small ship turning

[admin]

Would such turn be possible on the small ship like cutter? with the right sail management and experienced crew?

 

[con20or]

I'm only guessing but probably not.

 

Thats a high performance yacht made of modern composites, hull and sail and 200 extra years of simulations, racing and modelling going into it's design... A cutter ingame would be made of wood with canvas sails.

 

It also seems to have no draft at below the waterline - a cutter would have storage, places to sleep, weapons?

[xcorps]

I agree with con20or. 

 

For instance the Nina was 65 ft long with an 18ft beam and a draft of 7ft.  I'd be surprised (very surprised) if it was capable of turning fully about with optimal winds and crew in less than 4-5 times it's own length.

A racing yacht turning in it's own water is a technological innovation.  That video is not something I would have believed from a conversation.

 

Even the cargo boats I work on (240'-280' iron hull engine driven) that are designed for manuevering with multiple slewing thrusters and twin screws have difficult turning inside their own length.

[Storm Hunter]

I think it would be possible, but a little slower, You don't want crazy drifting like that lol... this will be also possible on big ships if anchor was dropped...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvAREcGShhE

 

last seconds...

[slik]

last seconds...

I don't think Pirates of the Caribbean Sea can be used as source of such information. If I remember correct - Patrick O'Brien has mentioned something similar to this maneuver in one of his books, but I still can't find it. 

[Captain Bacon]

I don't think Pirates of the Caribbean Sea can be used as source of such information. If I remember correct - Patrick O'Brien has mentioned something similar to this maneuver in one of his books, but I still can't find it. 

 For once something in a Disney movie was real... The maneuver is called club-hauling and involves dropping one anchor at high speed to turn rapidly.  You risk damaging the ship in the process, tho, and lose the anchor that was dropped.

[Marquiz]

Anchor drag manover was possible on sail ship of era. But only on small ships like cutters ,even brig size vessel is to big to make such turn in small distance. Anchors should "help" with turn but there be a lot loss of speed too.  We must remeber that there is inercia on water, drift ,so mostly anchors was used to stop drift and ships move not for tide turns.

[adambomb]

You would usually lose your anchor I would think, even on the par say smaller ships. I know just in a small power boat you would lose your anchor if you didn't stop real quick.

[Digby]

Absolutely not! That's a modern racing boat. A cutter turn would require several hull lengths and it could never do a 180 due to the inability to sail as close to the wind as a modern racing boat.

 

 

I should think these are using diesel engines as well!

 

 

At 2:16 a good idea of how minimal wakes are.

 

[Barberouge]

In reality it couldn't, but in game it could if the cutter was the smallest ship. Depends on the compromise between realism and gameplay.

[Digby]

I think the dev is asking if its a gameplay element players would want. I honestly don't think its either practical in reality or desireable in game play.

[Adair]

More than once you've got reports of ships that could 'turn within their own length'. But, these were never frigates. Smaller ships only.

[admin]

we asked this just to check if it is possible on smaller ships in that era.. currently in our test builds the ships are NOT turning in such a way))

[Digby]

That's fine, they shouldn't! Your sailing model is working in that regard.

[Flip]

Definitely shouldn't be able to do that, nor could they probly.

[Barberouge]

I found this: http://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol13/tnm_13_4_29-39.pdf

 

It seems "there are examples of exceptional ships, such as the Unicorn class of 28-gun frigates from 1747 which were renowned for being able to tack in their own length" (p35).

 

And "the very best ships, such as the Niger class of 32-gun frigates from 1757, would only wear in four times the ship's length" (p38).

[BullpupBarrie]

Thanks for the link, that was a very interesting read.

[Yankee jack]

Greetings from a very old salt,

To answer the question:

Not even close!   17th and 18th century ships large and small were boxy and heavy to the extreme. Especially warships.  It required a thick and strong hull to take the punishment they would be subject to in their lifetime.  Even merchant ships were heavy.  After all they were work horses not race horses!  Sloops  were quicker than square riggers (which were really slow) but no ship of that time can be compared at all to today's fast racing or cruising boats.

 

[meatpukk]

this is not possible with the hull of 18th century cutters or any 18 century boats at all, as far as i know. not even close.
the reason modern boats can do this is because of the flat hull profile with a bolt on straight fin keel, weight and also where the rig type. theese boats are fractional rigged, which means you can use the torque from the main to doo some pretty incredible manouvers. long keeled boats have a tendency to broach instead especially if they are masthead. if you ignore the keel, the draft of these boats are maybe 20-30cm? depending on size ofc.

the hull profile of a modern race yacht: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--7lr3UFxYDE/UN7Bd8K98yI/AAAAAAAAA-0/ei7g3D4VjWA/s1600/2Wild+Oats+XIlines.jpg

this is what we call a cutter here in norway, it refers to the type of hull, not rigging anymore. "modern" cutters made in the start of the 20th century look like this. but they are way sleeeker in their hull profile than the old 17th century cutters. especially the naval ones

 

as far as i know ye olde cutters are just a rig type so the hull shape will be variable. but its not untill the 19th century clipper type you get the more sleek fast hulls anyways.

this is an old cutter. http://vallejogallery.com/objects/Full%20Models/NERO/1000%20dpi%20Profile.jpg
just look at the hull on that thing, and the draft

with a tiny cutter like this one you cant even turn really good, but its probably as close as you get.


check out some 12m class race yacht videos on youtube and compare it with OP. those are longkeeled yachts and the handling is completely different. and much better than 18th century boats too.
so basically the combination of a mast in the forward part of the boat. the relatively deep draft and high weight makes the cutters bad turners. at least on small 2 masted fore anf aft rigged ships you can use the sails more to help with turning.
having sailed similar boats that i linked here i can say that the difference in turning is huge. its like comparing a gocart with a 18wheeler truck. the worst turner of all the boats ive sailed was a colin archer, early 20th century rescue cutter. but these are specifically designed to work safely in heavy weather, so not really a good example. http://home.online.no/~jeppejul/ColinArchersForSale-filer/sailing640x.jpg.

the best turning boats of the period were probably tiny clinkerbuilt boats. http://www87.pair.com/wbrf/www.woodenboatrescue.org/oselver%25201.jpg theese might mach the turning speed and radius of modern yachts.
not something you would equip with 24 pounders though

[maturin]

I found this: http://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol13/tnm_13_4_29-39.pdf

It seems "there are examples of exceptional ships, such as the Unicorn class of 28-gun frigates from 1747 which were renowned for being able to tack in their own length" (p35).

And "the very best ships, such as the Niger class of 32-gun frigates from 1757, would only wear in four times the ship's length" (p38).

And bear in mind that tacking and wearing result in the sharpest possible turn. If you are sailing along at ten knots and simply turn the wheel, you will require far more than four shiplengths of room.

[Taki1980]

I don't think Pirates of the Caribbean Sea can be used as source of such information. If I remember correct - Patrick O'Brien has mentioned something similar to this maneuver in one of his books, but I still can't find it. 

 

I read four Books now and there it was somewhere. When he was in interims command of that Frigate with that great Sailing Crew? I cant recall right, but he said that real good crews could turn on 2 Times their own lenght. Not that its a reference for anyone. Just an anektode that i recall (and definatly not sure if i recall that right)

[Yankee jack]

Square riggers and Ship turning and maneuvers.

 

There are always "exceptional" ships.  John Paul Jones was a (real life) example of an "exceptional" skipper and crew.

 

The average was considerably less skilled.  I have seen time estimates for tacking of up to 20 minutes for a green crew.  A badly handled ship could lose hundreds of yards in sternway if she were stuck "in irons" while going about.  In fact, one of the standard procedures for tacking was to: head to wind, gather sternway, shift the rudder, and as the ship slides off the wind on the new tack, "mainsail haul" and off you go.  

sternway, stuck in irons, battle damage and crew losses could have significant impact.  For example:  How do you come about if you lose the mizzen mast?  With the unbalanced press of sail forward, It would be very difficult to bring her head to wind.  Conversely, if the foremast goes, there is no way to get her head down to wear ship.  Not modeled in the game.

 

In reality, these actions take much longer and are much more complicated evolutions than in the game.  I would very much like to see more of that in the game.  But, the developers have to balance playability with reality to sell their product.  A constant battle with game design.

 

Now, to get my key and get out on the water!!

[maturin]

 

Conversely, if the foremast goes, there is no way to get her head down to wear ship.  Not modeled in the game.

Actually, it is modeled. The settings just aren't tweaked to make enough of a difference. And autoskipper can fix most of it.