated?

 

Because if anyone were to follow your advice - I would call that a toxic community.

 

Chill out. You're blowing the case WAY out of proportions.

[LeBoiteux]

I may be mistaken but I think that 3 kinds of PB are expected soon to be implemented for each "type" of ships (6th-Rates, frigates, Sol).

If so, your issue will be solved.

[Anolytic]

The Tribunal has specific rules to prevent it from devolving into a mess of unfounded accusations. It was like that before, and it was not pretty or healthy to the community. The incident was F11-reported during the battle, and the developers can choose to investigate from there or more likely wait for possibly further incidents to substantiate the accusations. Stuff like this happens and we all have to just move on. Also, as LeBoiteux said. 

 

It is just as likely that this was a noob as that it was a deliberate attempt at griefing. This is what happens when we allow a front line to be established so close to our capital. Noobs don't travel far from the capital, but Aves is not a long journey. There was a battle right next to the PB at the time as well, so he might have just misclicked. 

The uniquely unfortunate strategic position Denmark has of having a freeport (Vieques) so incredibly close to our capital has had the unexpected upside of our noobs growing up fast under the pressure from all the british, pirates, swedes and others with ganking outposts there. That doesn't mean we won't have incidents like this with our noobs still. He probably won't do it again. If he does, then we have better evidence.

[Castello Haufniensis]

Do you expect them to send a police squad to read this guy's personal e-mails?

 

No, seriously, WHAT actions do you expect? Because a guy, once, joined the wrong battle - you want him investigated?

 

Because if anyone were to follow your advice - I would call that a toxic community.

 

Chill out. You're blowing the case WAY out of proportions.

 

There is no way to tell if it is one guy once (because you can just change the name of your alt). Your exaggerated metaphor is not what I am asking for. A simple history check or ip check if it is possible would not be hard to make. I have seen games destroyed my multiaccounting. This is not about this one case. It is about a general problem that could destroy the game, especially if PBs are going to have more impact as it has been advertised.

 

I may be mistaken but I think that 3 kinds of PB are expected soon to be implemented for each "type" of ships (6th-Rates, frigates, Sol).

If so, your issue will be solved.

You are not mistaken. But it has nothing to do with the problem. No matter what rate the ships are of you can destroy the enemy by joining them and surrendering (and it is getting a little nastier if you are actually able to join the PBs of your allies (BC your alt will be able to join the PBs of multiple nations)

[Castello Haufniensis]

The Tribunal has specific rules to prevent it from devolving into a mess of unfounded accusations. It was like that before, and it was not pretty or healthy to the community. The incident was F11-reported during the battle, and the developers can choose to investigate from there or more likely wait for possibly further incidents to substantiate the accusations. Stuff like this happens and we all have to just move on. Also, as LeBoiteux said. 

 

It is just as likely that this was a noob as that it was a deliberate attempt at griefing. This is what happens when we allow a front line to be established so close to our capital. Noobs don't travel far from the capital, but Aves is not a long journey. There was a battle right next to the PB at the time as well, so he might have just misclicked. 

The uniquely unfortunate strategic position Denmark has of having a freeport (Vieques) so incredibly close to our capital has had the unexpected upside of our noobs growing up fast under the pressure from all the british, pirates, swedes and others with ganking outposts there. That doesn't mean we won't have incidents like this with our noobs still. He probably won't do it again. If he does, then we have better evidence.

This is not about the incident. It is about the general problem.

[Galileus]

There is no way to tell if it is one guy once (because you can just change the name of your alt). Your exaggerated metaphor is not what I am asking for. A simple history check or ip check if it is possible would not be hard to make. I have seen games destroyed my multiaccounting. This is not about this one case. It is about a general problem that could destroy the game, especially if PBs are going to have more impact as it has been advertised.

 

Simple IP check is not going to cut it. IP is computer bound, not user bound.

 

My exaggeration is - unfortunately - not an exaggeration. It's not a metaphor either. You want to ID someone over the internet, you need to get a permit.

[LeBoiteux]

You are not mistaken. But it has nothing to do with the problem. No matter what rate the ships are of you can destroy the enemy by joining them and surrendering (and it is getting a little nastier if you are actually able to join the PBs of your allies (BC your alt will be able to join the PBs of multiple nations)

 

You'll never know for sure why somebody surrenders. So many things might happen IRL...

[OlavDeng2]

There are multiple problems with us having to go deep in investigation

 

1. Would take too much of developers time so development of the game itself would be very slow

 

2. There could be multiple people using the computer

 

3. they could be using a VPN with shared IP.

 

There is no easy way to tell if it was someone being a douche or not without wasting a lot of time and resources, especially if it is just a hunch, that is why in the tribunal we ask for as much proof as possible.

[Castello Haufniensis]

There are multiple problems with us having to go deep in investigation

 

1. Would take too much of developers time so development of the game itself would be very slow

 

2. There could be multiple people using the computer

 

3. they could be using a VPN with shared IP.

 

There is no easy way to tell if it was someone being a douche or not without wasting a lot of time and resources, especially if it is just a hunch, that is why in the tribunal we ask for as much proof as possible.

I respect that. But a lot of the tribunal cases I have seen so far has been like this:

1. A player provides a screenshot stating that "something happened"

2. A moderator dismisses the case because the screenshot does not prove beyond any doubt that "something happened intentionally"

Since "2" calls for a investigation into the subjective intention of the player that made "something happen" any case can be dismissed on the grounds of lacking evidence.

 

If that is the case the tribunal is really just a thing that gives a false sense of justice and there is a deep problem if the devs. have no easy way to check if someone are cheating.

Sorry for not being naive.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Castello Haufniensis

[OlavDeng2]

Im sorry, but tell me excactly how to make an easy way to detect someone with two accounts actually cheating. Tribunal can lead to cases where appropriate punishments are handed out, but if there is no proof we could either spend hours trying to figure out the truth, which might be impossible or it might be a false lead or we can close it because there is no absolute proof, since we are not a police department and we dont have the resources, closing it is probably the appropriate action, if there is enough proof however action will be taken.

[admin]

 

I respect that. But a lot of the tribunal cases I have seen so far has been like this:

 

1. A player provides a screenshot stating that "something happened"

2. A moderator dismisses the case because the screenshot does not prove beyond any doubt that "something happened intentionally"

 

Since "2" calls for a investigation into the subjective intention of the player that made "something happen" any case can be dismissed on the grounds of lacking evidence.

If that is the case the tribunal is really just a thing that gives a false sense of justice and there is a deep problem if the devs. have no easy way to check if someone are cheating.

 

Sorry for not being naive.

 

Sabotage is not Cheating

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty

Joining the battle in a Cerberus is not against the rules

 

Tribunal is used for many reasons including clarifications

false cases will always happen and will be closed.

 

 

 

 

 

The reason why I am asking the tribunal to take a look at a case is because I want someone to look into the history of an account and see if a suspicion is founded or unfounded, not to have a FORUM MODERATOR decide if my screenshot constitute a conclusive evidence against a player. It is clear from my post that what I am raising is a suspicion, not providing final evidence.

 

Raising suspicion is not enough, but perhaps you can shadow this character for 7 days and provide this evidence. I want you take a look at this character and sail with (follow) him for 1 week non stop. This will help you gather the evidence. 

 

Maybe we can open a detective agency - Pinkerton something...

If you cannot do it i can ask one of our volunteers do it for you - it will cost you $500 dollars and we will try to gather evidence by spending time on this character for a week shadowing him, just because you are raising this suspicion. You can pay by paypal

[Castello Haufniensis]

Im sorry, but tell me excactly how to make an easy way to detect someone with two accounts actually cheating. Tribunal can lead to cases where appropriate punishments are handed out, but if there is no proof we could either spend hours trying to figure out the truth, which might be impossible or it might be a false lead or we can close it because there is no absolute proof, since we are not a police department and we dont have the resources, closing it is probably the appropriate action, if there is enough proof however action will be taken.

Yes. 

But it is a question what is considered a proof that can lead to further investigation. Apparently a screenshot of "something happened" is not considered cause for a further investigation. Since a screenshot does not give an image of the intentions of the players I suggest, with all respect, that the moderators are not given the hard task of deciding this on their own, because if the corpus delicti can not be given via a screenshot, then the moderators quite frankly have no business playing judges. If however the ones given the task of judging in these cases have access to something besides the screenshot or can pass suspicious cases on to someone who has. It is just a matter of what the game logs:

A tool that cross references the names of the players trading partners with players on "the other side of the battle"

A log of how many times the user have changed names of the character.

And an ip log.

Might at least make it harder to cheat. But may also give us some sense that exploits are being punished.

[Castello Haufniensis]

Sabotage is not Cheating

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty

Joining the battle in a Cerberus is not against the rules

 

Tribunal is used for many reasons including clarifications

false cases will always happen and will be closed.

 

 

 

Raising suspicion is not enough, but perhaps you can shadow this character for 7 days and provide this evidence. I want you take a look at this character and sail with (follow) him for 1 week non stop. This will help you gather the evidence. 

 

Maybe we can open a detective agency - Pinkerton something...

If you cannot do it i can ask one of our volunteers do it for you - it will cost you $500 dollars and we will try to gather evidence by spending time on this character, just because you are raising this suspcition, checking logs will also cost another 250-400 dollars. You can pay by paypal.

1. You are agreeing that it is ok and not damaging to the spirit of the game, if I get my alt and the alts of 5 other in my clan to "sabotage" the PB of our competitors? The idea is hereby passed on to anyone who wants to pay a little extra to win.

2. What I am raising is a problem for the game. Instead of making a ridiculous insult you should consider that other games have been ruined by people being able to use exploits. When I am asking if there is a problem it is because I am asking for a fix. If you have no fix- fine! I would suggest however that you looked at how you could log info and check simple correlations between characters instead of legitimizing "sabotage" which might give you a short-term profit from the ones who will pay a little extra to win but long term will ruin your game.

I can at least conclude that the tribunal is there to give a false sense of justice and that the admin do not think that it is a problem that people with more than one account "sabotage" the game for other players (as long as they pay good money for the extra account). In short: Sorry I see it now: There is no problem at all. 

[Scout]

I was in the battle and one fact is not in here that i want to point out.

There was another battle right by the port battle swords might it be that this player did the mistake of joining the wrong battle ?

[admin]

1. You are agreeing that it is ok and not damaging to the spirit of the game, if I get my alt and the alts of 5 other in my clan to "sabotage" the PB of our competitors? The idea is hereby passed on to anyone who wants to pay a little extra to win.

2. What I am raising is a problem for the game. Instead of making a ridiculous insult you should consider that other games have been ruined by people being able to use exploits. When I am asking if there is a problem it is because I am asking for a fix. If you have no fix- fine! I would suggest however that you looked at how you could log info and check simple correlations between characters instead of legitimizing "sabotage" which might give you a short-term profit from the ones who will pay a little extra to win but long term will ruin your game.

I can at least conclude that the tribunal is there to give a false sense of justice and that the admin do not think that it is a problem that people with more than one account "sabotage" the game for other players (as long as they pay good money for the extra account). In short: Sorry I see it now: There is no problem at all. 

 

Players like you will not be comfortable here on our forums. You escalate conflict immediately without any consideration for other people opinions, without reading what they are trying to say to you. You only want YOU and don't care about other opinions or statements. 

 

I will repeat - mostly for others.

 

You said they are cheating - Sabotage is not cheating. Cheating is hacking the code gaining unfair advantage. Sabotaging is different and IS NOT cheating. You called him a cheater. If he is a spy or an alt he is not cheating - he is a saboteur (if he is) and game does not give national officers tools to handle those people.

 

But - joining a battle could be sabotaging or could be just honest mistake

Maybe he wanted to help (he joined because it was his first port battle)

Maybe he crashed and could not log in (ship surrenders then) (his video card could not handle so many large textured (50 large ships)

Maybe he could not leave and surrendered thinking it will free up space in battle

 

You have not spent time investigating this. You have not even asked this guy who he is. Talk to him in game before posting here.

 

Then you proceed and tell us - GO INVESTIGATE. in a condescending tone, just because you want it and you dont want to gather evidence.

Answer is no. We wont investigate cases with no evidence. There are ways to get your danish friends to spy on this guy. 

 

 

 

If i was that captain in a cerberus i would surrender again in the next port battle. I can guarantee he received a lot of negativity after he joined the battle in a light ship and surrendered in disguist. 

POTBS players made this mistake - they shhhed their rookies, valuing their precious pixels so much that they denied opportunity for lower level players to get battle experience. Thus forcing them out of the game.

 

TLDR

We take cheating very seriously - everything is on the server as a result. We take abuse very seriously we enforce clean chat and other rules. 

You posted a screen and said - "someone go investigate"

• answer - no. 
• reason - not enough evidence to move forwards. You were given this explanation before but continued posting about it. Please dont.

Also your exact phrase - "someone go investigate because i want you to" sounds very weird. Thus the responses. Change the tone and we can move mountains together.

[Castello Haufniensis]

Players like you will not be comfortable here on our forums. You escalate conflict immediately without any consideration for other people opinions, without reading what they are trying to say to you. You only want YOU and don't care about other opinions or statements. 

 

I will repeat - mostly for others.

 

You said they are cheating - Sabotage is not cheating. Cheating is hacking the code gaining unfair advantage. Sabotaging is different and IS NOT cheating. You called him a cheater. If he is a spy or an alt he is not cheating. 

 

But - joining a battle could be sabotaging or could be just honest mistake

Maybe he wanted to help (he joined because it was his first port battle)

Maybe he crashed and could not log in (ship surrenders then)

 

You have not spent time investigating this. You have not even asked this guy who he is. Talk to him in game before posting here.

 

Then you proceed and tell us - GO INVESTIGATE. in a condescending tone, just because you want it and you dont want to gather evidence.

Answer is no. We wont investigate cases with no evidence. There are ways to get your danish friends to spy on this guy. 

Ok...I need to make myself clear. I have said it a couple of times in this thread: This is not about the one case. The reason why I bring it up in the suggestion is because it is a question to the general function of the tribunal and the tools for discovering people using exploits...ok..clear..it is not about this one guy!!!

And as I also stated: As players we do not posses the tools to investigate these things...we can take a screenshot that´s all: I cannot investigate because it is possible to delete a character and continue on with the same user.

I tried to point out that if there are rules against sabotage via alternative accounts, there is no way we as players can prove anything, it is a surrogate solution to have moderators look at screenshots. But I got it cleared up: Sabotage is ok in this game.

Then I suggest that:

1. Sabotage via alts is made illegal. (Reason: It is not a proper game if you can pay to win)

2. Devs. look into the possibility for logging and cross-referencing accounts (Reason: As a player you have NO WAY to investigate these things)

I would like to say that I started this topic to suggest a change to the "juridical" system of the game to be dependent on data rather than the forum moderators (with an impossible task). Right now I feel insulted.....I really like the game and I think that it should not be ruined/made unplayable by people exploiting it.

I will not press the issue further but I think it is a shame and sad that you cannot see the distinction between the singular case (it is a minor particular detail) and my questions to the function of the tribunal (which is part of the game).

[Prince Serg]

I'm not sure if it is productive to lose one ship slot in a battle and complain. I could very well be wrong, but in many other games I play, (World of Tanks, World of Warships, War Thunder, Eve Online) there can usually be one person missing from a battle (normally present but totally incompetent and no help whatsoever) and the team can win anyways. So is it really that bad that you lost one slot?

[Balsafer]

Castello you are not getting it, a single picture is not enough to warrant the developers to investigate the one incident or any other "potential incident"  Developers have pointed out that alt spying is allowed because it was common back in that time period as well as sabotage.  The developers are not going to take the time to investigate every person that someone claims is spy or whatever because then development of game will stop.  Also Game Labs does not have the authority to investigate someone via their IP.

[Magnum]

I have many alts at my "disposal" Sir, and quite frankly they don't have the time or inclination to bother with sabotaging you in such a way.

 

I will bet you dollars to donuts that this was a newer player of your nation and that now he will likely never ever join with you again after such treatment as he received.

 

You will find it hard to proceed if you over value your pixels too much - relax have fun

 

-----

 

Anolytic, thanks for the pro tip about Vieques

[admin]

I tried to point out that if there are rules against sabotage via alternative accounts, there is no way we as players can prove anything, it is a surrogate solution to have moderators look at screenshots. But I got it cleared up: Sabotage is ok in this game.

Then I suggest that:

1. Sabotage via alts is made illegal. (Reason: It is not a proper game if you can pay to win)

2. Devs. look into the possibility for logging and cross-referencing accounts (Reason: As a player you have NO WAY to investigate these things)

 

 

Sabotage is allowed, its not a friendly golf game its an all out war. Keeping enemy in battle, tackling their fleets, providing mis information is allowed, faking attacks. is allowed.

 

BUT

• Open trolling and admissions that you are an alt is not allowed
• Using alts to gain unfair advantage is not allowed by locking access to other ships is not allowed.
• Using alts to pull people into battle is not allowed

What is hard is getting proof

 

If you prove that he is an saboteur - i will transfer him to Britain or to pirates. 

Topic will be locked

[Dius]

Right now I feel insulted.....I really like the game and I think that it should not be ruined/made unplayable by people exploiting it.

 

After reading the Devs response you're not the only one who feels insulted. 

 

Seriously there is a time and place for such a fuss & nothing I have read in this thread warrants said fuss.