Poundages and Range

[Destraex]

So we had a thread a while back which pretty much dispelled the possibility of having larger guns meant having longer range.

 

 I just read in my Osprey book about American Heavy Firgates that the Constitution that we have in this very game used the superior range and weight of it's 24 pounder battery to defeat the Macedonian while suffering minimal casualties.

 

Is this book wrong or do we have a balancing problem on our hands if we wish to be nice to history?

 

Personally if this is true I think that larger guns need to have longer range... more mass and more powder = more range??

 

I quote from Osprey New Vanguard American Heavy Frigates 1794-1826 Mark Lardas Illustrated by Tony Bryan

"A few weeks after the Constitution had bested the Guerriere, the United States encountered the Macedonian. Stephen Decatur, commanding the American Frigate, use the superior range and weight of his 24-pound battery to defeat the Macedonian while suffering only minimal casualties on his own ship"

 

Only mention heavier armament here though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Macedonian

[admin]

This book has extensive naval gunnery tests table. 

http://www.amazon.com/Frigates-Napoleonic-Wars-Robert-Gardiner/dp/1591142830/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417607418&sr=8-1&keywords=frigates+of+the+napoleonic+wars

 

It has testing results for multiple types of frigate cannons and carronades. Most large caliber cannons could shoot to 3000 yards at maximum elevation. Carronades indeed had shorter range. 

18lb guns had biggest range and final graze was at 3400 yards. Whats interesting is that 42 and 32 lb guns had less range than 18 and 24

 

of course spread was enormous at such distances. 

[maturin]

I think naval action needs to greatly increase spread at max range. Atm you have people in lineships taking the leeward position to kite and fire fron maximum range. It's incredibly boring for one team and frustrating for the other. The windward player cant ever get a shot in.

[Destraex]

This book has extensive naval gunnery tests table. 

http://www.amazon.com/Frigates-Napoleonic-Wars-Robert-Gardiner/dp/1591142830/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417607418&sr=8-1&keywords=frigates+of+the+napoleonic+wars

 

It has testing results for multiple types of frigate cannons and carronades. Most large caliber cannons could shoot to 3000 yards at maximum elevation. Carronades indeed had shorter range. 

18lb guns had biggest range and final graze was at 3400 yards. Whats interesting is that 42 and 32 lb guns had less range than 18 and 24

 

of course spread was enormous at such distances. 

thanks admin. You know this book was next to me here when read your post. Annoyed at this book as it should have had British in the title. Hardly any info on anything other than British frigates, although by default this means a lot of captured frigates.

[Destraex]

Here are a few shots from another book I own. The 42pdr at the top fires almost 1000yds further than the 12pdr.

Osprey The Royal Navy 1793-1815 by Gregory Fremont-Barnes Consultant Editor Dr Duncan Anderson

 

[maturin]

None of these damn numbers ever agree. It's worse than tanks and RHA.

[Reki]

The windward player cant ever get a shot in.

So he's idiot who put himself in that fail position?

 

 

You all should undestand, that if two guys start battle on equal position concerning a wind, if one of them later will be windward useless shit, that's HIS OWN problem. He got his chance, but do something wrong

[RAMJB]

So he's idiot who put himself in that fail position?

 

 

You all should undestand, that if two guys start battle on equal position concerning a wind, if one of them later will be windward useless shit, that's HIS OWN problem. He got his chance, but do something wrong

 

 

Hold on, you're suggesting that in a 1 v 1 battle with sail ships holding the wind gage is stupid?.

 

 

You just re-wrote every naval doctrine that dominated sea warfare for four centuries in a single post. You, sir, are a genius.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

For Kiting.Before a river of tears on this part of forum appears...

 

I have a feeling there is a language barrier here.

 

Arisu - windward means to be upwind of something - the wind is blowing from you, towards your target.  Leeward is the opposite - the wind is blowing from your target.  In sailing battles, ships attempt to get to windward of an opponent.  This allows them to dictate the range and timing of the engagement, as their opponent can't easily sail up to them against the wind.  What you are advocating is, at the start of every match, every ship run downwind as fast as they can in the hopes of getting farther downwind of their opponent, so they can fire at them with no fear of being fired upon.  This is not historically correct, it's not possible to counter, and it's not good gameplay.

[Reki]

I have a feeling there is a language barrier here.

 

Arisu - windward means to be upwind of something - the wind is blowing from you, towards your target.  Leeward is the opposite - the wind is blowing from your target.  In sailing battles, ships attempt to get to windward of an opponent.  This allows them to dictate the range and timing of the engagement, as their opponent can't easily sail up to them against the wind.  What you are advocating is, at the start of every match, every ship run downwind as fast as they can in the hopes of getting farther downwind of their opponent, so they can fire at them with no fear of being fired upon.  This is not historically correct, it's not possible to counter, and it's not good gameplay.

Ok I post about situation when someone, who hits you is far from you and his deck elevated up thanks to wind, but your - elevated down, so you can't hit him. I guess, it is you, who is windward, so all that i say before is what i want to said. In other topic ppl whine about kiting with long range leeward advantage because of elevated deck, and they say that its no counter for it. So I post here to say that they can counter it with doing same, if they see that fight will be in kite way or just get into yourparty lighter ships, who can sail to leeward location fast and prevent kiting with fight

[RAMJB]

all would be fine and dandy if we were speaking about a gunnery system that provides from the proper long range spread you'd find in guns of this era. Long range firing was impractical because shots fell all over the place. In this game they're very accurate. Your "Kiting" proposal makes no sense in a realistic environment where those ships should be putting their shots in an area the size of a football field. Yet in the game they're putting them in a well localized portion of your ship from very long ranges.

 

 

In other words, yes, being downwind you will be able to heel and raise your guns. No, in practical terms that doesn't mean you should be sniping anyone with those guns. You'd be lucky to put one or two cannonballs per broadside on target. The mechanics involved are not correctly implemented and the result is improper gameplay.

 

For me is not a huge deal tho, as I'm sure that gun dispersion is one of the things to be visited during the process of this game evolution. And once that happens, I hope you keep on running downwind if I happen to cross paths with you in a battle. Will make things that much easier for me

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Ok I post about situation when someone, who hits you is far from you and his deck elevated up thanks to wind, but your - elevated down, so you can't hit him. I guess, it is you, who is windward, so all that i say before is what i want to said. In other topic ppl whine about kiting with long range leeward advantage because of elevated deck, and they say that its no counter for it. So I post here to say that they can counter it with doing same, if they see that fight will be in kite way or just get into yourparty lighter ships, who can sail to leeward location fast and prevent kiting with fight

 

Ok, no language barrier. So you're saying the only viable tactic in the game if you want to win and not be an idiot is to run downwind as fast as possible?  Do you think there may be a problem with that kind of thinking?

[Destraex]

Here are the ones Admin was talking about from a book called Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars by by Robert Gardiner. This book is an excellent source for "British" frigates of the napoleonic wars. But not really for any other nation.

 

My problem with the below is that I could not locate any STANDARD tables but only tables for experimental or at least not widely used SHORT and LIGHT cannon the British NAVY were experimenting on.

Admin where have you found tables in this book for standard long guns that are in this game?

 

Congreve & Blomfield were experiments with short guns 

Gover were experiements with light guns 

 

Both experiments were of limited success and employed in less than 1% of vessels. You might find one or two ships in the entire fleet carrying them and usually unhappy about it.

You also found some merchantmen - east indiamen as well carrying them due to lower crew requirements.

 

These tables are of GOVER guns??? Which were special light cannon that were a failure 

 

This one is about some experimental "short" cannon that were used and for the most part failed and had special carriages.

 

Carronades

 

With different gunpowder types. Which I am hoping will be some sort of consumable in game. I wonder if over charging with powder should also be an option.

[maturin]

Those tables pretty much confirm that carronades and double-shotted guns had dramatically longer range than they do in game.

 

 

So he's idiot who put himself in that fail position?

It's difficult to argue with you when you don't actually know anything about age of sail combat.

So here's an analogy.

Someone releases a tank videogame where the best way to win is to present your rear armor to the enemy and back up towards them.

And then when someone points their front armor at the enemy like you're supposed to, you call them an idiot.

[admin]

Let's be civil here. Arisu a long term tester will be warned in private.

Now

The main problem with spread is that having realistic pistol shot distance kills options and kills tactics

Carronades disappeared exactly because of accurate long 18 and 24 lb guns used by French and us captains

Staying at Longer range should be a viable tactic.

[Sir. Cunningham]

Let's be civil here. Arisu a long term tester will be warned in private.

Now

The main problem with spread is that having realistic pistol shot distance kills options and kills tactics

Carronades disappeared exactly because of accurate long 18 and 24 lb guns used by French and us captains

Staying at Longer range should be a viable tactic.

 

Abolutely agree, however currently the accuracy is almost double that of real life, which leads to some very long range duels with accurate fire. I really suggest doubling the vertical dispersion as I feel this would solve a lot of gameplay issues and at the same time make the game more historically accurate.

 

Doing this will still make broadside fire deadly and reasonably accurate out to 500 yards, however shooting at 1000 yards and you should expect 75% misses against a Frigate sized target IMO, that is realistic.

[Leviathan]

I do think it's a necessary evil and gives another tactic option. Once the open world is available it won't be as much of an issue as you can simply sail off if you wish. Also, I don't think it's quite as effective as it once was in the larger ships. The Victory takes no damage even from another Victory unless you are in moderate range.

[Sir. Cunningham]

I do think it's a necessary evil and gives another tactic option. Once the open world is available it won't be as much of an issue as you can simply sail off if you wish. Also, I don't think it's quite as effective as it once was in the larger ships. The Victory takes no damage even from another Victory unless you are in moderate range.

 

Yes, I mentioned this as well (http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/1941-damage-cannons-repairs-firing-aiming-suggestions-and-feedback/page-9), speaking specifically of our experiences last night - we barely scratched each other at ~1000 yards, which seems a bit odd considering the penetration ability of 42, 32 & even 24 lber's at that distance 

[akd]

Let's be civil here. Arisu a long term tester will be warned in private.

Now

The main problem with spread is that having realistic pistol shot distance kills options and kills tactics

Carronades disappeared exactly because of accurate long 18 and 24 lb guns used by French and us captains

Staying at Longer range should be a viable tactic.

Staying at mid-range should be viable tactic with skilled player gunnery and long guns. Increasing range (vertical) dispersion would not make it nonviable, as broadsides aimed at the correct range (found through a combination of ranging shots and skill in estimating range) would still have the vast majority of shots connect with the target. A few would fall short, some would hit lower-hull, some mid-hull, some upper hull, and a few would go through rigging. In some ways it could make gunnery more effective at these ranges as a small mistake would be less absolute, but skilled gunnery (finding just the right range) would still be rewarded (the skilled gunner would aim such that no shots fall short, most shots go into hull and a few more shots fly high through rigging). The goal here would only be to increase vertical dispersion such that very few shots in the "spread" short and long of the target connect directly with the hull at ranges achievable by max gun elevation plus heel.

I personally think horizontal (left-right) dispersion is okay currently, so long as additional mechanisms aren't added to converge fire of all cannons on a single point.

[maturin]

Yes, I mentioned this as well (http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/1941-damage-cannons-repairs-firing-aiming-suggestions-and-feedback/page-9), speaking specifically of our experiences last night - we barely scratched each other at ~1000 yards, which seems a bit odd considering the penetration ability of 42, 32 & even 24 lber's at that distance 

AKD posted an excellent source in another thread.

 

 

A range of 750 or 800 yards is, therefore, according to Mr. Robins’ practice, the utmost range at which a 32-pounder shot can confidently be relied on to penetrate 30 inches into solid oak, or 54 inches into fir. By using the shell filled with lead, and increasing the charge proportionally, still keeping it % the weight of the projectile, the range, with this penetration, may, at the expense of more than doubling the recoil or strain upon the breeching, be extended to 1400 yards. By retaining the charge of a the weight of the solid shot and using the empty shell, or hollow shot, as it is the fashion to term it, the penetration of 30 inches can only be relied on as far as 350 yards. '

 

Where it may be suflicient to ensure a penetration of 18 inches into oak, or 32 inches into fir, 32-pounder shot are eflicient at a range of 1150 or 1200 yards, the strik ing velocity required being about 850 feet per second.

30 inches being the benchmark for a ship of the line. As I recall, in your heroic fight you guys were well over 800 yards away, most of the time.

[Sir. Cunningham]

AKD posted an excellent source in another thread.

 

30 inches being the benchmark for a ship of the line. As I recall, in your heroic fight you guys were well over 800 yards away, most of the time.

 

We were lobbing roundshot at each other from about a 1,000 yards I'd say, so if we take 30 inches as a benchmark then even our 24 lbers ought to have penetrated at that distance.

[NorthernWolves]

A 32lb'er has twice the range as a 12lb'er at maximum elevation, thus once the ranges are tweaked to be more accurate, that'll change the dynamic of a light frigate wanting to sit on the leeward and try to duel a ship of the line.

 

However let me add that at those ranges, neither ship would be often hitting the broadside of a barn... or a ship.

[Sir. Cunningham]

A 32lb'er has twice the range as a 12lb'er at maximum elevation, thus once the ranges are tweaked to be more accurate, that'll change the dynamic of a light frigate wanting to sit on the leeward and try to duel a ship of the line.

 

However let me add that at those ranges, neither ship would be often hitting the broadside of a barn... or a ship.

 

Actually it really won't change anything considering that it's already impossible for the Frigate's guns to penetrate a SoL's hull at long range, making it a pointless exercise for the Frigate. Heck even Victory's guns can hardly penetrate the hull of another Victory past 500-600 yards it seems.