Did I do it wrong?

[Prater]

My thoughts are, if there is one player left, teams need to realize they need to target sails and remove the last player's ability to maneuver.  Doesn't matter if it is a Trinc or Victory.  1 Broadside of chain from 3-4+ ships should be devastating, then switch to ball or double and the enemy will sink faster because you won't have to chase them.

[Grim DeGrim]

Unless it is a leeward Kite. Even long barrel Cannons will struggle to find the target...

[Guthwait]

The only real question is, did you want to quit?  If you didn't, then no, you did no wrong.  Others can leave the match when they sink and start a new one, the time issue is bs.  If you did want to quit but stayed, then the answer is still no.  You forced no one to stay since wins don't count, yet.  So you did no wrong, either way.  People need to quit complaining as you still get credit for the points you earned.  Stay, don't stay, doesn't matter.

[Grim DeGrim]

The OP asked a series of questions:

#1: was it wrong? All agree it is within the rules and not "wrong".

#2: where there is no chance in winning, is this activity of prolonging the match considered "rude" or poor Etiquette? . Most, if you read the posts closely, have indicated that it is rude / unsportsmanlike.

It has nothing to do with complaining. These are direct responses to his inquiry.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Guthwait]

Considering the OP stated people were complaining in general chat, my statement on those who complain stands.  As far as what most others were saying about rude/unsportmanlike, my statement still stands.  No one is forced to remain, we choose to do so.  Should the devs decide that wins count again, are the same people gave Mr. Davies a hard time in chat still going to complain because he just didn't furl his sails and accept defeat?  That Mr. Davies received grief is the real issue, not whether he should have stayed and fought, or just allowed the game to end.

[Grim DeGrim]

I guess we can agree to disagree.

[Guthwait]

I guess we can agree to disagree.

I can agree with that statement.

[GreatScott]

Just running away to make the battle last longer then it needs to be is troll and you would be a dick for doing it.  What is completely fine and part of the game is to kite, for lack of a better word,  while still firing and actually attempting to win (even if it is near impossible).  Once in open world, when you are able to escape from battles then running right from the get go to save your ship would obviously be fine.

[Xander Tyrann]

I think its okay as long as you are still fighting. One thing i believe in is to make sure you die before the time runs out, just to give victory to the team that deserves it. Personally i would just load double and charge. You would still do decent damage that way.

[AwkwardDavies]

Also, think about the wasted time for you.

 

I didn't actually consider it wasted time, as I was fighting the entire time (well, re-positioning too, but that's part of the fight).  I have sat through the ends of games that were rather tedious, but I've seen odd things happen late in the game too. It's worth staying and watching to learn new techniques of dealing with tough fights.  

[AwkwardDavies]

Just running away to make the battle last longer then it needs to be is troll and you would be a dick for doing it.  What is completely fine and part of the game is to kite, for lack of a better word,  while still firing and actually attempting to win (even if it is near impossible).  Once in open world, when you are able to escape from battles then running right from the get go to save your ship would obviously be fine.

I sure hope that's the way it works!  That's more realistic.  Sometimes I'm a bit nonplussed to find myself in battle with everything from Cutters to Santi's.  It would just not happen IRL. 

[AwkwardDavies]

Great discussion folks, thank you for everything said so far.  I've learned a bit about how y'all think, and I've learned a new term (kiting) though I'm still not wholly clear on its meaning. 

 

Is 'kiting' to be understood as simply running away to stretch the battle?  For instance, if everyone is far to the NW and I sneak far to the SE to avoid battle (at THIS stage of the game's evolution, clearly it will change as it matures) then I'm 'kiting' and being rude to the other players. Or is it any time I keep fighting with little (but not no) chance of victory? Which, as we have no 'strike colors' option, is certain to happen frequently. 

 

I'm going to stick with the first definition, running to avoid battle. My take on the multitude of responses is that no one likes the enemy to force time to expire by hiding. Or just running too fast to hit. If you're not shooting, then you're not really fighting, or playing the game in fact. If you are fighting, and have any hope of doing real damage then it's okay to continue to fight. Whether that fight is shoot-run-turn-shoot-run-turn..., or diving into the mass of the enemy loaded for bear is still debated.  My personal preference is, obviously, the former. But I understand what some of you (e.g., Grim) are saying, and consider it a valid point. One I will consider when deciding what to do at the end-of-game when I'm most likely to go over the standing part of the fore-sheet.

 

Also, after reading the considerable breadth of opinion on this, I'm quite happy I did NOT mention any player by name. Clearly he/she/they had a point he/she/they thought valid, as do we all. I certainly enjoyed this discussion (long may it go on!) far more than I would have so enjoyed a flame-war. 

[Grim DeGrim]

I'll press the point just a bit, I promise to leave it at this:

 

• What is the motivation to drag it out when the battle is lost?
  1. Is it the additional damage?
  2. To "Give it all you got" and go down fighting?
  3. To ...? 
• And if it is either/or/both of options #1 and #2, why is kiting the method of choice over charging in with double shot (which accomplishes both #1 & #2 in equal or more effective measures in a deathmatch)?

 

I know this puts you on the spot, but you did start the thread with some intent  - knowing full well that your view point would be scrutinized.  We may as well have a clear line of sight on your train of thought.

 

Thanks,

Grim

[Grim DeGrim]

Definitions:

 

Kiting:  Staying at the edge of combat, typically turning and firing, using speed and range to stay out of a direct or close range engagement.

 

High-Lee Kiting (Mr. Doran's Treatise):  staying at the edge combat, using speed and range to stay out of a direct or close range engagement.  The leeward heel generally provides more range for the kiter, whereas the chasers (whom are windward) have shorter range due to unfavorable heel...meaning kiter can hit the chaser, while the chaser has insufficient range.

 

Running:  Running in a straight line without attempting to engaging in any combat. 

 

Griefing / Running / Kiting:  On occasion, as a form of griefing in other games, players will continuously fire, while running away, on occasion "just in time" to prevent the battle from ending, essentially trapping the combatant in the instance, as their ship is faster running away.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[StormtrooperCaptain]

I've had folks with small and fast ships flee to the outer rim of the map just for the sake of "dragging it out" if you do this, you're a troll.

But if you actively engage whilst kiting the edges of the map, you're still fighting and still a threat. No problem with kiting -- but there is a problem if you run out of spite in this arena game mode.

[Grim DeGrim]

All for it in a 1v1 or in a close match where it is not decided.  I believe most of this is in the context of "the match is lost".

[AwkwardDavies]

Also, think about the wasted time for you.

 

I can complete an PvE match in 10 minutes easy. If you drag your pvp match out 20 minutes kiting then you are loosing out on efficiency of progress. When your kiting (especially against bigger ships) then you aren't doing much damage because of penetration values at range. In a pve match in a small ship I can do at least 2500 damage a round so 5000 damage in the 20 minutes it will take you to do maybe 500 by kiting.

I understand your point here re: maximizing damage points. But again, not my focus. I'm playing because I like playing the game. The points are a nice measure of success, but it is having fun that means most, eh? After all, I'm not going to ever be allowed to captain a real square rigger. I had enough trouble with a 26' sloop!

[AwkwardDavies]

I'll press the point just a bit, I promise to leave it at this:

 

• What is the motivation to drag it out when the battle is lost?
  1. Is it the additional damage?
  2. To "Give it all you got" and go down fighting?
  3. To ...? 
• And if it is either/or/both of options #1 and #2, why is kiting the method of choice over charging in with double shot (which accomplishes both #1 & #2 in equal or more effective measures in a deathmatch)?

 

I know this puts you on the spot, but you did start the thread with some intent  - knowing full well that your view point would be scrutinized.  We may as well have a clear line of sight on your train of thought.

 

Thanks,

Grim

Press away Grim! Please, you won't offend by discussing this to whatever end point. Why continue? Let me think...

 

1. Because it is fun. I play this game to have fun. It's a game. If it's not fun I won't be back, eh?  So I had fun fighting to the end. Shooting the buggers that were trying to kill me, and making them WORK for it gives me pleasure. 

 

2. Because it's more 'real'.  I know, I just said "It's a game", but part of what makes it fun is the level of realism. It's like a movie. Movies are not real, physics in movies are laughable. And sometimes I have to say "I agreed to suspend my disbelief, not hang it by the neck until dead!".  That's why I'd love to see a choice of 'hauling down the colors'.  I fight on because it is my best choice, but I'd be happier to surrender and save my crew in the really bad cases. 

 

3. To improve my skills.  Running from three bigger, badder ships in a damaged frigate is a hell of a way to learn how to use manual sails for quick wearing, when to tack instead, when to flee before the wind.  I figured out when to turn, how to hit best from various distance and position, and sadly...how to swim.  

 

And you're absolutely right; I posted, any heat generated is mine. 

[Grim DeGrim]

I'll give you the +1

 

Thank you for answering.  I will belabor it no further

[.:Lt.Westen:.]

Tonight near the end of the game I had a player on the other team making ... well, comments about my play. I thought at first he was joking, so laughed it off. Turns out he was serious, and made it clear in the 'tween games chat that I was an idiot and a bad player and didn't know what I was doing; and to top all I was rude and inconsiderate.  Why?

 

Because I didn't give up. He was mad that the game went 10 minutes longer because they had to chase me down. I spent my time running, then jigging to fire into the pursuers, then turning the other way and shooting my pursuers. I'll grant you that I was totally outclassed by the three on the other team. And I was the last one alive on my team. But this user really wanted me to just give up and let them kill me to save time. 

 

Now, I thought the game timer that bumps the game out after an hour was there because games could last that long. This one was around 35 minutes I think. And I did mention to this player that he could have dropped out if he was tired of chasing me and drop into another battle. That didn't help.

 

So, what's the consensus? Did I screw up by fighting to the end, or is that the  point of the game? If it's considered rude to fight a losing battle by the majority of respondents I'll change my play.

 

Thanks for your input!

No or at least that's what i think historically you were doing the right thing saving ship and crew. In all he was the rude one ,he needed to be calm and level headed 

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

No or at least that's what i think historically you were doing the right thing saving ship and crew. In all he was the rude one ,he needed to be calm and level headed 

 

One small thought - applying historical behaviors to a system that has no loss, no setback if you're destroyed, no risk to one's self isn't the best approach in my opinion.  Once we have Open World, where you may want to try and save your ship and crew from a superior force to preserve them and your ship, making a tactical withdrawal will be an excellent idea.  In the current Sea Trials, it's a tad boorish in my opinion.  But as Admin has mentioned, since it truly doesn't matter either way, the pursuers can leave the battle just as easily as the pursued, so it's a wash ethically.  

[Kaaru62]

I found early on you could quit the battle and still get your points. I don't care about runners anymore, I just let them go and quit the battle. but then I don't care about winning or losing, as long as I get to blast something with my carronades before sinking.

[Captain Corcoran]

I think if your playing in the 'spirit' of the game then do what you want, you paid to play as a ship captain, your shooting the enemy with decent damage, kite turn shoot, kite turn shoot - rinse and repeat. who's to know you might hit the powder stash!?! no one should dictate to you how to play, let alone insult you to boot. anyway... if it were me id keep shooting (if i was making a dent in the armour, but only if i had the time(on the timer) and the damage to do it in the time alotted)..

 

I suppose it depends on the circumstance. I might get bored and just suicide. i duno. are you playing for the benefit of yourself or others? or for both...

[Jade Talon]

Generally in smaller ships I will play cat and knife-wielding mouse. Not running away mind you, but keeping range and positioning to be able to deal damage and minimize the amount of return-fire. I feel better equipped in the larger ships after getting some of that experience.

 

Larger ships, generally those battles become fairly clear who will win in the end... and since there are no drawbacks, it is more fun for myself to just sit and deal damage waiting for the end to come.

[MarcoRossolini]

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy."

-Horatio Nelson

 

There's nothing more satisfying than shoving a double shotted broadside straight at the enemy at pointblank range as you sink.

 

But I think a lot about this sort of thing comes down to temperament. To me, running away from a fight that's been lost and there's no chance of success now is unthinkable, I just go in because I get more damage and its just fun.

 

If there's a chance of victory against superior odds however, I'd definitely kite or whatever to try to get an advantage. I did that successfully as a trinc vs 2 other trincs and destroyed one before the other got me.