How to make skill matter? - Suggestions

[admin]

regarding Reload shock.

 

Its purpose is not to help in 2v1 

Its purpose is to help smaller side in 3v6 or 6v12

 

Perhaps i can explain it in detail 

 

Origin of the reload shock. 

There multiple references when ships were able to break reload routine for the enemy sometimes silencing the opposite side for almost 5-10 mins. Glorious first of June had a couple of examples described in Sam Willis books. We decided that such stun can have place in NA

 

Purpose

In 2v4 or 3v6 or basically any other engagment where your side is at a disadvantage but you can gain advantage by focusing your fire properly

But you have to fulfill two conditions

• You sail close to each other preferably in a tight line
• You focus fire and shoot AT THE SAME TIME with your group members

If you are able to inflict significant % damage over broadside length (5 sec) - you will shock enemy crew by flying planks, splinter and deaths of comrades stopping their reload. 

It becomes important to shoot AT THE SAME TIME not spread over time. 

 

If you are fighting 2v4 and if your enemy is not organized you could theoretically keep 2 ships on constant reload shock (with the right positioning) 

It also makes lower calibers more dangerous (faster reload allows more  reload shocks)

 

 

Same with crew shock 

or with rigging

[Guest raat]

This isn't meant to be offensive, but in my opinion, there is no way to truly make this game a game of skill at this point without removing nearly half of the last year's changes to combat.

 

The path of development for combat over the last year was nearly all to make the game more forgiving for the new player.  And to be fair, some of these things were planned all along.  The changed aiming system and "unlocked" focus, reinforcements and long reinforcement timers, more and more and more Hull HP, the AI Fleets, BR restrictions (and just BRs in general), an easy to learn/easy to master boarding system, no real crew morale system, Repair changes (remember them on timers?), etc. etc.

 

The path of development has removed a lot of skill and what skill is left in the game is capped for sure.  Once you learn to manual sail, get a feel for proper aim, and learn how to use the wind to your advantage, you're pretty much set unless you meet a really seasoned player.  Even then, you'll fare a lot better than you used to even in a 1v1.  Basically, with all the changes to the game, the skill cap has a much earlier rate of diminishing returns.

 

I just don't see enough changing to really give that back.  They'd have to remove or change too much and that's a lot of wasted work.  If you were expecting a high skill game, it's just not that game anymore.  And again, a lot of this stuff was planned all along seemingly so it's not really fair if people are complaining that there isn't enough skill in the game.

 

------

Shuetzengel is right on here.  If the devs want a game of skill, ALL of these things and more need to be a part of combat:

 

No autoskipper

No rolling broadside

No hull repair

No turning without the thrust of sails or flowing water past the rudder

Increased gun disabling from rakes

Less HP on the rudder

No shooting broadside arc indicator

No shooting sector indicator for single cannons

No shooting aimbar

 

I would add:

 

-Crew morale system that actually means anything and that makes Surrender as viable option

-No "durabilities" on ships

-Variable winds (direction and speed) in combat

-REMOVE mods (ships don't need magic buffs) - if you want specialization make a system focused around crew specialization and training that takes time and is lost if you lose crew

-a Boarding system that isn't 3 types of rock..., paper, scissors, and pass for a turn

 

I would especially emphasize that these elements REALLY reduce the skill level of the game:

 

-Turning without water moving over the rudder and at full stop

-Shooting "sectors" and their indicators for aim assist

 

Changing just those 2 things would go a long way to adding some skill back to the game.

[Powderhorn]

Admin: If that is the purpose of reload shock, individual broadsides should not put a ship in reload shock. It should be rarely seen, and only ever happen when multiple ships are firing on the same target at the same time. Two ships firing on one, each putting the one into reload shock 30s at a time, really destroys any possibility of your skilled one player defeating two, let alone three other frigates of even moderate experience.

[admin]

This isn't meant to be offensive, but in my opinion, there is no way to truly make this game a game of skill at this point without removing nearly half of the last year's changes to combat.

 

 

I think you dont know what are you talking about. 

 

That means bring 3 sail repairs /or 3 hull repairs back

That means bring stationary rotation back - current rotation is like 3x slower than before

That means makes speed faster (it was much faster before) and speeds were nerfed like 20-30% across the board (turning as well)

That means bring laser accuracy at 2 km

Also rolling broadside is historical and locked unlocked sector actually brings historically possible convergence, which was impossible before.

That means bring back slow unrealistic cannonballs

That means bring many other things that were gone like HP that was 3x lower

No ricochets also

 

We remember you always were a negative kind of person. Perhaps you want combat to be more CASUAL (like it was before) without actually understanding it? Where it required split second decision making because you could be dead in 3 broadsides but then repair everything back and come back in full health

[admin]

for those who will continue saying bring old times back - BE HONEST

if you want game to be more casual (and as a result more skilled) say it directly. don't hide it under other false pretenses dont talk about repairs for example that actually increased tactical depth.

 

here is the consti broadside on a trinco from the sea trials (damage is a lot higher then)

https://youtu.be/bhQSclnDdKI?t=946

[admin]

Admin: If that is the purpose of reload shock, individual broadsides should not put a ship in reload shock. It should be rarely seen, and only ever happen when multiple ships are firing on the same target at the same time. Two ships firing on one, each putting the one into reload shock 30s at a time, really destroys any possibility of your skilled one player defeating two, let alone three other frigates of even moderate experience.

 

2 ships modestly skilled ships will a;ways win against a solo ship as i said reload shocks are not for solo players but for small groups. 

If 2 ships can focus fire you are dead - way of life.

 

unless that 1 ship rakes them both turning the tide

[Prater]

Jodgi, i really like your idea of mast-hitboxes extending into the hull. Could be really good.

While talking with laik about different ideas we came up with the following idea:

In Trafalgar the Victory was sailing straight into the line of the frensh, but was not demasted. If you would concentrate fire in NA, you can ofc completely demast a ship before it reaches your line. Also in small engagements, you can demast a ship from range and only engage once you have your enemy demasted. That's actually one of the most common strategies for small engagements.

Being completely demasted from range leaves the victim with no option but to look and quitely accept his fate. He cannot do anything, because not only he cant sail away, he also basically cant turn, and no skill in using manual sails will help him maneuver. He's a sitting duck, watching his slow and painfull death.

If you look at the painting from trafalgar you can see something interesting:

Most of the masts of the ships in front are totally messed up. But only few of them are completely gone. Most of them still have their bottom section up. Many ppl here can explain why that is better than i ever could. We were thinking how you could replicate that in the game. Because right now the mast is either up, or it's gone. There is nothing in between atm. (although the hitboxes and so on are there). If you had your bottom section still up, you would still be able to maneuver. You would still be able to use manual sails, a skilled player would still be able to use his skill, even if he's in a bad spot, and you could still actually do something.

The idea is to implement a mast repair. That mast repair could be called "improvised masts" and it would repair only the bottom section of missing masts. It could even be a cooldown repair.

Let's say, that every 20 minutes you could repair the bottom section of your mast, if it is missing. Like that you could repair up to an absolute maximum of 30% sail mass every 20 minutes, but ONLY if your masts have been shot down. Using that repair with only one dead mast would maybe bring back around 10% sails. And using this with all masts up, would actually do nothing. This could also be just an added feature to the "emergency repair" that we already have.

This would make it so that demasting is still viable, but a demasted captain would still be able to do something, he would still be able to somewhat maneuver, he would still be able to somewhat use manual sails, he would not just be doomed to sit there and watch.

Of course you could still shoot down those improvised masts aswell, to make the ship completely unmaneuverable. But it would take very much dedication to do that.

With 3 improvised masts you would still be easily boardable, the attacker could still stay out of your arcs and you still would get 2:1ed a lot. But you would also still be able to do something and actively maneuver and participate in the fight. I think it would be good to try that out.

The goal of this whole system is to still have gameplay when getting demasted.

What do you think of "improvised masts"?

I am pretty sure, but could be wrong, that happened because of dispersion. Even when you fired at the hull, at close range some shots are going to go high and hit rigging and masts. If you get lucky, you hit the base of the mast even if you hit the hull. Or, when you are shooting at the hull, you hit the chains connecting the shrouds to the hull. If we had all this, then mast hp wouldn't have to be buffed, but because how easy it is to demast at range (because of accuracy) they added the mast buffs in( I think). Then there is the absolutely necessary reinforced masts for competitive pvp.

Also, is it me or is proper raking fire devestating enough? I've been losing and killing 100-200+ people on rakes. It is quite ridiculous. 1 proper take can essentially disable a Coni. A surprise can do this in 1 rake to a Coni. I can decrew a Bellona in 2-4 rakes in my Coni. I don't think it should be that easy.

[admin]

Also, is it me or is proper raking fire devestating enough? I've been losing and killing 100-200+ people on rakes. It is quite ridiculous. 1 proper take can essentially disable a Coni. A surprise can do this in 1 rake to a Coni. I can decrew a Bellona in 2-4 rakes in my Coni. I don't think it should be that easy.

 

I think veterans just cant see the valley from the mountain of 1 year of experience.

New players are still struggling fighting with a cutter. 

 

And i think that asking for more realism people feedback slowed down the game so you cant see skill anymore. Its just too slow and deliberate where mistakes could be corrected even before the other side notices it. And because its slow skill threshold is lowered. Imagine Counter strike at 10x slower speed. Thats what we got thanks to realism lobby

[Scorpio Shirica]

The the recent nerf to undercrewed ships, I see rakes as a lot more devastating now. 

[Guest raat]

I think you dont know what are you talking about. 

 

That means bring 3 sail repairs /or 3 hull repairs back

That means bring stationary rotation back - current rotation is like 3x slower than before

That means makes speed faster (it was much faster before) and speeds were nerfed like 20-30% across the board (turning as well)

That means bring laser accuracy at 2 km

Also rolling broadside is historical and locked unlocked sector actually brings historically possible convergence, which was impossible before.

That means bring back slow unrealistic cannonballs

That means bring many other things that were gone like HP that was 3x lower

No ricochets also

 

We remember you always were a negative kind of person. Perhaps you want combat to be more CASUAL (like it was before) without actually understanding it? Where it required split second decision making because you could be dead in 3 broadsides but then repair everything back and come back in full health

 

I didn't say bring back ST1, did I?  ST1 was very unrealistic and I don't want that.  ST1 did have more skill involved, but was a completely different game.

 

However, the changes and path of development you have taken the game has made the game less skilled.  While I'm not a developer, I'm sure there was a way to take the game in a direction that is historical yet skillful.

 

The current game is historical in intent and that's great, but it's limited on skill.  I provided plenty of ways the game could be more skillful in my post through my own suggestions and quoting Shuetzengel.

 

None of those suggestions were in any way the way the game played in ST1.

[Deepgift]

The the recent nerf to undercrewed ships, I see rakes as a lot more devastating now. 

 

And it makes under crewing much less viable i think that this change was a good idea.

[admin]

 

However, the changes and path of development you have taken the game has made the game less skilled.  While I'm not a developer, I'm sure there was a way to take the game in a direction that is historical yet skillful.

 

 

You always talk about some mythical changes that took skill away. Put them in a numbered list please - 7 will be enough.  Then we ll talk. Otherwise its looks like yelling at cloud

and stop talking about upgrades. By this time you everyone has all the upgrades (especially those who sail ships of the line or advanced frigates)

[Powderhorn]

2 ships modestly skilled ships will a;ways win against a solo ship as i said reload shocks are not for solo players but for small groups. 

If 2 ships can focus fire you are dead - way of life.

 

unless that 1 ship rakes them both turning the tide

 

So, two points here - When you described crew shock, you described it as when a group of ships all broadsided together to knock a crew into shock.  Right now, that isn't what's happening.  One ship using the broadside command will put the other ship into crew shock.  Two ships using the broadside command independently, ie - approx 30 - 45 seconds apart, will simply put the one vessel into crew shock two times.  This does not sound like the intent from what you had written earlier (six ships firing all at the same time at one target).  Honestly, having it set so that it requires multiple ships firing at once to put a crew into shock sounds like it may be a way to bring the balance toward "skill" from "numbers."  However, as currently implemented, it merely shifts the balance to "numbers."

 

The second point is that a good raking broadside seems to do remarkably little if it's not followed up by grape.  That could be the intent, however, I'm not sure that it is.  I know the Connie in my previous example was raked repeatedly with 32lb carronades and no stern left, and the Connie player merely shrugged and kept pounding my hull.  Hence why, I think, many of us are advocating for stern rakes to mean more.  Right now they are simply ignored.  I don't think they even cause leaks.  (Maybe they do, it's not common for me to get raked in such a manner )

[Guest raat]

1) Long reinforcement timers in OW make it easier for someone to be out of position on the open world.  While short escape timers make it easy for someone to escape while in battle and put an emphasis on continually hitting your target and/or just having bow chasers than your positioning in battle.  Ultimately, this has lead to the most griefing throughout testing.

 

2) Repairs - I thought testing went well and was a positive step when they were removed.  If all things are equal in terms of balance, repairs only exist as another means of escape if they are doing poorly in battle.  (repair then run and escape)

 

3) Turning in place - helps those who don't know how to manual sail tack or otherwise get unstuck in combat aiding players with less skill.  Also, ends up being used by some as a tactic or going full stop and just turning themselves into a floating battery.

 

4) The introduction of firing/aiming assistance in sectors removed a ton of skill from gunnery.

 

5) Modules/Upgrades - While I initially didn't have an opinion on this, over time it just feels unnecessary for the game.  It simply gives people who have a lot of time to grind an advantage and that advantage is in no way tied to skill.  It also has the consequence of creating imbalance for a particular play-style from time to time with balancing issues (i.e. boarding or speed...)

 

6) The drastic increase in hull HP led to much longer battles further giving less skilled players more time to escape battle.  And with no reason to surrender, you can find yourself wasting a hour fighting someone who then escapes because of the short escape timers (#1) and repairs on OW so you have to start all over (#2).  The increase to HP also made line fighting kind of a chore further reducing the effectiveness of one the main tactics that requires a lot of skill and coordination between players.

 

7) Multiple durabilities on ships allows for one to not worry about his/her own skill as much as how much time they can invest in grinding gold.  Reducing the overall skill of the player-base.  (though, admittedly not sure what can be done since everyone whines about loss as it is)

 

 

There's 7 issues that relate to the skill level of the player that have either been in game since ST1 and have not been addressed and/or have been introduced through OW testing.

[Puchu]

regarding Reload shock.

 

Its purpose is not to help in 2v1 

Its purpose is to help smaller side in 3v6 or 6v12

 

Purpose

In 2v4 or 3v6 or basically any other engagment where your side is at a disadvantage but you can gain advantage by focusing your fire properly

But you have to fulfill two conditions

• You sail close to each other preferably in a tight line
• You focus fire and shoot AT THE SAME TIME with your group members

If you are able to inflict significant % damage over broadside length (5 sec) - you will shock enemy crew by flying planks, splinter and deaths of comrades stopping their reload. 

It becomes important to shoot AT THE SAME TIME not spread over time. 

 

If you are fighting 2v4 and if your enemy is not organized you could theoretically keep 2 ships on constant reload shock (with the right positioning) 

It also makes lower calibers more dangerous (faster reload allows more  reload shocks)

 

Same with crew shock 

or with rigging

 

If that's the purpose of reload shock, then it shouldnt be possible to get reload shocked by a single ship hitting you. And certainly not by getting hit by an equally armed ship.

 

I was about to try the situation you described in port battles. Once i did it, i will report how it works.

[G'Kar Rah]

I am pretty sure, but could be wrong, that happened because of dispersion. Even when you fired at the hull, at close range some shots are going to go high and hit rigging and masts. If you get lucky, you hit the base of the mast even if you hit the hull. Or, when you are shooting at the hull, you hit the chains connecting the shrouds to the hull. If we had all this, then mast hp wouldn't have to be buffed, but because how easy it is to demast at range (because of accuracy) they added the mast buffs in( I think). Then there is the absolutely necessary reinforced masts for competitive pvp.

Also, is it me or is proper raking fire devestating enough? I've been losing and killing 100-200+ people on rakes. It is quite ridiculous. 1 proper take can essentially disable a Coni. A surprise can do this in 1 rake to a Coni. I can decrew a Bellona in 2-4 rakes in my Coni. I don't think it should be that easy.

 

 

The replacement of masts has historical evidence.  Many ships could "jury rig" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_rigging a mast together using spare parts or even replacing the main mast with the mizen mast.  

 

The HMS Victory also carried spare mast parts on the top deck.   https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/1kv54i/how_did_naval_sailing_ships_sail_after_having/

 

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/p/71484/717723.aspx

 

Replacement masts were generally much weaker than main original masts but could sail the ship back to port for replacements.

 

I suggest just adding to the emergency repair the ability to also raise a "replacement mast".  This should not be an instant repair but take several minutes to raise a new mast to only the first sail height allowing some use of a demisted ship that does not have to be completely helpless.  This ability could be used several times, but each time it is used a weaker and less effective main mast is raised.  This would still leave a ship severely crippled but not completely out of the fight.

[admin]

If that's the purpose of reload shock, then it shouldnt be possible to get reload shocked by a single ship hitting you. And certainly not by getting hit by an equally armed ship.

 

I was about to try the situation you described in port battles. Once i did it, i will report how it works.

 

right now it is possible to get it if you hit the enemy for approximately 8% of the overall armor in under 5 seconds. which translates to 15-17% of the broadside armor

[Powderhorn]

The recommendation we are both making, I think, is for that number to be a fair bit higher. 20% of overall, maybe?

[jodgi]

1) Long reinforcement timers in OW...

A lot of us believe in 1 min timers to make the OW hunting aspect skill based. This is, indeed, issue numero uno. They wish for us to discuss other things, but I guess "What the heart is filled with..."

 

2) Repairs...

3)Turning in place...

Minor issues, mostly fine the way things are. I don't think this is significantly relevant to skill.

 

4) The introduction of firing/aiming assistance in sectors removed a ton of skill from gunnery.

You're not wrong here, but I have a different perspective. This is skill in the same way brushing your teeth is a skill humans need to learn at some point. You can practise uncanny aiming skills vs. bots and still be beaten silly by a trained PVP player. I wouldn't even mind if we were given this kind of aiming:

I'm not saying we should get it, but all these mechanical things are not what decides a high level PVP match.

 

5) Modules/Upgrades

Those are still being worked on, I fully expect them to address the major issues still present.

 

6) The drastic increase in hull HP...

The top players will beat you (almost) without minding yours or their own HP bars. Focus fire is like one level above mouthbreathing and linefighting is just role-play, not particularly relevant to skill.

 

7) Durabilities

You know duras is one of my "favourite" subjects. It is, however, almost completely irrelevant to skill enabling. You love the idea of no duras so badly your method of reasoning is inductive.

You're one of the good guys, Raatha. You want PVP and 1 minute timers. That list wasn't all about skill, though.

[Laik]

 

right now it is possible to get it if you hit the enemy for approximately 8% of the overall armor in under 5 seconds. which translates to 15-17% of the broadside armor

And it still happens relatively often in a single combat even without double shot. You can also get it if you ram someone. You get it almost every time you hit a ship that is one class smaller (often from the bow or stern too). I don't think the odd chance of reload shocks helping out the outnumbered side is worth this trade-off. Also it really will help them while plenty of conditions are fullfiled - like enemy being  very incompetent and completely split and unable to regroup for a long time. And if you manage to split incompetent enemy from the larger force you don't really need reload shocks to make it count. More often than not it will help the larger force.

 

I am not totally against reload shocks (rigging and crew shocks are fine). I just don't think they are handled well the way they are. They shouldn't stop reload completely (so that it doesn't prevent someone who was 99% reloaded from shooting) but slow it down by like 75%. They should also be more difficult to score (at least requiring 2 ships vs 1).

Edited January 12, 2016 by Laik

[admin]

 

 

I am not totally against reload shocks (rigging and crew shocks are fine). I just don't think they are handled well the way they are. They shouldn't stop reload completely (so that it doesn't prevent someone who was 99% reloaded from shooting) but slow it down by like 75%. They should also be more difficult to score (at least requiring 2 ships vs 1).

 

 

99% reloaded still requires finishing ramming that ball into the cannon. if you are attending to wounded or coming back up from bracing you still need to finish reload.

[Laik]

And all the guncrews at the same time are tending to the wounded? Can they not take care of them 5 seconds later? I am talking from the gameplay perspective and I find it very annoying when my enemy reloads 2 seconds earlier than me and puts me on reload shocks 1 second before I can fire at him.

 

There are already plenty of liberties taken, necessary from gameplay perspective, when it comes to guncrews (like slowing down the reload with loss of crew instead of making less guns operational). So why not apply it like this here? Instead of simulating, say, half of the guncrews 'taking care of the wounded' just put a unified reload penalty, instead of stopping reload completely.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Laik

[Powderhorn]

I think 99% would either be finishing running out the gun or piercing/priming (allowing for potential differences in loading order), but the important takeaway here is really that reloading shock as described and reloading shock as implemented only have a nodding acquaintance.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Powderhorn

[maturin]

The last 1% of loading can be the most labor-intensive part, given that you are running out the heavy gun, elevating and traversing it. And if there are casualties all over the deck and crew in disarray, the gun while crush them when fired.

[Powderhorn]

I always saw the "elevating and traversing" as the fire-vectors narrowing, post-loading.  But I think we're really just arguing abstractions here.