On Premium Ships and "Pay to Win"

[Grim DeGrim]

No disrespect but not everyone values their money that way.

True some do not. But over a 3 year period...?

Many don't have the time to do it any other way.

I've nothing but respect for someone that can grind out tanks & levels hours on end. Good for them but my wife would kill me for that level of time investment, lol

Edited April 6, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Magnum]

I still think a TAX is the answer, or even multiple taxes.

 

For example: let's say the dev's are playing the part of King George - now suppose some econ players want to supply cannon balls to the Royal Navy by investing in iron ore and a foundry.

 

Now suppose they have to do three things first: 1) explore and claim a deposit of iron ore 2) buy a foundry from another player (or seeded by dev's) 3) pay a tax on the land in Portsmouth to place the foundry.

 

The tax could be a small amount of real money.

 

There is even room for an ongoing tax on EACH load of cannon balls sold to the Admiralty.

 

As well as a tax on teleporting and a tax on each "escort" by merchant ships.

 

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And if YOU don't want to pay the tax - just go sailing - don't become an arms merchant!

Edited April 6, 2015 by ampaholic

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Nickle and diming players for every little action in game will not make for a successful game.

[Purple]

I still think a TAX is the answer, or even multiple taxes.

 

For example: let's say the dev's are playing the part of King George - now suppose some econ players want to supply cannon balls to the Royal Navy by investing in iron ore and a foundry.

 

Now suppose they have to do three things first: 1) explore and claim a deposit of iron ore 2) buy a foundry from another player (or seeded by dev's) 3) pay a tax on the land in Portsmouth to place the foundry.

 

The tax could be a small amount of real money.

 

There is even room for an ongoing tax on EACH load of cannon balls sold to the Admiralty.

 

As well as a tax on teleporting and a tax on each "escort" by merchant ships.

 

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And if YOU don't want to pay the tax - just go sailing - don't become an arms merchant!

 

People would hate that. if there was a tax as you were saying then it would put a portion of the game behind a paywall. the way to laid it out you would have to spend real money if you wanted to produce anything even if it is pennies.

 

Their current plan will work well for this game.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Purple

[Magnum]

Well, of course paying taxes would be pretty immersive - perhaps making it too much like real life.

 

I too enjoy some "escape" while playing the game = no boss, no speeding tickets, no train rides to work, no 9 to 5, no TAXES - just "sink, you scoundrel" and "oh no, he got me"!

 

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If the taxes were only for certain "shortcuts" that could be avoided it wouldn't be a burden to most players - they could just choose not to take those shortcuts.

Edited April 6, 2015 by ampaholic

[Magnum]

Nickle and diming players for every little action in game will not make for a successful game.

 

I don't think "every little action" is what I was after - just certain specific ones.

 

And no money for the dev's will not make for a successful game as well.

Edited April 6, 2015 by ampaholic

[Austrum]

No disrespect but not everyone values their money that way.

 

Your exactly right and that is why F2P games offer players a choice.  If you don't find the premium content to be of value to you, you don't have to buy premium content.  However a lot of us do find the premium content valuable and treat it just like spending money going to movie and buying $5 sodas and popcorn, paying for premium channels like HBO or Showtime or even taking a vacation.  It is how we chose to entertain ourselves. 

 

The thing is, if the free player chooses not to buy premium content that is their choice so there is absolutely nothing for the free player to complain about.  It isn't even about the "have" and "have nots" because again it is the free players choice to be a "have not" especially in a MMO which is about the cheapest form of entertainment you can have access to.  I mean I spent about $330 on Mechwarrior Online last year, that works out to about $27.50 per month or not much more than the price of going to a movie with popcorn and a soda.  That isn't alot of money guys and it was about $100 more than I usually spend on a game over a year.  That is less than one dollar a day.  That being the case, no one except maybe someone reliant on their parents for entertainment expenses, should having an issue with paying for premium content if they want to.

 

Point is, I choose to spend money and my money is what the devs will be using to give the game not only alive but improving.  No player, not even a free player should be begrudging me because I spend money on the game instead of movie or a book or whatever else they might find more important, that I do not.  What I do benefits them just as sure as it benefits me. 

[TheJRT]

I still think a TAX is the answer, or even multiple taxes.

 

For example: let's say the dev's are playing the part of King George - now suppose some econ players want to supply cannon balls to the Royal Navy by investing in iron ore and a foundry.

 

Now suppose they have to do three things first: 1) explore and claim a deposit of iron ore 2) buy a foundry from another player (or seeded by dev's) 3) pay a tax on the land in Portsmouth to place the foundry.

 

The tax could be a small amount of real money.

 

There is even room for an ongoing tax on EACH load of cannon balls sold to the Admiralty.

 

As well as a tax on teleporting and a tax on each "escort" by merchant ships.

 

------

 

And if YOU don't want to pay the tax - just go sailing - don't become an arms merchant!

 

Ehhh.. no offence but I wouldn't play a game like this, Id rather buy something such as a premium ship once in a while rather than having to pay for various little things, plus, as you proposed, a few cents wouldnt realyl add up to a lot...

 

Also, like this you would have some players that are able to pay leading the economy, being merchants, gunsmiths, and so on, while everybody else would be there only sailing... THIS would really be pay-to-win... I doubt the devs want this.

 

With the current proposed model, pay once and play forever, it will be much more fair. With premium ships, which are not an advantage over normal ships the devs can have a fairly steady income to mantain the servers and updates rolling. Premium ships are a way to "skip the grind" rather than have an advantage over others.

 

 

JRT

[Austrum]

Nickle and diming players for every little action in game will not make for a successful game.

 

Agree here as well.  Ideally, you shouldn't have to buy a thing to play the game and this includes things like character slots, bank slots, increased money caps, inventory slots, keys to open lock boxes that have things not really accessible in game, etc.  I think it is BS that Neverwinter, for example, requires me to spend real money to buy these sort of things.  Mounts however, costumes, companions, things that confer no real long-term game play advantage, those I agree with.  

 

To put it into perspective.  Spending $25 to buy Frigate that is virtually identical to a Surprise, but has unlimited durability and lower repair cost has zero effect on sailing around and engaging in fights. Sure as long as I am using that ship, my overhead is less so it will make it a bit easier to acquire wealth but that is convenience only because I will still have to save up in game currency to buy supplies, land, resources or own any other ship in the game, ships which are still subject to the 5 durability.  Basically it gives me only a small overall boost.  Same goes with spending $5 for custom sail graphics, a different flag or maybe a paint job.  Those do absolutely nothing to change overall game play.

 

Now honestly, I was everything for nothing as well, but not at the expense of an ever improving and expanding game.  If the devs don't have constant income, then the servers don't run and no new updates happen and there is no new ships added and basically the game dies.  I would rather buy a $50 ship now and again and have a fun game to play than not have that game to play.  More people need to have this attitude.

[Magnum]

Agree here as well.  Ideally, you shouldn't have to buy a thing to play the game and this includes things like character slots, bank slots, increased money caps, inventory slots, keys to open lock boxes that have things not really accessible in game, etc.  I think it is BS that Neverwinter, for example, requires me to spend real money to buy these sort of things.  Mounts however, costumes, companions, things that confer no real long-term game play advantage, those I agree with.  

 

To put it into perspective.  Spending $25 to buy Frigate that is virtually identical to a Surprise, but has unlimited durability and lower repair cost has zero effect on sailing around and engaging in fights. Sure as long as I am using that ship, my overhead is less so it will make it a bit easier to acquire wealth but that is convenience only because I will still have to save up in game currency to buy supplies, land, resources or own any other ship in the game, ships which are still subject to the 5 durability.  Basically it gives me only a small overall boost.  Same goes with spending $5 for custom sail graphics, a different flag or maybe a paint job.  Those do absolutely nothing to change overall game play.

 

Now honestly, I was everything for nothing as well, but not at the expense of an ever improving and expanding game.  If the devs don't have constant income, then the servers don't run and no new updates happen and there is no new ships added and basically the game dies.  I would rather buy a $50 ship now and again and have a fun game to play than not have that game to play.  More people need to have this attitude.

 

I agree the dev's need a source of income in real money to continue development.

 

While everyone would prefer to pay nothing more (than their $40) to play forever and to have just as good of ships and merchant "things" as any other player.

 

But ... I really don't understand why you are willing to drop $50 for a ship now and then - but not have a nickel automatically deducted every time you "teleport"? Or allow the crown to "charge" a merchant for the boon of building a cannonball foundry right next to the navy port - when they could build it for free 20 miles away.

 

Or once a month requiring a $2 tax on each ship moored in their port.

 

The King always found a way to get money IRL .....

 

But, as the game progresses some will have more "time" to invest in the game, some only have "money" - since we have established both should be equal - perhaps the "time" players could work for the Crown to pay their tax - while the "Money" could just pay them?

Edited April 6, 2015 by ampaholic

[Challenger]

What kind of a grind will there be? What exactly will the premium ships do to alleviate the grind?

[Similon]

I could buy a premium ship if it was on par with regular ones. If it is weaker than built ship, what is the point of the ship then? Still it should not be stronger than same class regular ships..

Some think it's pay to win when you can buy something which you can have fun with a bit faster.

I get the feeling I'll be buying ships if they're pretty. From there, I'll make it work.

 

If you pay real money for a ship that is flat-out superior, and can not be attained in any way other than paying money, that is pretty much the definition of Pay to Win, and that is a problem. Why is it a problem? Because it's a cheap, extortionate tactic that no moral games company would consider. You're essentially saying you have to spend more money if you want to actually compete.

 

As somebody who is fairly certain they will be buying premium ships, I'd say ideally they should be:

1. A cosmetic overhaul (not just retextured).

   Enough to make them distinctly a different ship, and not just "Another identical Leda-Class"

2. Any stat difference should make sense, and not be a flat upgrade.

   In this game, that's harder to work out, since the ships are mostly based on actual ships, with a statline to reflect the actual ships real life performance. But basically not just a clone with +10% armour & speed or something. Something that makes sense, like it's over-gunned, therefore less maneuverable. (Although tha should be down to load-out, not ship) I think you'll all get what I mean

3. Available!

   If I spend £20 on a ship, I want to be able to use the damn thing! Yes, I'm aware they've already confirmed you will, but I'm curious about the how. I'm guessing it won't just be infinite durabilities. So will it be Throwing resources to refill durabilities? Will it be "you can rebuild the ship once you run out, at an ingame cost"? Whatever it has, it should be something where you won't find yourself unable to use content you paid for. On that note:

4. Usable!

   Somebody above mentioned that you'd be able to buy a first rate, but you wouldn't be able to get a large enough crew if you weren't high enough in rank. That's fine, as long as it's well telegraphed. I don't want to buy a ship and then find out I'm permanently crippled by too low crew count. Also, Can we lose rank? If I get demoted will me ship become useless to me? Could kinda suck... And on equipping, I know a lot of this hasn't really been discussed (anywhere I've seen at least), but I don't want to buy a third rate and find it's just full of 6 pd cannons, requiring an expensive re-arming...

Again, that's just my ideal. I'm not saying that's what it has to be, or necessarily what it should be like. And again, as long as buying ships seems worthwhile, I'll definitely be doing it.

[Magnum]

While there are a few things you can do to make a ship "nifty" - nice paint etc. - without making it more "kick ass", there are certainly limits to that.

 

If on the other hand anytime there is a mechanism built to shorten time spans, it is traditional for the builders to charge a "toll" to use it.

 

Those who want to pay a few pennies to use the time saver can - and those who want to save a few pennies can too - everyone wins!

 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Henry d'Esterre Darby
Edited to remove privileged information.

[Similon]

While there are a few things you can do to make a ship "nifty" - nice paint etc. - without making it more "kick ass", there are certainly limits to that.

 

If on the other hand anytime there is a mechanism built to shorten time spans, it is traditional for the builders to charge a "toll" to use it.

 

Those who want to pay a few pennies to use the time saver can - and those who want to save a few pennies can too - everyone wins!

 

For Fast Travel - I believe they've said that you can insta-hop across the map, but your ships can't.

I would be strongly opposed to allowing people to pay to teleport ships, especially if it was the only means of teleporting a ship.

[SueMyChin]

Yeh, that's not a great idea. It would add more problems than it would solve.

 

For instance, you could chase a ship towards port X and have a friend jump to that port to intercept...

 

It would mean players could theoretically jump around and never be in a position to be attacked.

[Magnum]

For Fast Travel - I believe they've said that you can insta-hop across the map, but your ships can't.

I would be strongly opposed to allowing people to pay to teleport ships, especially if it was the only means of teleporting a ship.

 

As it is being used now in the open world - your ship goes with you - so you don't end up swimming when you get there.

 

Yeh, that's not a great idea. It would add more problems than it would solve.

 

For instance, you could chase a ship towards port X and have a friend jump to that port to intercept...

 

It would mean players could theoretically jump around and never be in a position to be attacked.

 

In the Open world as it is now there is teleporting - it simply moves your backdrop (your location on the map) from say the backdrop where you are to one of several ports - or you can imagine it moves you.

 

You can see the selection screen in some of the early screen shots on OW.

 

No point grousing about things already DONE.....

Edited April 6, 2015 by ampaholic

[Magnum]

no no no no no no - you could only jump from port "A" say Havana to port "B" say Santo Domingo - not just anywhere to just anywhere. There has already been LOTS of talk about the teleporting mechanics possible - we don't yet know how the finished game will work.

 

And of course your ship would go with you - there are not going to be any "other" avatars. Plus you would end up swimming without it, and most sailors of this era couldn't swim.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ampaholic

[Mirones]

Teleporting is only a dev feature we use it mainly after checking an reworked area  to start from the beginnign without sailing 3 hours back and save us time for finding bugs. dont spread false rumors about it.

[Jupe]

3hrs of sailing to a port, wow. Trade run would take 6hrs... Hope the profit will be good

[Mirones]

it wont take you 3 hours to the next port

[Magnum]

Back to how the dev's might get a regular flow of money - without making it "pay to win" - I think that is the just of this thread.

 

I think any system that relies on "the goodness of people's hearts" is destined to under perform, whereas a system that relies on people's competitiveness and desire to get ahead will perform well.

 

But perhaps the peacock gene is alive and well in our future player base - so strictly cosmetic "spiffs" will do the trick?

 

I might pay a nickel to cut a three hour cruise to 1/2 hour ... just sayin ...

Edited April 7, 2015 by ampaholic

[Bixol]

In my opinion having premium ships that don't offer you an advantage is a good way ad i think i would buy one

As premium ships can't be lost i suppose it has infinite durability, that doesen't mean that it will be cheap to repair...

if i remember correctly some time ago admin talked about how costly it would be to use and mantain premium ships all the time.

also having differend ranks in game, you have to get promoted to have more crew to follow you and therefore be able to sail bigger ships.

Paying for shorter travel times, paying for teleportation, paying for faster harvesting of resources... That's what i see as pay to win!

Premium ships on their own aren't p2w, it all depens on how they get implemented...

reading many of admin's posts i trust the devs that they won't mess this up!

Edited April 7, 2015 by Bixol

[TheJRT]

Yeah... sorry but no, do you even realize the problems behind such a system, not ingame, but irl, hundreds of semi constant micro-transactions, many credit cards would be blocked because of fraud... Its not as easy, plus, premium equipment has always worked for various different games, do you even realize how many people would not play the game because of the micro-transactions? Plus, how can you say that it't not pay-to-win? the players who pay would have a SIGNIFICANT advantage over those who dont... While they wouldn't with premium ships...

 

 

JRT

[TheJRT]

What kind of a grind will there be? What exactly will the premium ships do to alleviate the grind?

 

By grind we mean making the money and Xp required to buy and use a ship, be it via commerce, fighting or exploring, etc.

[Sir Darric Vandhelm]

By grind we mean making the money and Xp required to buy and use a ship, be it via commerce, fighting or exploring, etc.

It could also be farming resources too to build and replace ships.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Sir Darric Vandhelm