sigh stealing ships

[Aubrey]

Its a problem alright, but it should be part of an open world sandbox mmo. Its about immersion and freedom, if theres a trader hes free game for everyone in the proximity why give an advantage to the one guy initiating the fight?! Sounds like hand holding and especially unrealistic in a game that  tries to emulate a realistic setting.

Please explain how literally stealing a ship from a fellow naval officer of your nation is realistic, especially when you put the well-being of fellow ships and crews in danger to do so, by ramming/pushing them away or even firing?

Sure, in reality these ships were claimed for the navy, not personal gain, but it is a matter of, it seems, ever absent common sense and courtesy to grant the ship to the one who initiated the battle, he saw it first, he went for it first, he should take it a prize.

Everything else is nothing but a dick-move and you know it!

 

Do we want dick-moves to be the norm in this game like in all the other mmo where admins end devs do not dare to enforce strict rules because they might scare away the 12yo who stole daddies credit card?

My answer is no.

 

Also, "freedom" is something that didn't exist in the navies of that time with one sole exception: Pirates.

Be a pirate, be as free as you can be, go steal whatever you want - but if you join a nation and especially when YOU bring "realism", immersion into this, act as if you are a part of that navy during that period.

 

It is all so very simple, but too many people play with a completely egocentric and anti-social mindset and sometimes it seems they only get up in the morning to piss into someone else's cornflakes so they feel better.

For those, we have, again, the black flag.

(Not saying pirates are butts, but under that flag you can literally play as you like, that is the point.)

[Remo]

Had this happen to me today by a to be unnamed new player in a cutter. He actually wedged himself in-between me and the trader snow I was boarding after I did all the work to lower his crew. He started his boarding and took it from me.

 

Seriously made me hate the game for a good hour.

[Hexxus674]

If you are looking at this from a national or navy level, it was common practice at the time for all ships within sight to get a share of the prize money for capturing a ship. Even if they did not fire a shot because your presence affected the possible choices that the enemy could make. There just needs to be a fair way to split the loot at the end of the capture ( I have a hunch that that will be something to do with the "send to admiralty" function that currently does not work).

[Hyperion74]

Yeah, someone tried to "steal" my prize too. Popped in and started putting round shot in to the prize while I was trying to take out his rigging. The dude managed to make a complete nuisance of himself. Complete lack of tactics on his part. I boarded and took my prize anyhow, but what a pain in the arse. This is a MMO so I suppose we can expect this. There will be an element out there that does not care about other players. Just try not to be one of those yourself. 

[VonVolks]

Robert, did you use to chat to ask him not to capture it, or to coordinate or anything, or just ignore him?

 

Chat should quickly reveal what the other player wants to do, and you can go from there......

 

Its a PVP online game, and the days of sail were pretty lax when it came to rules, so really anything goes, aside from deliberate green on green national (not pirates) fire.  Hence use battle to chat to divine their intentions or to inform them what you would like to do. 

[Bartholomew Badgerbeard]

Yeah, someone tried to "steal" my prize too. Popped in and started putting round shot in to the prize while I was trying to take out his rigging. The dude managed to make a complete nuisance of himself. Complete lack of tactics on his part. I boarded and took my prize anyhow, but what a pain in the arse. This is a MMO so I suppose we can expect this. There will be an element out there that does not care about other players. Just try not to be one of those yourself. 

 

Something to bear in mind here is that this is still an Alpha game, and it is being tested. Sometimes it takes people to be "a pain in the arse" to actually explore, test and highlight issues with mechanics/ game-play etc.

If everyone behaved impeccably in game, then the game may well go to full release without these issues being addressed early on when it may be an easier proposition to make changes. Not advocating for poor behaviour, but just saying that even the worst players are, in there own way, making a contribution to the development of the game as a whole.

 

One other point I'd like to make that may not be of much import to most players, is that of role-playing. I have no idea how common role-playing is at the moment in this game, but there will be some for who it is a fun activity. In light of this, any decent RP'er will tell you that if there are too many restrictions on behaviour in a RP situation then it becomes extremely hard to actually engage in any kind of meaningful role play. People are complex, old- time naval officers were people and subsequently had a range of motivations and behaviour patterns that go beyond a simple (and boring) stereotype. I'm no expert, but I'm sure there were situations where navy officers have acted in a disreputable or even dishonourable way in order to further themselves both politically and financially. A good role-player may be interested in exploring this in-game. Not a huge issue as I said, but certainly something that should not be extinguished completely in my opinion. I'd hate to see every navy officer be a Nelson/ Hornblower clone, just as I'd hate to see every pirate be a Blackbeard/ Jack Sparrow clone (and no, the irony of my name does not escape me).

Edited February 7, 2016 by Badgerbeard

[Benass]

Discussion like this is what makes the game better. 

 

PPL should post there annoyances,

 

I would say  end of a battle  loot should be split to all participants who did damage.   But who captures a ship?   Well  as long as cargo is evenly distributed, the ship  is not that much to worry about.

 

 

Devs should encourage Party sailing. not solo vs AI. 

[Ratline]

Then we are largely in agreement on this score.

 

However, one point I was trying to make, is that sometimes the best way to fight back is to outthink someone so that a conflict does not arise in the first place, hence hunting "off the beaten path" so to speak. If you, or others, wish to use trader spawns as a means to initiate conflict, then yes, there should most definitely be mechanics in place to allow for this (especially on a PvP server). This is very much in keeping with a risk vs. reward style of gameplay.

 

I did not mean my previous post to come across as any kind of personal dig at you in particular, it's just that the way you referred to "your prize", " your battle", " the ship you captured" (although you had not at that time actually captured it if I read your post correctly) is sort of what I was getting at..... It's not yours until you have it safely back in port, up until that point it's anybody's.

 

I do recognise that the instanced nature of the ship combat is largely responsible for the proprietary feeling many players have if they are the first to attack a NPC, but it's whether or not that feeling is justified within the larger framework of an open world sandbox that I am questioning. The instances are required by the overall mechanics (time scaling being the major one I'd guess), no way around that really, but the decision needs to be made and communicated as to whether the "claiming" of a ship that you have not yet captured is a valid reason to issue complaint against a fellow player, or players.

 

Fighting over a prize would be the preferred option for me, how such mechanics could be implemented without introducing unforeseen and undesirable loopholes for true "griefing"...now that's a tricky one for sure.

 

You're still thinking about this from an EVE mentality. In that game there is no reason for two players not to fight over a prize, be they the same faction, alliance or even corp (although that might be pushing it). In this game we are specifically playing as members of the same navy. The idea that another member of the Royal Navy would be tolerated in stealing a prize from their comrade is unthinkable, even more absurd would be the idea of two members of the same naval force fighting over a prize, killing their own countrymen and sinking their ship.

 

Just because this is a predominantly pvp game does not mean that 'anything goes', nor should it. For the game to make any sense and have any lasting appeal and character beyond mindless ganks and griefing there has to be integrity in the game world. As such there does need to be some thought put into the mechanics of who has the 'right' to claim a prize beyond 'the biggest stick wins'.

 

The problem with giving  boarding rights to the first to enter comes with battles involving groups who are co-operating, where the person intercepting and tagging might not be the one wanting to board. It also doesn't work where there are multiple targets to be boarded. Deciding it on most damage done also has problems. If you are carefully chaining a ship and prepping to board another player could easily troll you by hitting the targets with broadsides and 'stealing' the right to board.

 

Either way, better solutions are needed beyond making this a free for all, gank or be ganked, style game. We have EVE for that

Edited February 7, 2016 by Ratline

[Robert Sterling]

Please explain how literally stealing a ship from a fellow naval officer of your nation is realistic, especially when you put the well-being of fellow ships and crews in danger to do so, by ramming/pushing them away or even firing?

Sure, in reality these ships were claimed for the navy, not personal gain, but it is a matter of, it seems, ever absent common sense and courtesy to grant the ship to the one who initiated the battle, he saw it first, he went for it first, he should take it a prize.

Everything else is nothing but a dick-move and you know it!

 

Do we want dick-moves to be the norm in this game like in all the other mmo where admins end devs do not dare to enforce strict rules because they might scare away the 12yo who stole daddies credit card?

My answer is no.

 

Also, "freedom" is something that didn't exist in the navies of that time with one sole exception: Pirates.

Be a pirate, be as free as you can be, go steal whatever you want - but if you join a nation and especially when YOU bring "realism", immersion into this, act as if you are a part of that navy during that period.

 

It is all so very simple, but too many people play with a completely egocentric and anti-social mindset and sometimes it seems they only get up in the morning to piss into someone else's cornflakes so they feel better.

For those, we have, again, the black flag.

(Not saying pirates are butts, but under that flag you can literally play as you like, that is the point.)

 

 

Simply a brilliant post.

Robert, did you use to chat to ask him not to capture it, or to coordinate or anything, or just ignore him?

 

Chat should quickly reveal what the other player wants to do, and you can go from there......

 

Its a PVP online game, and the days of sail were pretty lax when it came to rules, so really anything goes, aside from deliberate green on green national (not pirates) fire.  Hence use battle to chat to divine their intentions or to inform them what you would like to do. 

 

 

Yes....and was ignored.

[Remo]

I agree with Aubrey. If I were a Rat for which I am not, I would not be upset with another Rat stealing one of my prizes. That is after-all what Rats do, they fight over scraps.

 

However to see it done by other naval officers of my own Nation, that is ridiculous indeed.

[Admiral 8Q]

I found it amusing actually. I get a mission just off the capital, my cutter vs a pirate cutter and then our nations entire fleet with ships as big as liners with 3 decks of cannons shows up.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Admiral 8Q

[TheBudmonkey]

Robert, did you use to chat to ask him not to capture it, or to coordinate or anything, or just ignore him?

 

Chat should quickly reveal what the other player wants to do, and you can go from there......

 

Its a PVP online game, and the days of sail were pretty lax when it came to rules, so really anything goes, aside from deliberate green on green national (not pirates) fire.  Hence use battle to chat to divine their intentions or to inform them what you would like to do. 

actually if a captain tried to interfere like this in rl then he would have been immediately sent before a navy disciplinary board and probably court marshalled  - so its not realistic at all to have players greifing others and stealing trader captures- 

Edited February 8, 2016 by TheBudmonkey

[Admiral 8Q]

actually if a captain tried to interfere like this in rl then he would have been immediately sent before a navy disciplinary board and probably court marshalled  - so its not realistic at all so have players greifing others and stealing trader captures- 

True that.

[Bartholomew Badgerbeard]

actually if a captain tried to interfere like this in rl then he would have been immediately sent before a navy disciplinary board and probably court marshalled  - so its not realistic at all to have players greifing others and stealing trader captures- 

 

I'm no an expert on Naval history, but I do question whether there was never any officer who behaved "dishonourably" and got away with it? Given that in such circumstances there would likely be no official record kept. People are people, there are certainly accounts of navy officers committing horrific acts in the name of discipline, some seemingly beyond the norm for the time....I'd certainly question the moral and ethical values of a potential psychopath with the power of rank behind him. History doesn't record the acts no-one found out about.

 

I have no doubt that there were senior officers who have used rank and position to "steal" prizes from a junior officer.....and prizes were more than just captured ships, we have the story of the pickle to illustrate one way an officer could attempt to use rank for personal gain. Granted they would be unlikely in the extreme to use force, but then no-one is asking the devs to give the prize ship to the most senior officer present in the battle either.

 

The problem in-game, is that for the most part your biggest competitors are your own faction, at least where making money and xp are concerned, the faction enemies are little more than a minor irritation in comparison. The solution is simple, move away from capitols, but that does not seem popular for some reason. In this case I'd ask for a flag mechanic to allow for "limited" green on green, but I am a pirate don't forget and what is relevant for pirates may not be suitable for other factions.

[Ratline]

The problem in-game, is that for the most part your biggest competitors are your own faction, at least where making money and xp are concerned, the faction enemies are little more than a minor irritation in comparison. The solution is simple, move away from capitols, but that does not seem popular for some reason. In this case I'd ask for a flag mechanic to allow for "limited" green on green, but I am a pirate don't forget and what is relevant for pirates may not be suitable for other factions.

 

This is as much a problem of the game mechanics being incomplete as anything else. There need to be more ways to focus on disrupting the trade and general operation of your enemies. Beyond that people need to stop mindlessly grinding out missions and actually fight other nations. Again, the game needs better mechanics to incentivise this beyond 'pvp is fun'.

As for history, while what you say is not untrue, the 'stealing' of prizes was more a matter of bureaucracy and corruption than force. We can't go throwing stuff in on the basis that 'it could have happened because you can't prove it didn't'. By that principal we can also have zombies, dragons and alien ninja pirates.. sure they were there, people just didn't talk about it.

[Bartholomew Badgerbeard]

This is as much a problem of the game mechanics being incomplete as anything else. There need to be more ways to focus on disrupting the trade and general operation of your enemies. Beyond that people need to stop mindlessly grinding out missions and actually fight other nations. Again, the game needs better mechanics to incentivise this beyond 'pvp is fun'.

As for history, while what you say is not untrue, the 'stealing' of prizes was more a matter of bureaucracy and corruption than force. We can't go throwing stuff in on the basis that 'it could have happened because you can't prove it didn't'. By that principal we can also have zombies, dragons and alien ninja pirates.. sure they were there, people just didn't talk about it.

 

 

I am very much in agreement with the first point here. As a pirate I loath the very idea of missions, it just does not "feel" right from a role-play perspective (yes, I'm a bit of a role-player at times) to be taking orders from some unknown "boss" pirate who rewards me with rank. I'd love to see far more "reward" come from open world piracy and raiding than some ridiculous missions. If this kind of game-play could also have a bigger impact on the various nations, all to the good.

 

As for the other factions, missions actually make sense from an XP point of view, junior officers in a faction would carry out the orders of officers they are sworn to obey. In this case I'd say it might be an idea to have missions give extra xp, but a reduced gold payout, while attacking enemy ships at sea gives the gold. From that point we'd then need to come up with some way to have open sea activities have a direct impact on the factions themselves, possibly by tying the NPC traders into the port production system...the fewer trader that make it to port, the less goods etc. available to that faction. However that is somewhat off topic.

 

As far as stopping the "stealing" of prizes goes...Green on green is forbidden, ok good. Now it's just a matter of deciding whether the system should rely on an individuals personal "honour" or on a hard and fast mechanic. I argue for the former from the stand point of a role-player, simply because restricting options to explore characters is bad for role-play. I accept though that there are many (probably most) for whom this is not even a consideration, and for whatever reason they demand that the devs take on the responsibility for ensuring a successful capture rather than make a few (very minor) decisions for themselves which would almost ensure that such situations do not arise.

 

In all seriousness, is the requirement to move a little further from the starter areas really that onerous a task for so many people? The concentration of players in limited areas is already causing other issues, making it ever easier to "stay home" and grind is surely not the best solution? 

 

As to the second part of the quoted text, I feel I was making a valid point in response to those who started bringing real- world reasoning into the game, and overlooking the fact that not all naval officers were paragons of virtue.....no need to bring zombies into this

Edited February 8, 2016 by Badgerbeard

[Quineloe]

I dont think that any historic captain would have had a chance to get away with such action. We command our ships ourselves, but back then even smaller ships had an officer staff half a dozen men strong, who would all have been honour bound to testify against their commanding officer if he bad pulled a stunt like that.

Devs have already said they are considering what to do about this and we just have to wait.

[Aubrey]

In all seriousness, is the requirement to move a little further from the starter areas really that onerous a task for so many people?

No, not at all - it is besides the point however.

[Bartholomew Badgerbeard]

No, not at all - it is besides the point however.

 

I'm not sure it is, the OP was complaining about having "his/ her" prize 'jacked....I have never had a prize taken from me, not once. Makes me wonder if people are just making all these stories up sometimes

 

The point is simply this...is it your prize before you have got it back to port? Yes or no? Green on green is not the point, that has already been addressed by the devs. I am uncertain if ramming damage is counted as green on green? If not then perhaps that is something to be looked at to prevent players from using deliberate ramming in place of gunfire to interrupt a boarding. Again, maybe it's the fact that I play a pirate that skews my point of view, but if someone were to take a ship that I was after, then fair play to them...they out-witted me and I suffer the consequences of not being good enough to stop them (within the rules). If the devs would like to reverse their decision on green versus green in a battle instance....well all I can say is Yaaaarrrr!

 

Maybe there could be a way of "laying claim" to a prize, one that would be visible to all players in an instance. If the claim is not "officialy" contested then the claimant is the only one who could board, and any ship that acts in a manner causing the prize to sink after a claim has been made would be penalised in some manner (damage done before a claim was made would not count towards this). However if a claim is contested by another player, both players are now flagged for PvP against each other, just them no-one else. If multiple players make a claim then all claiments are flagged, however there should only be a brief window in which such claims could be made to prevent re-enforcement ganking. If no claim is laid, the prize belongs to whoever takes her.

 

Just a thought.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Badgerbeard

[Aubrey]

I'm not sure it is, the OP was complaining about having "his/ her" prize 'jacked....I have never had a prize taken from me, not once. Makes me wonder if people are just making all these stories up sometimes

Yes it is.

The point is not "how to minimize the risk it happens", it is not to let it happen in the first place.

Not to just take what you desire is an unwritten rule of courtesy and common sense, at least it has been so far.

Of course, there is always "that guy", however, "that guy" brought his friends since steam release.

 

First ship I tried to cap? Some cutter came along, ignored what I said in chat and went for it - joining minutes after me and my friends initiated the battle.

This sucks. It isn't fun, it kills immersion, it is WAY less authentic than any other scenario and I do not see for a second why this must be defended in any way - except we speak pirates, which we don't.

 

Theoretically, they can do that without punishment, there is no official rule and no game mechanic to prevent it - but I hope you see the point I made earlier about courtesy and common sense.

When I chase a trader in open world and someone else initiated combat before me, I break off and look for something else, I won't even join the game because the only reason to do so is to be a dick.

[Hethwill]

A per unwritten rules of high seas privateering, more like guidelines of good conduct that actual laws, you ask IF they need help, sometimes the escorts are more than we can chew.

 

IF they are okay it is time to leave. IF they say nothing engage the escorts.

 

After all when your fellow corsair initiated the Attack it was the intention to cath and prize the trader vessel. Help him out if needed. A good action yields more satisfaction than a condemnable move of a nation's corsair stealing another corsair prizes.

It looks like you are squabbling like hogs in the scraps pit out of despair... ( hear the seagulls scream...mine mine mine !... )

 

Uphold the gentlemanly conduct. Always.

[Bartholomew Badgerbeard]

Yes it is.

The point is not "how to minimize the risk it happens", it is not to let it happen in the first place.

Not to just take what you desire is an unwritten rule of courtesy and common sense, at least it has been so far.

Of course, there is always "that guy", however, "that guy" brought his friends since steam release.

 

First ship I tried to cap? Some cutter came along, ignored what I said in chat and went for it - joining minutes after me and my friends initiated the battle.

This sucks. It isn't fun, it kills immersion, it is WAY less authentic than any other scenario and I do not see for a second why this must be defended in any way - except we speak pirates, which we don't.

 

Theoretically, they can do that without punishment, there is no official rule and no game mechanic to prevent it - but I hope you see the point I made earlier about courtesy and common sense.

When I chase a trader in open world and someone else initiated combat before me, I break off and look for something else, I won't even join the game because the only reason to do so is to be a dick.

 

I do understand the point, and "out of character" I agree with it. I was simply trying to illustrate that there may be other solutions to just an outright ban on this behaviour.

 

For myself, I dislike trolls and griefing, it's not how I would act in real life, so I do not do it in-game unless I am role-playing and it is behaviour that would be expected from a specific character in specific circumstances. 

 

Last night I did enter a battle initiated by another player, I asked if he/ she needed help...no reply. I asked if they intended to board...no reply (although the full broadside the navy brig gave to the NPC lynx was pretty much an answer to that). So I loaded chain, reduced the NPC's sails to 50% and then stood off and watched the other player sink her. Waste of a prize in my opinion, but beyond wrecking the sails, I did not interfere with the battle. However, it certainly would of been in character to do so, and that would not of been motivated by the desire to grief, but by a pirates desire to make profit...although picking a fight with a navy brig would perhaps of given pause for thought. There are other motivations at play sometimes, and I'd hope the devs bear this in mind when attempting to find a solution to this issue.

[Long Beard]

When entering combat via AI, it would be good if you could chose to lock the battle so no one else could join.  Not very realistic I suppose, but then again, people instantly being able to warp in on a battle isn't very realistic either when you take into consideration how long it would be for them to reach your position in open water in real life.

[Ratline]

I am very much in agreement with the first point here. As a pirate I loath the very idea of missions, it just does not "feel" right from a role-play perspective (yes, I'm a bit of a role-player at times) to be taking orders from some unknown "boss" pirate who rewards me with rank. I'd love to see far more "reward" come from open world piracy and raiding than some ridiculous missions. If this kind of game-play could also have a bigger impact on the various nations, all to the good.

 

As for the other factions, missions actually make sense from an XP point of view, junior officers in a faction would carry out the orders of officers they are sworn to obey. In this case I'd say it might be an idea to have missions give extra xp, but a reduced gold payout, while attacking enemy ships at sea gives the gold. From that point we'd then need to come up with some way to have open sea activities have a direct impact on the factions themselves, possibly by tying the NPC traders into the port production system...the fewer trader that make it to port, the less goods etc. available to that faction. However that is somewhat off topic.

 

As far as stopping the "stealing" of prizes goes...Green on green is forbidden, ok good. Now it's just a matter of deciding whether the system should rely on an individuals personal "honour" or on a hard and fast mechanic. I argue for the former from the stand point of a role-player, simply because restricting options to explore characters is bad for role-play. I accept though that there are many (probably most) for whom this is not even a consideration, and for whatever reason they demand that the devs take on the responsibility for ensuring a successful capture rather than make a few (very minor) decisions for themselves which would almost ensure that such situations do not arise.

 

In all seriousness, is the requirement to move a little further from the starter areas really that onerous a task for so many people? The concentration of players in limited areas is already causing other issues, making it ever easier to "stay home" and grind is surely not the best solution? 

 

As to the second part of the quoted text, I feel I was making a valid point in response to those who started bringing real- world reasoning into the game, and overlooking the fact that not all naval officers were paragons of virtue.....no need to bring zombies into this

 

It's not that missions are bad, as such, but that they give no incentive or reason to ever confront the 'real' enemy, namely other players. You can get all your gold and xp from sinking bots and never leave home waters. No naval officer would progress in rank without ever taking the fight to the enemy. Now, if missions were only available in hostile waters we would have a very different situation. The entire mechanics of how you get missions, and likely the reward structure, would need to be reworked but it could be interesting. It would certainly result in more pvp.

I know where you are coming from with not wanting to restrict options for roleplay purposes. However the problem lies again in the lack of mechanics to actually play it out. That argument is only valid if there is a counter to a player stealing your prize. Historically it would have been either the refusal of subordinate officers to follow such a course of action, or a court martial. Neither of those possibilities exist in game and the 'victim' is left with no recourse other than grumbling on the forums or in chat.

 

Sure people can move away from their capital, but the problem still exists. I sailed to Mexico from Port Royal, the first battle in initiated another player entered and attacked my target. Thankfully he was a polite chap and we just sank the targets and moved on.

And yeah, the zombies... I was being a little facetious. Point was more that we know how things did happen, and while they might have happened other ways in cases not recorded it is pure speculation and hard to base an argument on.