How to make skill matter? - Suggestions

[PIerrick de Badas]

a one v3 in trico can't be win atm. The trinco has a good speed on top angle but decrease his speed really bad as far as you join 90°.

So the trinco can't kit the ships. I think the only viable tactic to win a 1v3 is to kit the shisp, dismat some or decrase sails of some to be abel to rageboard one and then leave the battle with one ship...

Ofc by kitting the sails you are downwind so you have to make an hard job to be able to board. Due of bad angle of trinco you will never be able to kit in a proper way.

 

Second idea is to go really close on a ship, harass him to sunk him and then flee with best angle. This is possible if you got a real good wind and if ennemy split themself.

To improve skill ont close range i would add, as say earlier in topic: a raking shot "chock" not allowing you to make anything during 10 sec (the officier place is the first to take damage and officer can't give orders, the ships keep is way as before. In battery, crew is disable and not able to reload due of chock".)

Decreasing rudder hp could be good to improve raking penality. Exept that, i don't see how to increase the skill matter.

I don't think  that a frigate op player can defeat me in consti (and i don't think i'm top OP in regard of some of you) but i would love to see it if it's possible. 1v3? let me joke...

[Puchu]

jodgi, interesting idea, might solve the problem that going for crew means you currently have to go for masts aswell.

 

The problem right now is as follows:

 

A skilled player can rake better than 2 lowskilled opponents. 

By raking, you mainly kill crew.

Crew damage currently only really matters in boarding combat.

To get into boarding combat, you have to kill masts aswell.

 

That means: To get a win by skillfull play you have to kill Mast+Crew, where the others have to kill half a hull each.

So to Balance it out: Killing mast+crew of 2 players needs to be roughly as fast as killing half a hull.

One way to achieve that would be Laiks suggestion to make ships sink from crewdamage. Then you only have to kill crew to sink and mastkills dont matter as much.

Another way might be the Masts extending below deck, so you hit masts and crew with the same shots, thus doing crew+mast-dps at the same time. 

Both approaches are also founded on history, which is allways a good thing.

 

 

Tatann, sry to say that, but most of those ideas are just horribly bad for gameplay since most of those things can be done by 2 ships muuuuuch more effectively. 

 

Edit: But all this discussion only matters if we have 1 min timers, since without them you will never have small fights like 1vs2 or 1vs3. (Unless we get a proper lobby to set up duels. PLEASE!)

[Kaaru62]

you already have alot of good features like crew shock, rigging damage, reload shock. I think adjusting recover times based on crew numbers,morale, and order setting (sail,gunnery,repair) would help.

 

one thing that I have never really cared for is the enemy information bar, I think it gives out too much information. in virtually every encounter I use the status indicator to see what side has the most damage so I can keep pressure on it, or to know when the rear armor is down so I can start graping, or know how many crew there is so I know when its ok to board. this is all information I should not be able to tell by looking through a telescope.

 

the only other thing I can think of would be crew fatigue, those of us that are experienced in manual sail control are constantly turning our sails. that equates to a lot of yanking on ropes for the crew. I feel people like myself that do a lot of close quarters fighting with a lot of sail control should see the sail crew get tired over time. recovery would come from moving away from the close quarters fighting to give crew a rest. all of this would be effected by crew status (numbers, shock, morale )

 

either way a 1v3 should not be easily won, no matter the skill level.

[Powderhorn]

Just came out of a 1v2, my Trinc v. a Belle Poule (with Snow and Lynx) and a Connie.  The Connie came in around the 4 minute mark, and of course drastically changed the map.  Of course, being testing, I wanted to see how this would play out.  First I tried sailing away, as the Connie started downwind of me.  Pointed 90 off the wind and waited to see what happened.  No dice, as the (mediums, I believe?) were able to tag my sails.  After a broadside or two of this, knowing that that situation wouldn't change, I turned and fought.

 

Loaded out with 32lb carronades, I thought I might at least knock the hulls down a bit.  Granted, mine is made out of fir, and that proved non-beneficial.  Ultimately attempted to resolve it in a ram/boarding, however the Connie just stayed in "Brace" mode and my attacks (the appropriate counter to Brace) 250 v. 400 were causing me more deaths than it was him.  Ultimately disengaged and allowed myself to sink.

 

Things noted:

 

-Reloading shock starts to feel rather magical, particularly when you're catching it from both sides.  A lot of times you're sitting there just eating two broadsides from each for every one you can dish out because of the debuff.  If you want 1v3 to win, you'll have to get rid of reloading shock.

-Stern raking is not a viable tactic.  Though I repeatedly outsailed the Connie, raking it at about 50 - 100m with 32lb carronades, the Connie just kind of ignored it.  It did nothing to him after the stern was gone except knock a few crew on the head, and every once in a while would give him a rudder debuff.  Recommendation 1:  Rudder damage needs to not be a debuff, and not be something automatically repaired.  Either it should cost a repair, or need to be done out of combat.  Recommendation 2:  More dismounted guns.  Recommendation 3:  Possible to sink via stern and bow damage.

-Boarding, even against someone that seemingly walked away from the computer, became non-viable due to current advantages to both the defender and the crew size.  I understand where the reasoning behind them comes from, but if a person essentially walks away from the computer, it should perhaps not be an automatic win.  Recommendation:  "Brace" deals no kills.

 

And of course, I won't mention that thing that we have another thread for

[Laik]

you already have alot of good features like crew shock, rigging damage, reload shock.

Allow me to chuckle on this one.

 

While crew shock is useful and rigging shock pretty much non-factor, reload shock is a horrible, horrible feature. It gives even more advantage to the bigger ship and the bigger force (contrary to it's original purpose). A bigger ship can consitentlyl reload-shock his opponent from the stern or the front or get reload shocks with top deck only (when double get's reintroduced). Reload shocks not only stop reloading completely, even if it was 1 second away, it also does this for all sides, regardless of which one was hit. It's implementation of damage to planking + rng is also bad. I've had reload shocks happen to me by ramming another ship with my bow.

 

Reload shock should be ditched completely while crew shock can remain, since raking isn't that effective anyway, so that's at least some reason to go for it.

[Mr. Doran]

Reload shock should be ditched completely while crew shock can remain, since raking isn't that effective anyway, so that's at least some reason to go for it.

[Puchu]

Sry mispost, didnt work.

 

Doran, i disagree with your disagreeing

[jodgi]

<Frantically puts on Barry White while laying out rose petals on the floor. Prepares a mug of pubbie tears for Doran and a shot of vodka for Puchu. I take some stolen Sobril that I chase down with half a bottle of whisky while chanting "Give peace a chance", which gets awkward due to Barry White. I run aimlessly around. Pass out>

This is my life now.

[Puchu]

Jodgi, i really like your idea of mast-hitboxes extending into the hull. Could be really good.

 

While talking with laik about different ideas we came up with the following idea:

 

In Trafalgar the Victory was sailing straight into the line of the frensh, but was not demasted. If you would concentrate fire in NA, you can ofc completely demast a ship before it reaches your line. Also in small engagements, you can demast a ship from range and only engage once you have your enemy demasted. That's actually one of the most common strategies for small engagements.

 

Being completely demasted from range leaves the victim with no option but to look and quitely accept his fate. He cannot do anything, because not only he cant sail away, he also basically cant turn, and no skill in using manual sails will help him maneuver. He's a sitting duck, watching his slow and painfull death. 

 

If you look at the painting from trafalgar you can see something interesting:

 

 

Most of the masts of the ships in front are totally messed up. But only few of them are completely gone. Most of them still have their bottom section up. Many ppl here can explain why that is better than i ever could. We were thinking how you could replicate that in the game. Because right now the mast is either up, or it's gone. There is nothing in between atm. (although the hitboxes and so on are there). If you had your bottom section still up, you would still be able to maneuver. You would still be able to use manual sails, a skilled player would still be able to use his skill, even if he's in a bad spot, and you could still actually do something.

 

The idea is to implement a mast repair. That mast repair could be called "improvised masts" and it would repair only the bottom section of missing masts. It could even be a cooldown repair.

 

Let's say, that every 20 minutes you could repair the bottom section of your mast, if it is missing. Like that you could repair up to an absolute maximum of 30% sail mass every 20 minutes, but ONLY if your masts have been shot down. Using that repair with only one dead mast would maybe bring back around 10% sails. And using this with all masts up, would actually do nothing. This could also be just an added feature to the "emergency repair" that we already have.

 

This would make it so that demasting is still viable, but a demasted captain would still be able to do something, he would still be able to somewhat maneuver, he would still be able to somewhat use manual sails, he would not just be doomed to sit there and watch. 

Of course you could still shoot down those improvised masts aswell, to make the ship completely unmaneuverable. But it would take very much dedication to do that. 

With 3 improvised masts you would still be easily boardable, the attacker could still stay out of your arcs and you still would get 2:1ed a lot. But you would also still be able to do something and actively maneuver and participate in the fight. I think it would be good to try that out. 

 

The goal of this whole system is to still have gameplay when getting demasted.

 

What do you think of "improvised masts"?

[maturin]

 

We were thinking how you could replicate that in the game. Because right now the mast is either up, or it's gone. There is nothing in between atm. (although the hitboxes and so on are there). If you had your bottom section still up, you would still be able to maneuver. You would still be able to use manual sails, a skilled player would still be able to use his skill, even if he's in a bad spot, and you could still actually do something.

I think I've been posting this for about a year now:

1. Buff armor class of lower masts so that you need very high velocity shot to damage them (from the main deck guns of comparable ships)
2. Increase probability of ricochet
3. Broadside damage over 20-30% drastically reduces the armor class or max HP of lower masts (representing damage to chainplates and channels)
4. Same goes for sail damage to foresail, mainsail and spanker (representing damage to shrouds)

If you tuned it this way, your only chance of knocking down Nelson's masts would be with your 32-pdrs at relatively short range. OR if you go and hammer his broadsides first OR if you pour raking fire (not double shot or carronades) into his stern.

 

 

 

Regarding reloading shock, I long ago proposed a less drastic form of shock. Basically, only 5 seconds of actual frozen reloading, but 10-15 seconds where you can't traverse your guns, and where your arcs wouldn't converge. I think that would communicate the havoc taking place on the gundeck, but the player wouldn't be robbed of the broadside. He would just have to struggle to make it effective, possibly by aiming with the ship instead of the mouse. I also proposed that shock should take place most often with grapeshot* and raking fire. More importantly, a little ship with poor convergence and untraversed guns can still hit a large ship at close range. The large ship, on the other, will see much of its shot wasted if it can't aim properly at the smaller target.

 

*Now that would be a skill thing right there. Imagine deliberately leading with a broadside of grape to shock an opponent, then going 2:1 with ball.

[Reki]

There has to be more than one valid tactic in the game.

Well said. Dog-style is boring and i hate them all, even on solid ground

 

p.s. In vanila skill was somewhere between accurate shooting, broadside and heel management. But close quarters ruin it ^^

[Mr. Doran]

Jodgi, i really like your idea of mast-hitboxes extending into the hull. Could be really good.

 

While talking with laik about different ideas we came up with the following idea:

 

In Trafalgar the Victory was sailing straight into the line of the frensh, but was not demasted. If you would concentrate fire in NA, you can ofc completely demast a ship before it reaches your line. Also in small engagements, you can demast a ship from range and only engage once you have your enemy demasted. That's actually one of the most common strategies for small engagements.

 

Being completely demasted from range leaves the victim with no option but to look and quitely accept his fate. He cannot do anything, because not only he cant sail away, he also basically cant turn, and no skill in using manual sails will help him maneuver. He's a sitting duck, watching his slow and painfull death. 

 

If you look at the painting from trafalgar you can see something interesting:

 

 

Most of the masts of the ships in front are totally messed up. But only few of them are completely gone. Most of them still have their bottom section up. Many ppl here can explain why that is better than i ever could. We were thinking how you could replicate that in the game. Because right now the mast is either up, or it's gone. There is nothing in between atm. (although the hitboxes and so on are there). If you had your bottom section still up, you would still be able to maneuver. You would still be able to use manual sails, a skilled player would still be able to use his skill, even if he's in a bad spot, and you could still actually do something.

 

The idea is to implement a mast repair. That mast repair could be called "improvised masts" and it would repair only the bottom section of missing masts. It could even be a cooldown repair.

 

Let's say, that every 20 minutes you could repair the bottom section of your mast, if it is missing. Like that you could repair up to an absolute maximum of 30% sail mass every 20 minutes, but ONLY if your masts have been shot down. Using that repair with only one dead mast would maybe bring back around 10% sails. And using this with all masts up, would actually do nothing. This could also be just an added feature to the "emergency repair" that we already have.

 

This would make it so that demasting is still viable, but a demasted captain would still be able to do something, he would still be able to somewhat maneuver, he would still be able to somewhat use manual sails, he would not just be doomed to sit there and watch. 

Of course you could still shoot down those improvised masts aswell, to make the ship completely unmaneuverable. But it would take very much dedication to do that. 

With 3 improvised masts you would still be easily boardable, the attacker could still stay out of your arcs and you still would get 2:1ed a lot. But you would also still be able to do something and actively maneuver and participate in the fight. I think it would be good to try that out. 

 

The goal of this whole system is to still have gameplay when getting demasted.

 

What do you think of "improvised masts"?

 

I thought the name of the thread was how to make skill matter not how to provide a massive safety cushion bellow everyone. We've been down a similar road with this CD repair shit and it just adds a special little annoyance to combat at all levels. The issue should not be about "keeping people in the fight" but decreasing the amount of damage you can do to any mast section from 1.3 kilometers away. Getting demasted should be a real consequence that leaves you being really crippled. If anything as mentioned before the top priority regarding mast HP or mast HP mechanics should be simply nerfing the reinforced mast modules maximum from 100% to 40% at maximum; no one on God's greens earth should be able to run around with two sets of masts on...

[verseaux]

Hello,

Some ideas to improve a bit the skill :

Make a bit more differences beetween ships, we use to have fast frigates to hunt or run away, now it seems like every ship is almost the same and that only number of canons and powerfire matters.

Gameplay should be focus on frigates and not only on large PB.

Implement a system of moral during battle and not only during boarding.

So far the only way to win is to sink it or to board the ennemy, we need to find solution to force him to strike white flag before he sunk or lost all of his crew.

MOral during battle could be a solution, with a slowly recovery of it if you avoid the fight or run for a while.

Put the force of the wind during battle to lost some masts if they are too damaged or wind is too strong.

It will force us to managing sails and to really know our ship.

For that we should have some other weather like tempest etc.

And to help a bit the player, we could have a average pourcentage of chance of destroying our mast if we still continue to wear too many sails.

Or losing some percent of sail and not directly the entire mast.

Edited January 11, 2016 by verseaux

[Deepgift]

I thought the name of the thread was how to make skill matter not how to provide a massive safety cushion bellow everyone. We've been down a similar road with this CD repair shit and it just adds a special little annoyance to combat at all levels. The issue should not be about "keeping people in the fight" but decreasing the amount of damage you can do to any mast section from 1.3 kilometers away. Getting demasted should be a real consequence that leaves you being really crippled. If anything as mentioned before the top priority regarding mast HP or mast HP mechanics should be simply nerfing the reinforced mast modules maximum from 100% to 40% at maximum; no one on God's greens earth should be able to run around with two sets of masts on...

Time for some maths the basic cutter has a base mast hp of the following

Bot 350

mid 250

top 100

 

for a total of 700hp with mastercraft mods you can raise that to 1400 and if I understand mechanics properly the sail repair is 40% with golden toolbox we can get that up to 50%

so that a effective potential hp of 2100 hp on a base mod that should have 700hp

Thats a lot of hp for a little cutter masts But theirs a good chance my numbers are off I would really like to know

[Ellis]

Time for some maths the basic cutter has a base mast hp of the following

Bot 350

mid 250

top 100

 

for a total of 700hp with mastercraft mods you can raise that to 1400 and if I understand mechanics properly the sail repair is 40% with golden toolbox we can get that up to 50%

so that a effective potential hp of 2100 hp on a base mod that should have 700hp

Thats a lot of hp for a little cutter masts But theirs a good chance my numbers are off I would really like to know

The current sail repair doesn't repair damaged masts, only sails and those masts which have fallen.

[Deepgift]

The current sail repair doesn't repair damaged masts, only sails and those masts which have fallen.

Humm but ive used sail repair and it replaces masts, or am I understanding something wrong?

[jodgi]

Make a bit more differences beetween ships, we use to have fast frigates to hunt or run away, now it seems like every ship is almost the same and that only number of canons and powerfire matters.

You have been sleeping in class!

Frigates were buffed in 9.3.

 

...but decreasing the amount of damage you can do to any mast section from 1.3 kilometers away...

Wouldn't maturin's suggestion help?

 

I think I've been posting this for about a year now:

• Buff armor class of lower masts so that you need very high velocity shot to damage them (from the main deck guns of comparable ships)
• Increase probability of ricochet
• Broadside damage over 20-30% drastically reduces the armor class or max HP of lower masts (representing damage to chainplates and channels)
• Same goes for sail damage to foresail, mainsail and spanker (representing damage to shrouds)

If you tuned it this way, your only chance of knocking down Nelson's masts would be with your 32-pdrs at relatively short range. OR if you go and hammer his broadsides first OR if you pour raking fire (not double shot or carronades) into his stern.

...no one on God's greens earth should be able to run around with two sets of masts on...

 

I lol'd.

Edited January 11, 2016 by jodgi

[Ellis]

Humm but ive used sail repair and it replaces masts, or am I understanding something wrong?

It will replace masts yes. I'm just saying that currently the sail repair will not fix any damage done to masts which are still standing. For example if i were to shoot someone's masts to the point where 1 more shot will take it down, and he uses his sail repair, after is repair is finished it will still only take 1 shot to take the masts down. i'm just making sure we all understand the mechanic  .

[Mr. Doran]

Time for some maths the basic cutter has a base mast hp of the following

Bot 350

mid 250

top 100

 

for a total of 700hp with mastercraft mods you can raise that to 1400 and if I understand mechanics properly the sail repair is 40% with golden toolbox we can get that up to 50%

so that a effective potential hp of 2100 hp on a base mod that should have 700hp

Thats a lot of hp for a little cutter masts But theirs a good chance my numbers are off I would really like to know

 

HP arithmetic is not necessary. All you need to know is 18 hits is unreasonable.  

 

And to the others the rep does indeed repair mast HP.

[Deepgift]

It will replace masts yes. I'm just saying that currently the sail repair will not fix any damage done to masts which are still standing. For example if i were to shoot someone's masts to the point where 1 more shot will take it down, and he uses his sail repair, after is repair is finished it will still only take 1 shot to take the masts down. i'm just making sure we all understand the mechanic  .

Understood 1400 hp is still alot XD

[Deepgift]

But his masts still gain 40% of the hp right over the timer?

 

I'm probably understanding this wrong but Ellis and doran it sounds like what your saying is conflicted,

 

so you just wait till your near 0% then get back up to 40-50% to get your guns back in the fight, that still is a increase of potential mast hp above 1400 for the cutter example

Edited January 11, 2016 by Deepgift

[Puchu]

Doran, it's about the fact that, in a demast war, the side with 2 players will allways outdps the side with 1 player. And once you are demasted completely, no skill in the whole world will help you. 

[Mr. Doran]

Doran, it's about the fact that, in a demast war, the side with 2 players will allways outdps the side with 1 player. And once you are demasted completely, no skill in the whole world will help you. 

 

The only way to win a 2v1 against two non-totally-incompetence players is not to play. The root of the issue in "skill" is once again misguided once you throw the weight of numbers into the equation. Quit trying to figure out how to win in these fictional 2v1 scenarios and how to avoid them. 

[Deepgift]

The only way to win a 2v1 against two non-totally-incompetence players is not to play. The root of the issue in "skill" is once again misguided once you throw the weight of numbers into the equation. Quit trying to figure out how to win in these fictional 2v1 scenarios and how to avoid them. 

If your take 100%extra mast damage that 100% extra shots that for the most part wont be going in your hull

 

I can see how having 100%extra masts may help a player gain an advantage ie the more skillful over less, while being outnumbred

Edited January 11, 2016 by Deepgift

[Puchu]

We already know how to avoid them: 1 Minute timers

 

Admin asked a question, we're trying to answer it by giving ideas.