Are 3rd rates too disposable?

[Francis Tabernac]

All ships should have the same durability when crafted. Making a ship that's already 20 times more expensive than smaller ships have less durability so that it costs even more to maintain is just a stupid kneejerk fix to "I don't want everyone to have 1st rates, only the cheesiest grinders in the game should have the best stuff!".

 

I'm not trying to pick on you in particular, but this theme of "only grinders get rewards" comes up from you a lot. There's a line between "too much grinding to accomplish anything real" and "rewards based on effort", and higher-level/end-game/whatever items should not be easily obtainable by just any player that makes a bare minimal amount of effort and puts in only a small amount of time, otherwise there's no incentive to try harder. Think of it like your job: should you get a bonus for just getting by, or should you get it for going the extra mile? If you answer the former then you don't want a bonus, you just want more salary.

[Aetrion]

I'm not trying to pick on you in particular, but this theme of "only grinders get rewards" comes up from you a lot. There's a line between "too much grinding to accomplish anything real" and "rewards based on effort", and higher-level/end-game/whatever items should not be easily obtainable by just any player that makes a bare minimal amount of effort and puts in only a small amount of time, otherwise there's no incentive to try harder. Think of it like your job: should you get a bonus for just getting by, or should you get it for going the extra mile? If you answer the former then you don't want a bonus, you just want more salary.

 

This should be a skill based game, not a grind based game. This whole "I earned this because I spent more time than you" defense is simply bollocks. Spending more time in the game doing boring upkeep tasks just to be allowed to participate in the competitive content has nothing to do with working hard or playing well. If you have any kind of job that values quantity over quality of work you're basically just waiting to get replaced by a robot, so no, the game shouldn't strive to simulate that experience.

[Doschichis]

You dont need to grind for 1st im sure that you can buy them off market later since all big clan will have a surplus of 1st rate.

Also, you will have production building, you can build your own 1st rate it just takes time.

And I think you will see a lot of 1 dura 2nd, 3rd rate for sale later on as well

Edited March 8, 2016 by Doschichis

[Aetrion]

Also, you will have production building, you can build your own 1st rate it just takes time.

 

If that was the case then the whole debate about them being disposable would be pointless either way. I don't want everyone to just have a 1st rate factory in their backyard, what I do want is a system that gives good reasons to use other ships other than just not having so much time for grinding that you can afford using them.

[Francis Tabernac]

This should be a skill based game, not a grind based game. This whole "I earned this because I spent more time than you" defense is simply bollocks.

 

Time spent earns rewards, as it should. If you have the skill, then the time taken is reduced comparatively as the rewards for performance decrease the time taken to 'grind', and you'll be able to perform better with what you've earned. As for quality vs quantity, I don't see why you seem to think they must be mutually exclusive.

[Nash]

If that was the case then the whole debate about them being disposable would be pointless either way. I don't want everyone to just have a 1st rate factory in their backyard, what I do want is a system that gives good reasons to use other ships other than just not having so much time for grinding that you can afford using them.

 

you can make 1st rate by yourself but remember you need to get lvl 50 crafting first ( huge investment, not anyone can/want do it) labor hours for 1st rate is around 8k to 9k hours. And you are kind of stupid to sail a 1st alone in open sea, any trinc or consti can cap you in 30 minutes. Not sure why you dont see the usefulness of 3rd rate and frigate in general.

[Aetrion]

Time spent earns rewards, as it should. If you have the skill, then the time taken is reduced comparatively as the rewards for performance decrease the time taken to 'grind', and you'll be able to perform better with what you've earned. As for quality vs quantity, I don't see why you seem to think they must be mutually exclusive.

 

The problem isn't with the idea that you need to spend time to earn rewards, the problem is with the idea that you need to spend time proportionately to using those rewards to keep them. That simply isn't the same thing. People aren't saying "Play for X# hours to get your first rate", people are saying "Play for X# hours to earn the ability to play with a first rate until you lose a fight". That's completely different, because it doesn't make it about how much time you've spent in the game overall, it makes it about always using a portion of your time in the game on upkeep rather than actually doing the thing you play the game for. At that point someone who plays 8 hours a day might be able to get a few good fights out of every playsession, but someone who plays 2 hours a day three days of the week can go two weeks without doing anything other than upkeep, and at that point there is no reason to play the game for that person anymore. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Aetrion

[Francis Tabernac]

If you can't commit to the amount of time and effort required to operate a 1st Rate (in your scenario) then play with something else. It's still coming back to "I should get to do everything no matter how little time or effort I'm willing/able to give" and to me that's unacceptable. I get a few hours of game-time in a week. I don't play much. I'm currently sailing about in Renommees or Frigates. Do I resent everyone that's put the time in to properly sail a 3rd Rate? No, why would I? They put in more time and effort than I did.

[Aetrion]

Effort and skill, fine. Demanding people sacrifice their time to be allowed to have the best stuff in the game is just stupid though. That's not a measure of anything positive.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Aetrion

[jodgi]

Effort and skill, fine. Demanding people sacrifice their time to be allowed to have the best stuff in the game is just stupid though. That's not a measure of anything positive.

I'm lvl 50 in crafting soon and I did it for this exact reason. Whatever skill I have doesn't give me access to the competetive gear, 5-6 weeks of extremely boring "grind" does, though.

If people love this resource hunting and port clicking then they should be allowed to click their hearts out.

I think it is a terrible thing in a glorious game.

Whatever the solution might be, please let this game be a place where a new guy is able to beat me. This equipment grind wall thing can't be good. I've never done eco/craft games before, but is grind walls really a prerequisite for eco gameplay... "The economy needs it"?

[Ruthless4u]

My whole issue with crafting/resource hunting is that they are 0 skill and 100 percent time sink. Less skill that is involved the less enjoyment is to be had.The more forced time spent away from skill based activity the more dull and frustrating the game becomes.

The way I look at it if you want a button pressing timesink play FarmVille.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Ruthless4u

[DrZoidberg]

Lots of us whining if we can capturing 3rds, lots of us whining if we cant. Its simple. make underdog status for weak nations (like spanish and swedish). let the weak nation capture 3rds and constis in missions and in fleets till they get back the certain port number. Nations whitout underdog status after misson and fleet battles should automatically sell the captured 3rds and constis to the admirality for the price they can sell at NPC (to strenghten the home fleet ). So strong nations can use only crafted ships, underdog nations should use crafted and capped ships. That should be a strong and fair balance for the game aswell. The problem that people are selfish. HC players wont support because they have capped 3rds yet, non hc playerz wanna try 3rds soon. BUT! this system get out shitload long term goals, and make nearly useless the 5th rates, which are the most enjoyable and worked out to fight. Think and support this idea. im a masterboarder, have like 15 capped 3rd, i cap one in mission like in 30 min, but i want this shit system changed...

[kumisz]

Join a guild, then you will get ships for cheap or free without you crafting or trading anything, and you can do the skill based gameplay you wish for. You are not forced to do any trading and crafting, you can buy everything for gold, which you get from every single battle. Even more from skill based PvP battles. What is wrong with having more options for people willing to trade and craft?

 

My whole issue with crafting/resource hunting is that they are 0 skill and 100 percent time sink. Less skill that is involved the less enjoyment is to be had.The more forced time spent away from skill based activity the more dull and frustrating the game becomes.


The way I look at it if you want a button pressing timesink play FarmVille.

[jodgi]

Join a guild...

This is true. But I squirm in my chair when the competitive stuff is largely unavailable to a (time) casual and non-clan player.

...you can buy everything for gold, which you get from every single battle. Even more from skill based PvP battles.

I'm dissatisfied when we have a system where you solve stuff by grinding bots [OPINION]. If you've done "skill based PVP battles" you know they are terrible for cashgrinding, not just slightly worse than mission grinding... terrible [FACT].

[Aetrion]

This is true. But I squirm in my chair when the competitive stuff is largely unavailable to a (time) casual and non-clan player.

 

Yea, this is really the core of the issue.

 

Even people who just prefer smaller clans get squeezed out by the current system.

[maturin]

I'm dissatisfied when we have a system where you solve stuff by grinding bots [OPINION]. If you've done "skill based PVP battles" you know they are terrible for cashgrinding, not just slightly worse than mission grinding... terrible [FACT].

The game needs to look at PotBS or even WoW in this regard.

 

Simply bumping the PvP gold gain sky-high is a poor choice, but PvP rewards can be as high as you want if you make them victory-based. Beating your opponents in fair or nearly-fair fights should provide redeemable items that can be turned in for crafting notes, mods and cash.

 

Heck, I wonder what would happen if both cash and XP from PvP became dependent on similar BR. People would need to gank against their own profit motive.

[jodgi]

Beating your opponents in fair or nearly-fair fights should provide redeemable items that can be turned in for crafting notes, mods and cash.

Hmmm... PVP chits. Lose - get a few, win - get more. Some things (only) obtainable with PVP chits. Keep golden marines, handbooks and more PVP chits exclusive.

The more think about it the more I like it; some kind of PVP only "economy".

[maturin]

That sort of thing is totally standard MMO fare, right? We're just all used to the placeholder systems.

 

 

And at the same time we could come down hard on ganks. No gold, XP or redeemables for fights with lopsided BR ratings. Lost battles provide the current level of rewards or less, unless you are credited with a kill.

[kumisz]

I think the gold upgrades (if I understand you correctly, that's what you mean) should not be PvP only rewards, they should stay craftable, but rewarding expensive stuff, or things that are hard to obtainfor PvP combat (like crafting notes, lot of hours for few xp, can be sold for a lot of money too) is a very good idea!

 

The more think about it the more I like it; some kind of PVP only "economy".

Edited March 9, 2016 by kumisz

[jodgi]

Some of the most powerful upgrades can't be crafted (marines, handbooks...).

[kumisz]

Some of the most powerful upgrades can't be crafted (marines, handbooks...).

 

Is that so? I am yet to reach those heights so I never knew.

[Nash]

I'm lvl 50 in crafting soon and I did it for this exact reason. Whatever skill I have doesn't give me access to the competetive gear, 5-6 weeks of extremely boring "grind" does, though.

If people love this resource hunting and port clicking then they should be allowed to click their hearts out.

I think it is a terrible thing in a glorious game.

Whatever the solution might be, please let this game be a place where a new guy is able to beat me. This equipment grind wall thing can't be good. I've never done eco/craft games before, but is grind walls really a prerequisite for eco gameplay... "The economy needs it"?

 

I think devs like to compare this game to dark souls so here my 2 cent.

if you dont cheat or edit your save files in dark souls, you still need to grind to get your gears and upgrade your equipment to +15. I can have 2k hours in dark souls 1 but if I invade other people in my lvl 10 character with shitty weapons, new players at lvl 80 and +10 weapon can kill me. BUT here is the thing, if I spend the time to grind, get my weapons to +15 and, get my character to lvl 120, I can kill most of the people I face.

 

its the same in Naval Action, you grind, get to your trinc, you can kill most of the target you see right? (1 vs 1 or maybe 1vs2)

Edited March 9, 2016 by Nash

[Aetrion]

The problem with PvP losses in this game is simply that it's your ability to participate that's under threat when your ship is under threat.

 

You're not losing your chance to accomplish a certain goal, you're losing your chance to even get back into the fight, and that's entirely different.

 

 

Dark Souls is a game that does this right. In Dark Souls you don't slide backwards. You don't lose gear you already have, you don't lose levels you've already gained. All you lose when you die is your progress toward the next milestone and you get to try again immediately. That's why Dark Souls is fun despite the fact that you die a lot.

 

That's entirely different from how this game operates. You lose progress you've already made when you get sunk here and you don't really lose progress toward a new goal, you instead have to regain your capabilities before making another attempt.

 

People try to identify things like 3rd rates as the problem for zergy tactics, but the issue isn't that people have too many ships to use, the issue is that they didn't actually have to work hard blockading ports and stuff to enable a harbor battle and don't lose the progress they've made toward that goal when they get rebuffed.

[maturin]

 

The problem with PvP losses in this game is simply that it's your ability to participate that's under threat when your ship is under threat.

 

You're not losing your chance to accomplish a certain goal, you're losing your chance to even get back into the fight, and that's entirely different.

That's why there is durability.

 

You can lose 4 times in one night with absolutely zero impact on your ability to participate. And this assumes that you are one of those mythical players who only has a single ship.

[Slamz]

The problem with PvP losses in this game is simply that it's your ability to participate that's under threat when your ship is under threat.

 

This is part of economic PvP.

 

The real question should be "what's the base level of sustainable PvP ship" and "is that fun".

 

So far I have never had to take a step down because I couldn't afford the PvP at my level anymore (which is one under 3rd rate) and even if I did I'm pretty sure I could still enjoy it. Part of open world / sandbox PvP is grouping up and finding fights you can win, which for us sometimes meant beating 3rd rates and Constitutions using Snows, Mercuries and Cerberuses.

 

So let's assume I'm top rank and find I cannot afford to PvP in 1st rates or even 3rd rates -- it's just too expensive in materials and my wins aren't paying for it.

 

Fine. So I have to PvP in....a Trincom? A Frigate? A Surprise, even? Maybe I have to stop using Exceptionals and go with Basics?

 

I'm pretty sure that would still be fun for me and the fact that I have been pushed out of my 1st rate is a noticeable victory for my enemies.

 

 

This is why we can't have 3rd rates basically be floating around for free on the open sea. I'm not sure what the "base level / sustainable PvP ship" should be, but I don't think it needs to be a 3rd rate.

 

If we sink two dozen 3rd rates in a port battle, that needs to mean something.